XMPP Council - 2021-12-08

  1. sonny has left

  2. sonny has joined

  3. debacle has left

  4. Kev has left

  5. Kev has joined

  6. moparisthebest has left

  7. moparisthebest has joined

  8. SouL has joined

  9. alex11 has left

  10. Tobias has joined

  11. me9 has joined

  12. ChronosX88 has left

  13. msavoritias has joined

  14. Kev has left

  15. Kev has joined

  16. ChronosX88 has joined

  17. me9 has left

  18. ChronosX88 has left

  19. ChronosX88 has joined

  20. sonny has left

  21. sonny has joined

  22. ChronosX88 has left

  23. ChronosX88 has joined

  24. sonny has left

  25. sonny has joined

  26. sonny has left

  27. sonny has joined

  28. moparisthebest has left

  29. moparisthebest has joined

  30. sonny has left

  31. sonny has joined

  32. Kev has left

  33. sonny has left

  34. sonny has joined

  35. Kev has joined

  36. Kev has left

  37. Kev has joined

  38. Ingolf has joined

  39. sonny has left

  40. sonny has joined

  41. ChronosX88 has left

  42. ChronosX88 has joined

  43. debacle has joined

  44. Kev has left

  45. Kev has joined

  46. marc0s has left

  47. marc0s has joined

  48. mdosch has left

  49. mdosch has joined

  50. marc0s has left

  51. marc0s has joined

  52. ChronosX88 has left

  53. ChronosX88 has joined

  54. Kev has left

  55. Kev has joined

  56. marc0s has left

  57. marc0s has joined

  58. marc0s has left

  59. marc0s has joined

  60. marc0s has left

  61. marc0s has joined

  62. marc0s has left

  63. marc0s has joined

  64. debacle has left

  65. marc0s has left

  66. debacle has joined

  67. sonny has left

  68. sonny has joined

  69. marc0s has joined

  70. sonny has left

  71. sonny has joined

  72. sonny has left

  73. sonny has joined

  74. Kev has left

  75. Kev has joined

  76. pprrks has left

  77. ChronosX88 has left

  78. ChronosX88 has joined

  79. sonny has left

  80. sonny has joined

  81. mdosch has left

  82. mdosch has joined

  83. mdosch has left

  84. mdosch has joined

  85. mdosch has left

  86. mdosch has joined

  87. mdosch has left

  88. mdosch has joined

  89. mdosch has left

  90. mdosch has joined

  91. sonny has left

  92. mdosch has left

  93. mdosch has joined

  94. mdosch has left

  95. mdosch has joined

  96. mdosch has left

  97. mdosch has joined

  98. mdosch has left

  99. mdosch has joined

  100. mdosch has left

  101. mdosch has joined

  102. moparisthebest

    Almost that time

  103. jonas’


  104. daniel

    It's time

  105. daniel

    Good morning everyone

  106. daniel

    1) Roll call

  107. jonas’


  108. moparisthebest


  109. Ge0rG

    good morning

  110. daniel

    do we get a larma?

  111. larma

    yes 🙂

  112. daniel

    2) Agenda bashing

  113. daniel

    I have two updates from the editor that weren’t on the original agenda

  114. daniel

    3) Editor updates

  115. daniel

    jonas’, (with his editor hat on) has started the Last Call for XEP-0424 (Message Retraction) and XEP-0425 (Message Moderation)

  116. daniel

    we are going to vote on that in two weeks.

  117. jonas’

    not quite correct

  118. daniel


  119. jonas’

    I took the holidays into account and let the LC expire only in january

  120. jonas’

    (making use of the "at least 14d" rule)

  121. daniel

    good guy jonas’ thinking ahead

  122. jonas’

    for reference: > This Last Call begins today and shall end at the close of business on 2022-01-04.

  123. jonas’

    I had nearly typed 2021-01-04, so I feel very proud for having spotted that before hitting push ;)

  124. daniel

    in any case we are going to vote on that after the hollidays. so make sure you are following the mailing list discussion

  125. jonas’


  126. daniel

    4) Items for voting

  127. daniel

    a) XEP-0459: Replace deprecated XEP-0411 with XEP-0402 (https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/1129)

  128. Ge0rG

    > so make sure you are following the mailing list discussion And please also contribute to it!

  129. daniel

    have we ever done changes to compliance suits after they became draft?

  130. jonas’

    I am generally +1, but I think there's an editorial mistake in there

  131. daniel

    is this in the spirit of the CS?

  132. daniel

    i mean i generally agree on the change

  133. Ge0rG

    I'm a bit lost with all the bookmarks formats. We recently deprecated 0411, but we also lost something in the way, right?

  134. jonas’

    daniel, I think so. our goal should be to push them to final by the beginning of 2022.

  135. Ge0rG

    daniel: I'd say that all bets are off until January 1st

  136. Ge0rG

    so yes, we should make useful changes to CS'22

  137. daniel

    fair enough

  138. jonas’

    this is also a clear oversight, recommending a deprecated protocol makes no sense

  139. Ge0rG

    +1 then

  140. moparisthebest

    I'm +1 on it

  141. daniel


  142. jonas’


  143. larma


  144. jonas’

    daniel, do you have +w on https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KyQCSGAsP-nHmH1X_EQOO-MfMzqSMxgBYGRlloAhxxY/edit#gid=0 ?

  145. daniel

    jonas’, not yet

  146. jonas’

    daniel, do you have a google account I can add?

  147. daniel


  148. daniel

    shouldn’t we start a new one though?

