XMPP Council - 2022-09-28


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  131. jonas’ o/
  132. larma 👋
  133. jonas’ $ unicode 👋 U+1F44B WAVING HAND SIGN
  134. jonas’ daniel, moparisthebest?
  135. jonas’ Ge0rG,?
  136. jonas’ anyone?
  137. daniel Here. Sorry
  138. daniel 1) roll call
  139. jonas’ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xb6ZdLm8rnI maybe that triggers Ge0rG
  140. jonas’ I am here, fwiw
  141. larma Me too ;)
  142. jonas’ I get the impression we might've lost daniel again?
  143. daniel 2) Agenda bashing
  144. daniel nothing to bash
  145. jonas’ I'm more of a zsh type anyway
  146. daniel 3) Editors update * UPDATED: XEP-0440 (SASL Channel-Binding Type Capability) https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0440.html
  147. daniel go implement it by the way. channel binding is cool
  148. jonas’ ISTR I implemented SCRAM-PLUS some time
  149. daniel and with tls-exporter we also have all the building blocks now
  150. daniel 4) Items for voting
  151. daniel a) Proposed XMPP Extension: Events (https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/events.html)
  152. jonas’ I found the title very confusing
  153. daniel +1 I'm not really into calendar stuff so I can’t speak to whether or not it covers everything one would expect. but as an experimental xep it looks good enough to me
  154. jonas’ it notably is not about type='headline' "events" telling you about new items
  155. daniel yes I agree. I was also expecting some system notification event thing before I read it
  156. daniel but I also don’t really have a better name
  157. jonas’ I'm certain it does not, because it's not iCal, and everything which is not that abomination will not be able to cover all corner cases :-)
  158. jonas’ I'm not sure that introducing a protocol break here is really sensible, and it might be seen as an easy way out of having to deal with iCal, which will only cause pain and sorrow down the road
  159. jonas’ then again, I have no stakes in that game, so +0
  160. daniel is xcal still a thing?
  161. Zash xcal is an RFC yes
  162. jonas’ the XEP mentions https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0097.html
  163. Zash https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc6321
  164. larma I would love if the XEP would at least have some guidelines on how to translate the format to others like xcal or iCal - similar as all the Jingle XEPs have some SDP translation
  165. daniel yeah like i said my barrier for becoming a XEP has been reached by this. but I'd personally would probalby go with something xcal or ical
  166. daniel larma, do you want to cast a vote?
  167. larma Even with those issues mentioned I'm still +1 because it's good enough for experimental and likely is going to advance XMPP
  168. daniel ok. moving on
  169. daniel 5) Pending votes
  170. daniel none
  171. daniel 6) Date of next
  172. jonas’ +1w wfm
  173. daniel I might only be available on mobile next week. but i think that'll be fine
  174. daniel +1w wfm
  175. larma +1w wfm
  176. daniel 7) AOB
  177. daniel I don’t see anyone sending typing notifications so I guess none
  178. daniel 8) Close
  179. daniel thank you all
  180. jonas’ o/
  181. jonas’ thanks!
  182. Ge0rG I'm sorry for having missed the Meeting. I'm seeing similar issues with Events as discussed by you, and probably a better title would be Calendar Events. However, my gut tells me that reinventing a subset of existing calendar specifications is going to fail in hard and non obvious ways, be it timezone info on the event's location, recurring events or dozens of other problems already solved in existing formats and their implementations. It would be better to sort out how and why existing calendar formats are bad / why the integration in xmpp failed, and to come back with that. My opinion is that this XEP at least needs a very strong rationale for why not to use existing specification, and "We implement RSVP and access permissions" isn't it. You surely can add RSVP for iCal over XMPP and store iCal in pubsub. Therefore am informal -0 from me that I can repeat in the next Meeting or on list some time early next week
  183. Ge0rG (I'll change to a hesitant +1 if this rationale is added)
  184. moparisthebest Sorry about that, re: events, I'll note example 8 has bad XML and it needs security considerations, regardless I'm a +1 I share everyone else's concerns, seems the calendar format everything else uses should just be used, for example this is missing recurring events and probably many other things, why isn't iCal good enough? Anyway none of that changes that it's good enough for experimental in my opinion
  185. daniel I recorded both your votes
  186. Ge0rG There are probably very few developers sufficiently dedicated to xmpp to fully implement a new proprietary calendar format.
  187. daniel Yes I agree. I follow the jmap calendar development a little bit (I'm not participating just reading the list) and calendar stuff is super complex
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  203. larma Ge0rG: I disagree with "There are probably very few developers sufficiently dedicated to xmpp to fully implement a new proprietary calendar format." This new format is probably much easier to implement and use than a fully correct iCal implementation. I haven't found two complete and compatible iCal implementations yet, they either lack features or differ so much in how they realize things, that an iCal crested using one library will be parsed to something different in another.
  204. larma Ge0rG: I disagree with "There are probably very few developers sufficiently dedicated to xmpp to fully implement a new proprietary calendar format." This new format is probably much easier to implement and use than a fully correct iCal implementation. I haven't found two complete and compatible iCal implementations yet, they either lack features or differ so much in how they realize things, that an iCal created using one library will be parsed to something different in another.
  205. Ge0rG larma: like with instant messaging, I argue that the complexity of the format is a consequence of the complexity of the problem domain, and that any re-invented format will ultimately arrive at the same complexity, or come with significant drawbacks.
  206. larma I will go with the significant drawbacks here.
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  208. Ge0rG larma: so you are saying it's impossible to find a set of iCal implementations that cover the common ground in a compatible way, but it's reasonable to expect xmpp developers to create such a set of compatible implementations from scratch?
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  210. moparisthebest I once needed to create a calendar view of events but instead just spit out an .ics file and opened it with Thunderbird, worked great
  211. larma You could probably describe a limited feature set of iCal instead and then find a larger set of compatible implementations. However people ARE going to use existing libraries and ARE going to use more features than the restricted feature set defined and then implementations WILL be incompatible
  212. moparisthebest larma: like muc or pubsub ?
  213. larma More like XHTML
  214. moparisthebest Or jingle or anything else that is complicated
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  221. jonas’ larma: lacking implementations is rectified much easier than lacking standards
  222. jonas’ your argument is actually swaying me toward the negative, but I'll leave my vote as is and raise my concerns on lost instead
  223. jonas’ your argument is actually swaying me toward the negative, but I'll leave my vote as is and raise my concerns on list instead
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  226. larma jonas’: not actually getting your point. Fact is, we lack a proper standard. iCal is mostly defined as "whatever Outlook supports"
  227. Zash Actual actual reality: People will just use Facebook to plan gatherings. :(
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  230. moparisthebest https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc5545 sure looks like a standard
  231. moparisthebest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICalendar links all the RFC updates
  232. moparisthebest > 3.3.3. Calendar User Address > Value Name: CAL-ADDRESS > Purpose: This value type is used to identify properties that contain > a calendar user address. > Format Definition: This value type is defined by the following > notation: > cal-address = uri > Description: The value is a URI as defined by [RFC3986] or any other > IANA-registered form for a URI. When used to address an Internet > Desruisseaux Standards Track [Page 31] > RFC 5545 iCalendar September 2009 > email transport address for a calendar user, the value MUST be a > mailto URI, as defined by [RFC2368]. No additional content value > encoding (i.e., BACKSLASH character encoding, see Section 3.3.11) > is defined for this value type. > Example: > mailto:jane_doe@example.com
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  235. moparisthebest So, original iCal already supports XMPP addresses and RSVP etc, really seems like a terrible idea to re-invent the wheel
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