XMPP Council - 2021-12-15

meetings have overrun and there's a team christmas event @work, I might be semi-absent during todays meeting

team christmas. Mhm....

xmas @ Teams?!

It's time

It is

1) Roll call

hello!

a hopefully triple vaxed jonas’ is having a christmas party

but do we have a larma

we do

2) Agenda Bashing

i'm assuming no changes?

3) Editors update

None. but keep in mind the last calls that are due on Jan 4th

4) Pending votes

Everyone but jonas pending on XEP-0060: Release version 1.23.0 (https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/1126)

thank you moparisthebest for starting the list discussion

sorry about being super late on starting that discussion...

does anyone want to vote on this during the meeting

i'm strongly leaning towards -1

same (leaning towards -1 as-is), that seems to be list consensus too

i think this is to much of a change for a stable xep. it belongs into 0004

I'm also not very happy with this, but as list discussion is still ongoing, I'd rather delay voting further ✏

but 0004 is Final.

as all xeps could (muc comes to mind) could potentially benefit from partial configuration submission

unsure how this works from a process POV, if that one change was removed, I think everyone would be +1 or it'd just be editorial, the other 2 changes are fine

Ge0rG, yes. i'm thinking about an external flag or something. Or me might just not be able to do it

i mean the fact that 0004 is final doesn’t change the fact that this doesn't belong in 60

i think we can just instruct the edior to apply the editorial changes

or technically they can probably just do it

in any case let's just delay the voting until Jan 5th

sounds good

with 2.5 people indicating that they are probably -1 (and only one veto being enough) i think i might know where this is going but doesn’t hurt to wait until next year with this

Date of next

(I could certainly be convinced a +1 was fine, it's just not looking like that at the moment)

Yeah, I think that with the ongoing list discussion and the 0004 suggestions, somebody™ should submit a proposed wording to 0004 anyway.

as indicated in the email i'm going to propose to take 2 weeks of and meet again on Jan 5th

fine with me

so that would be three weeks from now?

yes

+1

moparisthebest, larma +3w?

yep!

yes

6) AOB

no AOB from me

ok. i don’t see anyone typing

7) Close

thanks daniel !

Thank you everyone. Have some nice hollidays. enjoy the time off

thank you, you too.

Stay safe and healthy!

Don't party too much, we still need you next year 🙂

FWIW, I think the underlying change a) belongs in 4 and b) doesn't need to be phrased as a breaking change to 4. Really all we want to say is "People might submit partial forms. This has been unspecified in the past, but the expected meaning is 'I'm only trying to change what I submit'", and I don't think that needs be normative.

What Kev says makes sense.

daniel, remote christmas party actually

in that case I hope your computer is properly vaxxed :P

Kev, stpeter , but if it's not normative is it actually helpful? if I were trying to implement that I'd read that I always have to submit an entire form because I can't be sure what the service might do if not ?

I see the arguments for both sides. Having it non-normative could be the loophole that some want to modify a final XEP. And I doubt that it will make a different in practice (assuming non-normative here simply means not using RFC uppercase keywords). That said, I would lean towards adding a normative SHOULD to xep4.

my gut feeling is if we want a normative change because we'd like to submit partial forms, let's do it

otherwise make an editorial change that just clarifies current behavior, ie "don't submit partial forms, it's unspecified what the server might do"

what about a new feature the server can advertise to explicitly say "submitting partial forms is fine, we won't change other values" ?

moparisthebest, I share the feeling that we should do it

What a feeeeeeling

moparisthebest, we did that feature annoucement in the past, e.g. with xep45, but my gut feeling is that it's maybe overkill in this case