XMPP Council - 2022-10-19

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  80. larma

    daniel: can we add https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/1188 to the Agenda?

  81. daniel


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  161. moparisthebest

    Now that's a list to vote on!

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  181. moparisthebest


  182. Ge0rG


  183. larma


  184. jonas’


  185. moparisthebest

    moooommmm the ecosystem is moving again!!!

  186. Ge0rG

    don't moxie me!

  187. daniel

    Either my Dino or my notebook has connection issues

  188. daniel

    Give me one second

  189. moparisthebest

    perhaps both!

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  192. daniel

    It's time

  193. daniel

    1) roll call

  194. daniel

    is jonas’ around?

  195. daniel


  196. daniel

    wonder if they are fixed now...

  197. moparisthebest

    well that message came through but that's all I can be confident about

  198. jonas’

    two generals?

  199. daniel

    yes plus a few delayed ones

  200. daniel

    ok. I think we are good now

  201. daniel

    2) Agenda bashing

  202. daniel

    larma wanted to add https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/1188 - I suggest we just do that as an aob

  203. daniel

    3) Editors update

  204. daniel

    - Proposed XMPP Extension: PubSub Social Feed (https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/pubsub-social-feed.html) - Proposed XMPP Extension: OpenPGP for XMPP Pubsub (https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/pubsub-encryption.html) - Proposed XMPP Extension: SASL SCRAM Downgrade Protection (https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/xep-downgrade-prevention.html)

  205. daniel

    4) Items for voting

  206. daniel

    we have a long list today

  207. daniel

    a) Proposed XMPP Extension: PubSub Social Feed (https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/pubsub-social-feed.html)

  208. daniel

    lgtm on first glance but want to take a closer look. on list

  209. moparisthebest

    I'm +1 here I don't even have nits

  210. jonas’

    I note it references XEP-0071 (XHTML-IM)

  211. jonas’

    I note it references (and uses) XEP-0071 (XHTML-IM)

  212. Ge0rG


  213. jonas’

    which I'm not opposed to, nowadays I believe the deprecation of XHTML-IM was a mistake

  214. jonas’

    I'm +1

  215. jonas’

    this seems like a reasonable embedding of Atom

  216. Ge0rG

    can we de-deprecate it?

  217. jonas’

    Ge0rG, we can do everything, if need be, if we can get Board on board

  218. jonas’

    the only thing I'm missing is words on how this relates to ActivityPub

  219. jonas’

    but that's no blocker

  220. Ge0rG

    sorry, I wasn't being very serious.

  221. larma

    I'm on-list

  222. tmolitor

    just my 2 cents: I thnik deprecating it for pure IM cases was a good thing, but for other things like social feeds, it should still be possible to use it...

  223. daniel

    b) Proposed XMPP Extension: OpenPGP for XMPP Pubsub (https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/pubsub-encryption.html)

  224. daniel

    on list

  225. jonas’

    let's not go into that rabbithole :)

  226. Ge0rG


  227. jonas’


  228. jonas’


  229. moparisthebest

    I have some comments like it should probably specify at least some PGP algorithms that should *not* be supported, but so should OX, generally lgtm though, I'll bring it up on-list

  230. daniel

    is this a +1?

  231. moparisthebest

    on-list :) sorry

  232. daniel

    ok :-)

  233. larma

    +1, although I'd love if it was mentioned that this only supports encrypted content (it can't be signed only). Also I started to dislike OX in general (from original being a fan) but that's another story 😉

  234. jonas’

    the signature thing has been raised on-list already, and there's something in the making for that IIRC

  235. larma

    +1, although I'd love if it was mentioned in title/abstract that this only supports encrypted content (it can't be signed only). Also I started to dislike OX in general (from original being a fan) but that's another story 😉

  236. daniel

    c) Proposed XMPP Extension: SASL SCRAM Downgrade Protection (https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/xep-downgrade-prevention.html)

  237. larma


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  240. daniel

    I have mixed feelings about that. I'm not really sure it fills a gap in the xmpp protocol

  241. moparisthebest

    yuck, another "try to protect password from MITM'd TLS" set of hoops, which I'm opposed to on principle, though the spec itself looks fine :/

  242. daniel

    the use case or the scenarios where this provides additional security is super niche

  243. jonas’

    (filling a gap is only a requirement for moving on to Stable :))

  244. tmolitor

    no, it does not try to protect passwords, but to detect such MITMs and it tries to protect the list of channel-bindings as well

  245. daniel

    mitm detection is not necessarily about protecting the password; but about protecting against mitm

  246. moparisthebest

    right that's fair

  247. daniel

    which i generally think is a good thing. not sure this one is the correct approach though

