XMPP Council - 2022-08-03

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  173. moparisthebest o/
  174. Zash is typing a reply to Flows question
  175. jonas’ o/
  176. daniel Hi
  177. daniel It's time
  178. daniel 1) roll call
  179. moparisthebest hello
  180. daniel do we have Ge0rG?
  181. daniel and larma?
  182. jonas’ yes, next door
  183. jonas’ (Ge0rG anyway)
  184. Ge0rG is there
  185. daniel 2) Agenda bashing
  186. daniel nothing to bash I assume
  187. daniel 3) Editors update
  188. daniel no updates this week
  189. daniel 4) Items for voting
  190. daniel a) Move XEP-0215: External Service Discovery to stable
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  193. jonas’ I agree with Daniels/Zashes feedback
  194. moparisthebest if no one has once implemented push then maybe that bit should be removed first?
  195. Ge0rG I'd do a very long essay on why the format of the <service/> elements would be much better with a URI and how the registry is broken and there is no way for "service" vs "service-over-tls" etc, but generally +1
  196. daniel is my feedback only relevant for the next step though? meaning can it be removed later?
  197. daniel or do we need to remove it now before it becomes stable
  198. jonas’ daniel, technically, removing non-STUN/TURN cases in Draft would likely require a namespace bump
  199. jonas’ which we likely don't want
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  201. Zash quoting myself from the future: > However, I don't believe strongly enough to argue for a namespace bump.
  202. daniel getting around the NS bump is a good argument
  203. daniel to fix it before stable
  204. moparisthebest if no one has ever implemented it I wouldn't bother with the namespace bump, but that might be skirting rules
  205. jonas’ moparisthebest, that's ok for Experimental, not for Draft. In my book anyway.
  206. daniel > moparisthebest, that's ok for Experimental, not for Draft. In my book anyway. I agree
  207. Ge0rG I'm sorry but what exactly do you want to remove?
  208. daniel and yes somewhat related; I’m a bit on the fance wrt removing push to
  209. jonas’ I propose that whoever shepherds this drops push and non-STUN/TURN cases, renames this to "external media relay discovery" or something and be done with it.
  210. daniel Ge0rG, the ability to do non turn services
  211. Zash I've implemented the push thing IIRC. Idea was to push STUN/TURN immediately on connect to Jitsi Meet, which needs that fast.
  212. Ge0rG daniel: so you want to remove the `type` attribute?
  213. jonas’ Ge0rG, no, we need to keep that for stun vs turn
  214. Ge0rG so you want to remove the non-normative examples then?
  215. daniel the 'Extended information' will probably go away
  216. daniel and the examples
  217. daniel and maybe some wording changes and a title change
  218. daniel Zash fair enough on the push. I can see how that can be useful
  219. Ge0rG I suppose removing the 'Extended information' section would require a bump indeed.
  220. jonas’ (in Draft)
  221. Ge0rG in Stable?
  222. jonas’ Ge0rG, yes, that.
  223. jonas’ ok, I don't have strong opinions on push, but I certainly can see the benefit of ripping out anything unrelated to STUN or TURN
  224. daniel ok. sounds good
  225. jonas’ but I think we should run that by the list and poke the social media folks
  226. daniel -1 then
  227. jonas’ I'm not sure if edhelas or so has used this to announce jingle components or such things
  228. moparisthebest so if we have X implementations, and none of them implement that, we can remove it and do no bump and not one has to change *or* we can remove it and do a bump and then *all* of them have to change? one seems obviously better to me...
  229. jonas’ moparisthebest, your first line misses a "that we know of"
  230. jonas’ we're a standards org, not a secret cabal
  231. moparisthebest if they don't monitor the mailing list and it isn't open source I literally don't care
  232. Ge0rG and there are many deployments of standard xmpp in closed setups
  233. jonas’ daniel, I can write a mail to the list which summarizes the idea of dropping that and asking for anyone actively using anything except STUN/TURN
  234. daniel jonas’, sounds good. thank you
  235. daniel let's move on then
  236. daniel 5) Pending votes
  237. daniel - Georg on Proposed XMPP Extension: Pubsub Attachments
  238. Ge0rG I'm still pending, sorry.
  239. daniel ok. no worries
  240. daniel 6) Date of Next
  241. daniel +1w wfm
  242. Ge0rG +1W looks good so far
  243. moparisthebest +1w wfm
  244. daniel 7) AOB
  245. moparisthebest none here
  246. jonas’ here
  247. daniel jonas’, go ahead
  248. jonas’ I have two weeks of vacation in the beginning of September and I intend to make this also a vacation from XMPP
  249. jonas’ I'll likely hard drop out of all explicitly XMPP-related rooms/communication channels.
