XMPP Council - 2021-12-08

  1. sonny has left
  2. sonny has joined
  3. debacle has left
  4. Kev has left
  5. Kev has joined
  6. moparisthebest has left
  7. moparisthebest has joined
  8. SouL has joined
  9. alex11 has left
  10. Tobias has joined
  11. me9 has joined
  12. ChronosX88 has left
  13. msavoritias has joined
  14. Kev has left
  15. Kev has joined
  16. ChronosX88 has joined
  17. me9 has left
  18. ChronosX88 has left
  19. ChronosX88 has joined
  20. sonny has left
  21. sonny has joined
  22. ChronosX88 has left
  23. ChronosX88 has joined
  24. sonny has left
  25. sonny has joined
  26. sonny has left
  27. sonny has joined
  28. moparisthebest has left
  29. moparisthebest has joined
  30. sonny has left
  31. sonny has joined
  32. Kev has left
  33. sonny has left
  34. sonny has joined
  35. Kev has joined
  36. Kev has left
  37. Kev has joined
  38. Ingolf has joined
  39. sonny has left
  40. sonny has joined
  41. ChronosX88 has left
  42. ChronosX88 has joined
  43. debacle has joined
  44. Kev has left
  45. Kev has joined
  46. marc0s has left
  47. marc0s has joined
  48. mdosch has left
  49. mdosch has joined
  50. marc0s has left
  51. marc0s has joined
  52. ChronosX88 has left
  53. ChronosX88 has joined
  54. Kev has left
  55. Kev has joined
  56. marc0s has left
  57. marc0s has joined
  58. marc0s has left
  59. marc0s has joined
  60. marc0s has left
  61. marc0s has joined
  62. marc0s has left
  63. marc0s has joined
  64. debacle has left
  65. marc0s has left
  66. debacle has joined
  67. sonny has left
  68. sonny has joined
  69. marc0s has joined
  70. sonny has left
  71. sonny has joined
  72. sonny has left
  73. sonny has joined
  74. Kev has left
  75. Kev has joined
  76. pprrks has left
  77. ChronosX88 has left
  78. ChronosX88 has joined
  79. sonny has left
  80. sonny has joined
  81. mdosch has left
  82. mdosch has joined
  83. mdosch has left
  84. mdosch has joined
  85. mdosch has left
  86. mdosch has joined
  87. mdosch has left
  88. mdosch has joined
  89. mdosch has left
  90. mdosch has joined
  91. sonny has left
  92. mdosch has left
  93. mdosch has joined
  94. mdosch has left
  95. mdosch has joined
  96. mdosch has left
  97. mdosch has joined
  98. mdosch has left
  99. mdosch has joined
  100. mdosch has left
  101. mdosch has joined
  102. moparisthebest Almost that time
  103. jonas’ almost!
  104. daniel It's time
  105. daniel Good morning everyone
  106. daniel 1) Roll call
  107. jonas’ 👋
  108. moparisthebest Hello
  109. Ge0rG good morning
  110. daniel do we get a larma?
  111. larma yes 🙂
  112. daniel 2) Agenda bashing
  113. daniel I have two updates from the editor that weren’t on the original agenda
  114. daniel 3) Editor updates
  115. daniel jonas’, (with his editor hat on) has started the Last Call for XEP-0424 (Message Retraction) and XEP-0425 (Message Moderation)
  116. daniel we are going to vote on that in two weeks.
  117. jonas’ not quite correct
  118. daniel oh?
  119. jonas’ I took the holidays into account and let the LC expire only in january
  120. jonas’ (making use of the "at least 14d" rule)
  121. daniel good guy jonas’ thinking ahead
  122. jonas’ for reference: > This Last Call begins today and shall end at the close of business on 2022-01-04.
  123. jonas’ I had nearly typed 2021-01-04, so I feel very proud for having spotted that before hitting push ;)
  124. daniel in any case we are going to vote on that after the hollidays. so make sure you are following the mailing list discussion
  125. jonas’ </interjection>
  126. daniel 4) Items for voting
  127. daniel a) XEP-0459: Replace deprecated XEP-0411 with XEP-0402 (https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/1129)
  128. Ge0rG > so make sure you are following the mailing list discussion And please also contribute to it!
  129. daniel have we ever done changes to compliance suits after they became draft?
  130. jonas’ I am generally +1, but I think there's an editorial mistake in there
  131. daniel is this in the spirit of the CS?
  132. daniel i mean i generally agree on the change
  133. Ge0rG I'm a bit lost with all the bookmarks formats. We recently deprecated 0411, but we also lost something in the way, right?
  134. jonas’ daniel, I think so. our goal should be to push them to final by the beginning of 2022.
  135. Ge0rG daniel: I'd say that all bets are off until January 1st
  136. Ge0rG so yes, we should make useful changes to CS'22
  137. daniel fair enough
  138. jonas’ this is also a clear oversight, recommending a deprecated protocol makes no sense
  139. Ge0rG +1 then
  140. moparisthebest I'm +1 on it
  141. daniel +1
  142. jonas’ +1
  143. larma +1
  144. jonas’ daniel, do you have +w on https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KyQCSGAsP-nHmH1X_EQOO-MfMzqSMxgBYGRlloAhxxY/edit#gid=0 ?
  145. daniel jonas’, not yet
  146. jonas’ daniel, do you have a google account I can add?
  147. daniel daniel@gultsch.de
  148. daniel shouldn’t we start a new one though?