  248. tmolitor

    I think the main usecase is to protect the channel-binding list

  249. Ge0rG


  250. daniel

    on-list too

  251. jonas’

    I have words on list I think

  252. moparisthebest

    same, on-list

  253. larma

    tmolitor, maybe then don't put requirements in if they are not really requirements 😉

  254. tmolitor

    larma: they are requirements, but both requirements are not equally important

  255. daniel

    d) Should this go into XEP-0198? XEP-0198: Add section defining SASL2 and BIND2 interaction https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/1215 this one is not about merging the PR; because this depends on other things; but getting an idea if council would like this in 0198 or in a new xep

  256. tmolitor

    if you have proper channel-binding in place, you won't need to protect the SASL mechanism list...but if you don't have channel-binding, protecting the SASL mechanism list is of value

  257. daniel

    to me the change is backward compatible enough that the discoverability of putting it into 198 is worth it

  258. moparisthebest

    I agree putting it into 198 is best

  259. jonas’

    tmolitor wants to see the world burn and writes verbatim `/>` in XML cdata :D

  260. larma

    I think we first should talk about the updates to xep-0386/xep-0388 before considering this PR

  261. moparisthebest

    good :)

  262. jonas’

    yeah, works for me

  263. jonas’

    yeah, integrating this in '198 works for me

  264. Ge0rG

    larma: I agree with that, both are Deferred, and adding them into 0198 as-is seems counterintuitive

  265. jonas’

    please see what daniel wrote.

  266. jonas’

    (and I, in the xeps issue tracker)

  267. jonas’

    > […] but getting an idea if council would like this in 0198 or in a new xep

  268. jonas’

    this is not about merging, just figuring out if I need to tell tmolitor to put it in a new XEP, so that they can go ahead and do that

  269. daniel

    I think it's likely that some updates to bind2 and sasl2 will pass (soon-ish) to un-defer them and to actually allow for what this PR is doing

  270. jonas’

    (instead of blocking on dwd to accept the changes to bind2 and sasl2, and then blocking again on rewriting the update to '198 as protoxep)

  271. daniel

    without consequences to the questions if we want something like this in 198

  272. Ge0rG

    For discoverability, it would suffice to have a short list with the XEP titles.

  273. Ge0rG

    is #1215 adding new content that's not found in 0386/0388?

  274. daniel

    both bind 2 and sasl2 are extensible. the question is should 198 say "i'm a bind 2 extension" or should there be a new xep that says hey you can use 198 as a bind 2 extension

  275. larma

    I think it would be fine to put this into 0198 IIF it's reasonable to assume that 0386/0388 are moving to stable soonish.

  276. Ge0rG

    larma: +1 to that

  277. Ge0rG

    I was just trying to understand if it's adding new protocol or just new examples of documented protocol

  278. tmolitor

    Well #1215 does not add new content strictly speaking, one could infer the details of '198 and '388 interaction themselves, but #1215 makes these things more discoverable and concentrated to one point

  279. Ge0rG

    conceptually speaking, I think making 0198 say "I'm a bind2 extension" is more logical than making bind2 say "this is the 0198 bind2 extension btw"

  280. daniel

    i don’t think bind2 would say that. if anything there would be a third xep - I think

  281. tmolitor

    it tries to explain some uncertainties one may have when implementing '0198 for SASL2 and BIND2

  282. daniel

    but I think we have enough of an answer here

  283. larma

    Even if 0386/0388 changes are merged, it is not a given that they are going to stable soonish and I wouldn't like to see a stable xep pointing to experimental/deferred xeps and thereby confusing implementors of 0198

  284. jonas’

    larma, what if a note is added which explains the why?

  285. Ge0rG

    larma: I think the §9 intro is clear enough to not confuse readers

  286. larma

    I think it would be fine to just not have it in 0198 while 0386/0388 are experimental. Because IMO it's fine if the experiments are partially underspecified (that's how things typically have been in experimental in the past anyway)

  287. Ge0rG

    but yeah, having a note in §9 saying that you only need to implement the respective subsections when you implement xep-0386/xep-0388 would probably be good

  288. tmolitor

    I can add such a note, if that's what council wants

  289. daniel

    a note like this certainly won’t hurt

  290. jonas’

    larma, would that be sufficient so that it's ok to include to '198?

  291. jonas’

    mind that we cannot fully control *when* things go to stable, so it must also be ok if that won't happen immediately

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  294. Ge0rG

    I think it would be premature to add it now, but I'm not sure what amount of activity around 0386/0388 would warrant the merge

  295. larma

    I think this belongs in 0198 and if it makes things much easier to everyone we can add it "early", but I'd rather see to have at least some delay between merging 0386/0388 and adding this when it's not strictly required to get the experiments roling

  296. moparisthebest

    perhaps a good % of clients and servers implementing an update to them and a ton of traffic on the mailing list ?