  149. jonas’

    there's an empty sheet next to the "master" sheet I helpfully clobbered

  150. jonas’

    might also be worth trying to duplicate and clean out the master one :)

  151. jonas’

    either way, I see this passed unanimously

  152. daniel

    that's something we can figure out after the meeting i guess

  153. daniel

    b) XEP-0060: Release version 1.23.0 (https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/1126)

  154. daniel

    probably editorial only

  155. daniel

    but doesn’t hurt to vote on it

  156. jonas’


  157. daniel


  158. moparisthebest

    is it adding a MUST ?

  159. jonas’

    moparisthebest, the feature is already defined in the document

  160. moparisthebest

    > In that case, the service MUST only change the submitted configuration options.

  161. moparisthebest

    (in the case of only submitting a partial form)

  162. moparisthebest

    yea, I think the *other* MUST already exists and is fine

  163. jonas’


  164. jonas’

    was that always there

  165. jonas’

    well, good we passed it through here

  166. moparisthebest

    I mean this makes sense and is the correct thing to do I think

  167. moparisthebest

    and maybe all impls already do this and we could just let it slide...

  168. jonas’

    I think it was previously undefined

  169. jonas’

    and I seem to have seen some discussion in prosody@ which suggests that it's in fact not how all implementations work today

  170. larma

    I haven't thought about this through completely, but wouldn't a SHOULD be more sensible in this case?

  171. moparisthebest

    of the 3 changes this is the only one that gave me pause, other two are perfectly fine and just editorial

  172. jonas’

    yep, that one is definitely problematic

  173. jonas’

    I suggest we let the editor inform the author that this should go to the list first

  174. moparisthebest

    I tend to think this has to be a MUST or MUST NOT or something, otherwise what use is "you can't tell what this will do" ?

  175. jonas’

    moparisthebest, well, the original flow is that you fetch the complete form and then submit it

  176. moparisthebest

    if it's not a MUST, then you MUST never submit a subset because you have no idea what it'll do

  177. moparisthebest

    right, so if this MUST doesn't exist, you have to keep submitting the complete form

  178. jonas’

    so you'll "never" submit a partial form (barring service updates racing with your form submission and ignoring the general inefficiency of that flow)

  179. jonas’

    so the flow in the document basically does not allow a shortcut.

  180. moparisthebest

    I think only one of these 2 things make sense: 1. you MUST always fetch+submit a full form, no ambiguity as to what happens 2. if you MAY submit a subset, then the service MUST only change the submitted ones, and not the others

  181. daniel

    i'm withdrawing my +1 - i think this needs list discussion. to see how implementations handle that currently

  182. jonas’

    which means that we could add submitting a partial form as a feature.

  183. Ge0rG


  184. moparisthebest

    2 is nicer, but if it makes existing impls non-compliant it's bad

  185. moparisthebest

    I'll write these up for the list later if no one else beats me to it

  186. moparisthebest

    so yea, on-list

  187. daniel

    sounds good. thank you moparisthebest

  188. jonas’

    moparisthebest, as we do not know all implementations and it removes a subset of the space of "implementation defined", it will make some implementation non-compliant probably.

  189. jonas’

    moparisthebest, thanks.

  190. daniel

    5) Pending votes

  191. daniel

    none so far

  192. daniel

    6) Date of next

  193. daniel

    +1w wfm

  194. jonas’

    +1w wfm. I might not be available at +2w, though it's a normal work day for me so I should.

  195. moparisthebest

    tentatively wfm, new job and all that

  196. jonas’

    +1w wfm. I might not be available at +2w, though it's a normal work day for me so I probably will.

  197. daniel

    (which then might be the last one before the holidays. but we can decide that next week)

  198. jonas’

    moparisthebest, good luck!

  199. moparisthebest


  200. jonas’

    moparisthebest, would you post to the list if the slot stops working for you permanently and/or if you cannot attend next week?

  201. moparisthebest


  202. daniel

    Ge0rG, larma ?

  203. Ge0rG

    +1W WFM

  204. larma


  205. daniel

    7) AOB

  206. me9 has joined

  207. moparisthebest

    nothing from me

  208. jonas’

    from me neither

  209. daniel

    ok. i see nobody typing. This means we are done for today

  210. daniel

    8) Close

  211. daniel

    Thanks everyone

  212. jonas’

    thanks daniel

  213. Ge0rG

    thanks daniel

  214. moparisthebest

    thanks all, till next time

  215. larma

    thanks daniel 🙂

  216. Wojtek has joined

  217. marc0s has left

  218. marc0s has joined

  219. marc0s has left

  220. marc0s has joined

  221. ChronosX88 has left

  222. ChronosX88 has joined

  223. sonny has joined

  224. sonny has left

  225. sonny has joined

  226. marc0s has left

  227. marc0s has joined

  228. debacle has left

  229. marc0s has left

  230. marc0s has joined

  231. marc0s has left

  232. marc0s has joined

  233. stpeter has joined

  234. marc0s has left

  235. marc0s has joined

  236. sonny has left

  237. sonny has joined

  238. marc0s has left

  239. marc0s has joined

  240. marc0s has left

  241. marc0s has joined

  242. marc0s has left

  243. marc0s has joined

  244. stpeter has left

  245. Ingolf has left

  246. Ingolf has joined

  247. sonny has left

  248. sonny has joined

  249. stpeter has joined

  250. debacle has joined

  251. Wojtek has left

  252. stpeter has left

  253. ChronosX88 has left

  254. ChronosX88 has joined

  255. sonny has left

  256. SouL has left

  257. Tobias has left

  258. marc0s has left

  259. marc0s has joined

  260. ChronosX88 has left

  261. ChronosX88 has joined

  262. marc0s has left

  263. marc0s has joined

  264. marc0s has left

  265. marc0s has joined

  266. debacle has left

  267. msavoritias has left

  268. SouL has joined

  269. ChronosX88 has left

  270. ChronosX88 has joined

  271. me9 has left

  272. marc0s has left

  273. marc0s has joined