  149. jonas’ there's an empty sheet next to the "master" sheet I helpfully clobbered
  150. jonas’ might also be worth trying to duplicate and clean out the master one :)
  151. jonas’ either way, I see this passed unanimously
  152. daniel that's something we can figure out after the meeting i guess
  153. daniel b) XEP-0060: Release version 1.23.0 (https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/1126)
  154. daniel probably editorial only
  155. daniel but doesn’t hurt to vote on it
  156. jonas’ +1
  157. daniel +1
  158. moparisthebest is it adding a MUST ?
  159. jonas’ moparisthebest, the feature is already defined in the document
  160. moparisthebest > In that case, the service MUST only change the submitted configuration options.
  161. moparisthebest (in the case of only submitting a partial form)
  162. moparisthebest yea, I think the *other* MUST already exists and is fine
  163. jonas’ oh
  164. jonas’ was that always there
  165. jonas’ well, good we passed it through here
  166. moparisthebest I mean this makes sense and is the correct thing to do I think
  167. moparisthebest and maybe all impls already do this and we could just let it slide...
  168. jonas’ I think it was previously undefined
  169. jonas’ and I seem to have seen some discussion in prosody@ which suggests that it's in fact not how all implementations work today
  170. larma I haven't thought about this through completely, but wouldn't a SHOULD be more sensible in this case?
  171. moparisthebest of the 3 changes this is the only one that gave me pause, other two are perfectly fine and just editorial
  172. jonas’ yep, that one is definitely problematic
  173. jonas’ I suggest we let the editor inform the author that this should go to the list first
  174. moparisthebest I tend to think this has to be a MUST or MUST NOT or something, otherwise what use is "you can't tell what this will do" ?
  175. jonas’ moparisthebest, well, the original flow is that you fetch the complete form and then submit it
  176. moparisthebest if it's not a MUST, then you MUST never submit a subset because you have no idea what it'll do
  177. moparisthebest right, so if this MUST doesn't exist, you have to keep submitting the complete form
  178. jonas’ so you'll "never" submit a partial form (barring service updates racing with your form submission and ignoring the general inefficiency of that flow)
  179. jonas’ so the flow in the document basically does not allow a shortcut.
  180. moparisthebest I think only one of these 2 things make sense: 1. you MUST always fetch+submit a full form, no ambiguity as to what happens 2. if you MAY submit a subset, then the service MUST only change the submitted ones, and not the others
  181. daniel i'm withdrawing my +1 - i think this needs list discussion. to see how implementations handle that currently
  182. jonas’ which means that we could add submitting a partial form as a feature.
  183. Ge0rG on-list
  184. moparisthebest 2 is nicer, but if it makes existing impls non-compliant it's bad
  185. moparisthebest I'll write these up for the list later if no one else beats me to it
  186. moparisthebest so yea, on-list
  187. daniel sounds good. thank you moparisthebest
  188. jonas’ moparisthebest, as we do not know all implementations and it removes a subset of the space of "implementation defined", it will make some implementation non-compliant probably.
  189. jonas’ moparisthebest, thanks.
  190. daniel 5) Pending votes
  191. daniel none so far
  192. daniel 6) Date of next
  193. daniel +1w wfm
  194. jonas’ +1w wfm. I might not be available at +2w, though it's a normal work day for me so I should.
  195. moparisthebest tentatively wfm, new job and all that
  196. jonas’ +1w wfm. I might not be available at +2w, though it's a normal work day for me so I probably will.
  197. daniel (which then might be the last one before the holidays. but we can decide that next week)
  198. jonas’ moparisthebest, good luck!
  199. moparisthebest thanks!
  200. jonas’ moparisthebest, would you post to the list if the slot stops working for you permanently and/or if you cannot attend next week?
  201. moparisthebest yep!
  202. daniel Ge0rG, larma ?
  203. Ge0rG +1W WFM
  204. larma +1
  205. daniel 7) AOB
  206. me9 has joined
  207. moparisthebest nothing from me
  208. jonas’ from me neither
  209. daniel ok. i see nobody typing. This means we are done for today
  210. daniel 8) Close
  211. daniel Thanks everyone
  212. jonas’ thanks daniel
  213. Ge0rG thanks daniel
  214. moparisthebest thanks all, till next time
  215. larma thanks daniel 🙂
  216. Wojtek has joined
  217. marc0s has left
  218. marc0s has joined
  219. marc0s has left
  220. marc0s has joined
  221. ChronosX88 has left
  222. ChronosX88 has joined
  223. sonny has joined
  224. sonny has left
  225. sonny has joined
  226. marc0s has left
  227. marc0s has joined
  228. debacle has left
  229. marc0s has left
  230. marc0s has joined
  231. marc0s has left
  232. marc0s has joined
  233. stpeter has joined
  234. marc0s has left
  235. marc0s has joined
  236. sonny has left
  237. sonny has joined
  238. marc0s has left
  239. marc0s has joined
  240. marc0s has left
  241. marc0s has joined
  242. marc0s has left
  243. marc0s has joined
  244. stpeter has left
  245. Ingolf has left
  246. Ingolf has joined
  247. sonny has left
  248. sonny has joined
  249. stpeter has joined
  250. debacle has joined
  251. Wojtek has left
  252. stpeter has left
  253. ChronosX88 has left
  254. ChronosX88 has joined
  255. sonny has left
  256. SouL has left
  257. Tobias has left
  258. marc0s has left
  259. marc0s has joined
  260. ChronosX88 has left
  261. ChronosX88 has joined
  262. marc0s has left
  263. marc0s has joined
  264. marc0s has left
  265. marc0s has joined
  266. debacle has left
  267. msavoritias has left
  268. SouL has joined
  269. ChronosX88 has left
  270. ChronosX88 has joined
  271. me9 has left
  272. marc0s has left
  273. marc0s has joined