agree it should probably be rather advanced client only
pep.
It shouldn't make it to CSs at all IMO
daniel
I’m actually not sure if slack or element support it?
larma
you could argue the same about avatars
daniel
but i'm inclined to get rid of it
larma
Slack does
larma
element too
pep.is cruft straight from the past or our tech circles
pep.
fail.
pep.
/me
larma
Or precisely, Matrix does natively (on wire /me messages are different to non-/me messages)
pep.
"//me foo" sends /me in poezio..
pep.
larma, fwiw I think they should also be on XMPP
pep.
"/me " is yet another terrible body hack
larma
agree
Kev
Terrible, yes. It's a wonder that the network has been able to survive under the weight of it for so many years.
pep.
Kev, it really is! :)
larma
Kev, body hacks typically don't hurt except if you want to send something that a body hack would transform
Kev
It's inelegant, we might not design it this way these days, but it's not onerous in the grand scheme.
Zash
Did someone say '393
pep.
It's like saying philantropist billionaires are great, except when they actually get you to accept the fact that billionaires should be a thing. /me is a well-accepted body hack and it contributes to making it ok to do body hacks.✎
pep.
It's like saying philantropist billionaires are great, except that they actually get you to accept the fact that billionaires should be a thing. /me is a well-accepted body hack and it contributes to making it ok to do body hacks. ✏
Kev
I thought that. The /me command and extreme wealth inequality are almost directly equivalent things.
MSavoritias (fae,ve)
whats the replacement?
Kev
Communism?
MSavoritias (fae,ve)
XD i meant /me
MSavoritias (fae,ve)
i didnt know it was such a hack
pep.
MSavoritias (fae,ve), not doing it, or doing something better, that is a specific tag in <message>
daniel
we would charge a $0.02 fee for every /me command send
larma
- Message sending "/me tests" `{ "type": "m.room.message", "content": { "msgtype": "m.text", "body": "/me tests" } }`
- Message sent when typing "/me tests" in client supporting it in Matrix: `{ "type": "m.room.message", "content": { "msgtype": "m.emote", "body": "tests" } }`
daniel
a sort of tax if you will
Zash
and then that tax will go towards authoring a replacement XEP?
Zash
(and maybe the XSF Dinner)
Kev
Of all the problems that are there to be solved in XMPP - both future features and cleanup of existing inelegancies, I struggle to believe that '/me' is really worth our time. It feels like the sort of issue where although there's bigger decisions to be made, people will weigh in on this one because it's easier to grasp. Someone should come up with a term for such a thing...
pep.
Removing it from CSs should be no biggie though..
pep.
That doesn't mean clients should remove it as a feature
Kev
Except that it's a feature that client authors need to implement to not have their users get displayed weird messages.
Kev
This isn't some niche XMPP-only thing. It's common across IM ecosystems.
pep.
Because nerds use it
daniel
because slack and discord have it
daniel
apparentaly
pep.
Who uses that in slack and discord though
larma
pep., notice though, that non-nerd-platforms like Slack, Discord, etc. today use Markdown as rich-text input because nerds built it and made some small tutorial how to use it and now everyone des✎
pep.
and do we have to copy everything they do
larma
pep., notice though, that non-nerd-platforms like Slack, Discord, etc. today use Markdown as rich-text input because nerds built it and made some small tutorial how to use it and now everyone does ✏
daniel
to some degree yes
daniel
and they copied us (and IRC)
pep.
daniel, you're saying we should have removed that years ago? :P
pep.
And now we're stuck with it because devs are nerds
Zash
Except in IRC it's a client to client command, not a literal "/me blah" message.
pep.
We haven't even manage to copy IRC properly :D
Zash
Type `<action>verbs</action><body>/me verbs</body>` into a XEP and send it in!
MSavoritias (fae,ve)
if its a hack i agree on removing it
MSavoritias (fae,ve)
its not like profanity is gonna look at CS and be like we have to remove it to be "compliant"
Kev
MUC is full of hacks. Should we remove '45 on that basis?
Zash
Not until there are server-side MUC-to-MIX translation layers everywhere!
pep.
Well it's an not a hack anymore it's an institution now. Look any talk about even just removing it from CSs is frowned upon :P
MSavoritias (fae,ve)
Remove it for MIX i say
larma
Zash, and even then, it should still be in there because devs can just choose one or the other to be fully compliant with groupchats
pep.
MSavoritias (fae,ve), it's not a groupchat thing
MSavoritias (fae,ve)
then only kaidan is compliant :P
pep.
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0245.html
MattJ
Are we against "/me", or are we saying XMPP shouldn't support/require clients to be able to display action messages?
pep.
MattJ, the latter for me
MattJ
Even though many other messengers do support those things, and people will say it's the one thing XMPP needs to be successful
MattJ
Feels like a step backwards :)
Zash
People *did* say that!
pep.
People say everything you want to hear
Zash
MattJ, remember when the old chat.prosody.im didn't support /me ?
MattJ
Yup
larma
I'd say it's actually an advanced feature, not a critical important feature every client has to support, because the fallback body is "good enough"✎
Zash
I was using it in a different project and someone complained about the lack of /me
larma
I'd say it's actually an advanced feature, not a critical important feature every client has to support, because the "fallback body" is "good enough" ✏
MattJ
I'd definitely prefer an explicit <action> or something, and a better fallback body
Zash
MattJ, write the xep!
MSavoritias (fae,ve)
i wouldnt mind action messages but i see them in the same niche as moods and user tunes personally
daniel
> and people will say it's the one thing XMPP needs to be successful
that’s 100% a thing that would happen
MSavoritias (fae,ve)
yeah actions xep would be interesting
Kev
I can't even find when I added /me to Psi, because it predates the switch to Git in early 2007.
MattJ
If we have a decent fallback body I don't care much about whether it's in advanced or CS at all
Zash
inb4 months of arguing whether it should be merged into https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0439.html or its own XEP
MattJ
But showing unrendered "/me" to users is a step backwards
larma
When writing the XEP, also remember to add the <non-action /> element to signal that the message starting with "/me" in the body is not meant to be an action.
MattJ
Ha
Zash
or RECOMMENED that clients insert a zero-width non-breaking space before /me
larma
<message><body>/me foo</body><action /><fallback for="action" from="0" to="3" /></message> is rendered "* name foo"
<message><body>/me foo</body><non-action /></message> is rendered "/me foo"
<message><body>/me foo</body></message> is rendered "* name foo" for legacy compat✎
larma
<message><body>/me foo</body><action type="me" /><fallback for="action" from="0" to="3" /></message> is rendered "* name foo"
<message><body>/me foo</body><non-action /></message> is rendered "/me foo"
<message><body>/me foo</body></message> is rendered "* name foo" for legacy compat ✏