jdev - 2019-09-03

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  77. Ge0rG What do you do if a join presence to a MUC times out? If you are just on a slow network, eventually the join will complete. If the remote MUC server is down, you don't quite know.
  78. Kev Swift says something like "No response has been received yet, maybe you're never going to join".
  79. Kev (Not those exact words)
  80. Ge0rG (using a library with a "hard" timeout isn't exactly helping, btw)
  81. Kev There's almost no instance in XMPP where a hard timeout is helpful at the protocol level.
  82. Ge0rG I wondered why my message parser was crashing on a null pointer dereference, but it was because the join didn't complete in 30s before that, and thus the controller object was decomissioned.
  83. Ge0rG Kev: establishing a c2s connection from a mobile client.
  84. Kev I said 'at the protocol level' deliberately, because session startup is an exception.
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  86. Ge0rG I tend to agree. It would be great to have a mechanism that triggers a soft-timeout handler without actually removing the success handler
  87. Ge0rG so that you can show "this is taking unusually long. please be patient"
  88. Ge0rG (this is also not how most APIs work)
  89. Kev In Swift we just go a layer above.
  90. Kev So the layer that asked for the MUC join displays the message if the library hasn't announced a completion yet.
  91. Ge0rG Hm, yeah.
  92. lovetox how can a join timeout wihout response?
  93. lovetox should your own server not tell you that the muc server is not reachable
  94. Ge0rG lovetox: it can't. But there are libraries that expect the join to be finished in a given pre-defined time
  95. Ge0rG Theoretically, it can't.
  96. lovetox ok but 30 s seems a long time
  97. Kev I was thinking 30 seconds was no time at all :D
  98. lovetox i would say servers should respond faster with a timeout error
  99. Ge0rG In practice, there is no s2s 0198, so your presence might well get lost while the remote server is tearing down
  100. Ge0rG lovetox: a) mobile connections tend to be veeeeery slow.
  101. Ge0rG I experience minute long delays on my usual train to work.
  102. Kev Mobile connections are fast compared to some things.
  103. lovetox yeah ok, Gajim never timesout, it just says endless "joining..."
  104. Ge0rG b) setting up s2s is friggin' complicated, with dialback and unhappy eyeballs etc.
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  106. Ge0rG sometimes you only have a unidirectional s2s, so your join completes fast, but you never get the responses back.
  107. Ge0rG distributed systems are hard. let's go shopping!
  108. Daniel fwiw (somewhat related to this discussion) i always iq before join
  109. Daniel i need that to decide what to put into the history tag anyway
  110. Daniel and then i know if i get a server not found or something
  111. Ge0rG Daniel: what do you do if the IQ isn't responded to?
  112. Daniel display joining… i guess
  113. Daniel but it seems less likely than a lost presence
  114. Ge0rG forever?
  115. Kev That'd massively delay joining the MUC if there's a slow link though, wouldn't it?
  116. Daniel presumably
  117. Ge0rG Kev: there is no other way to know whether that JID is actually a MUC
  118. Zash Unidirectional s2s is problematic, that would eat your iq-reply too.
  119. Ge0rG can't we just have s2s-0198?
  120. pep. But with an IQ my server should send me a timeout back no? If it gets no answer. Or will it just wait that the kernel kills the tcp socket if the connection is borked?
  121. Zash Prosody won't
  122. Ge0rG pep.: your server doesn't track IQs to remote servers
  123. Ge0rG pep.: so if there is a unidirectional s2s connection, you'll wait foreve
  124. Ge0rG pep.: so if there is a unidirectional s2s connection, you'll wait forever
  125. pep. Great
  126. pep. Well slix will timeout at least.
  127. Zash And 198 doesn't actually help with that
  128. Ge0rG Zash: why not?
  129. Zash 198 is also unidirectional
  130. Zash It has nothing to do with replies
  131. Ge0rG I mean, it will not detect/fix unidirectional s2s, but it will restore all messages after a successful reconnection
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  133. Zash Will it?
  134. Ge0rG You only need to kick it hard enough?
  135. Zash Reconnection support isn't mandatory afaik
  136. Ge0rG A _sane_ implementation of 0198 will help
  137. Zash Does that exist?
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  172. pep. xmpp:chat@xmpp.rs?join < xmpp-rs is moving there
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  175. Zash Anyone aware of any XMPP software that requires an XML declaration at the start of each stream?
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