  297. Kev

    Logically I think bind2 provides a mechanism, and then other xeps can say that they use that mechanism, so saying in 198 how 198 interacts with bind2 makes sense to me. Similarly anything else that may fit into the bind2 exchange.

  298. Kev

    For a future XEP that does something during bind it makes much more sense for the future XEP to say "And this is what happens during bind" than BIND2 mention every possible XEP that could be used with it.

  299. daniel

    ok we are running up on a time limit. I don’t think we are going to fully answer the question today and it all depends on bind 2 and sasl 2 changes to be merged anyway

  300. jonas’

    (though it seems there are no strong arguments against having this as a '198 update *eventually*)

  301. larma

    moparisthebest, ton of traffic on mailing list IMO rather indicates that there are likely going to be changes which is rather an indication to not touch 198 yet

  302. Kev

    (bind2 will be merged, presumably, as it's Experimental and the Author is happy with it. SASL2 may be another matter)

  303. daniel

    I'm taking away that 198 is the right place. it's only a matter of figuring out the correct time

  304. larma

    daniel, +1 🙂

  305. moparisthebest

    larma, right just that it's indicitive of the "amount of activity", and +1 on what daniel just said

  306. tmolitor

    I've just added a note: https://dyn.eightysoft.de/xeps/xep-0198.html#inline

  307. daniel

    are people ok with extending the meeting by 10mins?

  308. moparisthebest


  309. jonas’

    I am

  310. daniel

    (I would like to start voting on the other two items today)

  311. larma


  312. jonas’

    quorum, let's go

  313. daniel

    e) XEP-0045: Remove more of GC1 (https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/1213)

  314. daniel


  315. moparisthebest


  316. jonas’


  317. larma


  318. Ge0rG


  319. Kev

    We're sure this doesn't open the door to people not including the payload?

  320. daniel

    passed. thank you

  321. daniel

    f) XEP-0167: Release version 1.2.2 (https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/1212)

  322. daniel


  323. jonas’

    Kev, > In order to inform occupants of room roles and affiliations, and to make it easier for clients to track the current state of all users in the room, MUC service implementations MUST provide role and affiliation data (and, if allowed by the room configuration, full JID) in all presence stanzas, including presence stanzas of type "unavailable" sent when a user exits the room for any reason.

  324. jonas’

    that requires the <x/> element, IIRC

  325. Kev


  326. moparisthebest

    +1 on f)

  327. jonas’

    +1 on f)

  328. Ge0rG


  329. larma

    I don't think f) needs council (schema is non-normative IIRC), but +1 anyway

  330. daniel

    5) Pending votes: none

  331. daniel

    6) Date of next

  332. daniel

    +1w wfm

  333. moparisthebest

    +1w wfm

  334. larma

    +1w wfm

  335. jonas’

    +1w probably wfm

  336. Ge0rG

    +1w wf

  337. jonas’

    (RIPE GM is in parallel, but past experience says I can attend the council meeting nontheless)

  338. Ge0rG

    +1w wfm

  339. daniel

    7) AOB larma said something about https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/1188 - can you repharse this is an action council should consider taking?

  340. jonas’

    I suppose making dwd react

  341. larma

    what jonas’ said 🙂

  342. larma

    or decide without him

  343. jonas’

    (and or making larma co-author officially)

  344. jonas’

    but given that dwd is reactive elsewhere, we should try poking him first

  345. jonas’

    though that is strictly the editor's job

  346. jonas’

    so I'll shoot him a mail now

  347. daniel

    ok. thank you jonas’

  348. daniel

    any other aob?

  349. larma

    not from me

  350. moparisthebest

    none here

  351. larma

    (and thanks jonas’ )

  352. jonas’

    (mail sent)

    🥰️ 2
  353. jonas’

    and no AOB here

  354. daniel

    ok. assuming none then

  355. daniel

    8) Close

  356. jonas’

    thanks daniel, thanks all

  357. daniel

    thank you all

  358. Ge0rG


  359. moparisthebest

    thanks all

  360. tmolitor


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  381. Zash

    Oh look, reactions! https://logs.xmpp.org/council/2022-10-19?p=h#2022-10-19-8d7503edf14921df

  382. jonas’


  383. larma

    Now the only thing we need is stickers!

  384. moparisthebest

    Hey, get off my lawn

  385. moparisthebest

    (seriously though, neat :))

  386. Zash

    No, now it's inline custom emojis apparently

  387. larma

    custom reactions

  388. moparisthebest


  389. Zash


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