XMPP Council - 2021-12-15


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  279. jonas’ meetings have overrun and there's a team christmas event @work, I might be semi-absent during todays meeting
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  281. Ge0rG team christmas. Mhm....
  282. Zash xmas @ Teams?!
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  284. daniel It's time
  285. Ge0rG It is
  286. daniel 1) Roll call
  287. Ge0rG
  288. moparisthebest hello!
  289. daniel a hopefully triple vaxed jonas’ is having a christmas party
  290. daniel but do we have a larma
  291. larma we do
  292. daniel 2) Agenda Bashing
  293. daniel i'm assuming no changes?
  294. daniel 3) Editors update
  295. daniel None. but keep in mind the last calls that are due on Jan 4th
  296. daniel 4) Pending votes
  297. daniel Everyone but jonas pending on XEP-0060: Release version 1.23.0 (https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/1126)
  298. daniel thank you moparisthebest for starting the list discussion
  299. moparisthebest sorry about being super late on starting that discussion...
  300. daniel does anyone want to vote on this during the meeting
  301. daniel i'm strongly leaning towards -1
  302. moparisthebest same (leaning towards -1 as-is), that seems to be list consensus too
  303. larma I'm also not very happy, but as list discussion is still ongoing, I'd rather delay voting further
  304. daniel i think this is to much of a change for a stable xep. it belongs into 0004
  305. larma I'm also not very happy with this, but as list discussion is still ongoing, I'd rather delay voting further
  306. Ge0rG but 0004 is Final.
  307. daniel as all xeps could (muc comes to mind) could potentially benefit from partial configuration submission
  308. moparisthebest unsure how this works from a process POV, if that one change was removed, I think everyone would be +1 or it'd just be editorial, the other 2 changes are fine
  309. daniel Ge0rG, yes. i'm thinking about an external flag or something. Or me might just not be able to do it
  310. daniel i mean the fact that 0004 is final doesn’t change the fact that this doesn't belong in 60
  311. daniel i think we can just instruct the edior to apply the editorial changes
  312. daniel or technically they can probably just do it
  313. daniel in any case let's just delay the voting until Jan 5th
  314. moparisthebest sounds good
  315. daniel with 2.5 people indicating that they are probably -1 (and only one veto being enough) i think i might know where this is going but doesn’t hurt to wait until next year with this
  316. daniel Date of next
  317. moparisthebest (I could certainly be convinced a +1 was fine, it's just not looking like that at the moment)
  318. Ge0rG Yeah, I think that with the ongoing list discussion and the 0004 suggestions, somebody™ should submit a proposed wording to 0004 anyway.
  319. daniel as indicated in the email i'm going to propose to take 2 weeks of and meet again on Jan 5th
  320. larma fine with me
  321. Ge0rG so that would be three weeks from now?
  322. daniel yes
  323. Ge0rG +1
  324. daniel moparisthebest, larma +3w?
  325. moparisthebest yep!
  326. larma yes
  327. daniel 6) AOB
  328. moparisthebest no AOB from me
  329. daniel ok. i don’t see anyone typing
  330. daniel 7) Close
  331. moparisthebest thanks daniel !
  332. daniel Thank you everyone. Have some nice hollidays. enjoy the time off
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  335. Ge0rG thank you, you too.
  336. Ge0rG Stay safe and healthy!
  337. larma Don't party too much, we still need you next year 🙂
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  343. Kev FWIW, I think the underlying change a) belongs in 4 and b) doesn't need to be phrased as a breaking change to 4. Really all we want to say is "People might submit partial forms. This has been unspecified in the past, but the expected meaning is 'I'm only trying to change what I submit'", and I don't think that needs be normative.
  344. stpeter What Kev says makes sense.
  345. jonas’ daniel, remote christmas party actually
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  359. moparisthebest in that case I hope your computer is properly vaxxed :P
  360. moparisthebest Kev, stpeter , but if it's not normative is it actually helpful? if I were trying to implement that I'd read that I always have to submit an entire form because I can't be sure what the service might do if not ?
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  364. flow I see the arguments for both sides. Having it non-normative could be the loophole that some want to modify a final XEP. And I doubt that it will make a different in practice (assuming non-normative here simply means not using RFC uppercase keywords). That said, I would lean towards adding a normative SHOULD to xep4.
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  367. moparisthebest my gut feeling is if we want a normative change because we'd like to submit partial forms, let's do it
  368. moparisthebest otherwise make an editorial change that just clarifies current behavior, ie "don't submit partial forms, it's unspecified what the server might do"
  369. moparisthebest what about a new feature the server can advertise to explicitly say "submitting partial forms is fine, we won't change other values" ?
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  373. flow moparisthebest, I share the feeling that we should do it
  374. Zash What a feeeeeeling
  375. flow moparisthebest, we did that feature annoucement in the past, e.g. with xep45, but my gut feeling is that it's maybe overkill in this case
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