  250. jonas’ (including my shell server)
  251. jonas’ just as a heads up
  252. moparisthebest same for me, but end of september
  253. Ge0rG jonas’: have a great time! I'm also going to be on vacation, but in the middle of september, and I'll probably still check my xmpps
  254. jonas’ (Sept 1 -- Sept 14, incl.)
  255. moparisthebest mine is sept 16-27, sounds like sept is a wash :P
  256. jonas’ thanks, Ge0rG :-)
  257. jonas’ End of my AOB
  258. larma I also have something
  259. daniel ok. noted. I guess that'll be a slow month then. I'll probably be gone for a week in september as well. haven’t really decided on when yet
  260. daniel larma, go ahead
  261. larma I was wondering how we want to continue the alterntive content / partial fallback discussion.
  262. jonas’ I lack context, could you -v?
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  264. larma As you might remember, I proposed a XEP for fallback bodies a while ago which we decided was not fit because there was another XEP with the same name (although mostly different functionality)
  265. jonas’ oh, it's the time of the year again
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  267. larma But also we had a large discussion about whether we want to allow partial fallback bodies (which effectively means having alternative content depending on the XEPs supported by the recipient device) and there was not outcome of that discussion really
  268. jonas’ I get the impression that there are only terrible solutions available
  269. Ge0rG I agree with jonas’
  270. larma I created a PR to add the partial fallback body functionality of the proto xep into the existing XEP (https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/1188), but that obviously doesn't answer the question if that functionality is desired
  271. larma I can't say I'm a fan of alternative contents either, but to me it seems to be the only sensible way forward IF we want to support a heterogenous client landscape.
  272. jonas’ larma, whether the functionality is desired is not somethign the council can answer, really
  273. jonas’ that's for implementations to figure out
  274. jonas’ that's for implementations, their project owners and users to figure out
  275. Ge0rG I think that ugly fallback bodies are the best way to motivate client developers to add support for new XEPs
  276. jonas’ I don't disagree
  277. jonas’ I also think that fallback bodies are the only sensible way to add features which otherwise may lose subtleties in communication
  278. larma Anyway, I don't want council to decide on this, I'd rather like to get an idea of how to proceed here. Because the decision if the aforementioned PR should be merged needs to be done somehow.
  279. daniel sorry i had to look up the voting history 'Compatibility fallbacks' and 428
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  282. daniel sorry i had to look up the voting history of 'Compatibility fallbacks' and 428
  283. jonas’ larma, that's under dwds control, really
  284. jonas’ did you shoot him an email?
  285. daniel Ge0rG, voted compat fallbacks because he wanted that in 428.
  286. daniel i personally don’t care if it goes into 428 or a new xep; I’m also fine with the PR you created
  287. daniel but that's not really a council decision if it is merged. we could only do this by taking it away from dwd
  288. larma jonas’, I pinged him on GitHub, but I can also write another mail.
  289. jonas’ larma, yeah, I suggest to try an email. I don't read many github notifications either, just too much noise.
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  291. larma I also must say it's a bit weird for council to say "we're not going to accept the protoxep, because it needs to go into 428. And it's on dwd to decide if that happens" - because this puts a major ecosystem decision on dwd.
  292. jonas’ ... yes
  293. daniel personally i'm a fan of new xep rather than 'taking it away'
  294. larma I guess I'll just have to write a mail to dwd and we'll follow up on this in one of the next council meetings.
  295. daniel we are running up on the time limit here
  296. jonas’ larma, yes, that sounds like a good plan
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  298. daniel ok. let's see if dwd actively blocks this or has become inactive first. and if either of those is the case we might want to ask Ge0rG to reconsider the decision to block the 'compat fallback' proto xep
  299. daniel no further AOB?
  300. jonas’ none from me
  301. larma no
  302. daniel 8) Close
  303. daniel thank you all
  304. jonas’ thanks daniel
  305. larma Thanks daniel
  306. Ge0rG thanks!
  307. Zash Re xep-0215 push, the use case I mentioned would probably be better served by having it integrated with bind2 somehow, if that wasn't far in the future yet.
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  310. daniel Thanks for the email Zash. That's much better reasoning than I used
  311. Zash Thanks
  312. Zash Can't remember anyone caring about ftp either :) Only thing I can think of is the idea to provide a proxy to help anonymise requests to HTTP upload-ed files, which could be communicated via '215.
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