jdev - 2019-09-06

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  65. marc0s by any chance, do some of you will attend januscon.it later this month? I'm asking because as I read some emails/discussions around jingle/call-related stuff... Wondering if we can meet and have some drinks if that's the case :)
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  67. Daniel marc0s, no. but let me know in case there is ever a more open source focused conference in italy. i'd love to go, maybe even give a talk
  68. marc0s Daniel, no that I'm aware of right now. Will ping you if I know of something. Not living in Italy, though :)
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  98. marc0s i'm on the process of adding XEP-0402 support to stanzajs and was wondering how a client should actually determine how to store its bookmarks given the server supports both private storage and pep/pubsub. Any ideas/comments/warnings? :)
  99. Daniel xep 402 is only specified to work with pep
  100. Daniel but pep and publish options as well as private xml have features announcments on the account disco
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  102. marc0s but, given that disco announcements offer all the options, what should a client use?
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  104. pep. As not many clients (none?) use 402 yet, you probably also want to support the other pep bookmark thing?
  105. pep. (48?)
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  107. Daniel what i do (but that's only for bookmarks 1); is to check if my server supports the conversion xep and if it does i use pep because it's more efficient. and if not i publish to private xml because that's more widely used
  108. marc0s that would be a safe route, yes
  109. Daniel i haven’t found a strategy to incorperate bookmarks 2 into the mix
  110. Daniel probably have the conversion xep also convert into bookmarks 2
  111. Zash Bookmarks Conversion 2: The seriousening
  112. marc0s I'm not fully aware of the XEP processes, but it does not sound crazy to me to make 411 take 402 into account
  113. Ge0rG I think that 402 should mandate backend-side conversion between all the stores.
  114. Daniel 402 still lacks a lot of things
  115. Daniel it should probably also mention that the node needs to be configured
  116. marc0s should we then need Bookmarks 3: The Good One :)
  117. Zash Like I mentioned the other day, node item count limits will be fun
  118. Ge0rG Bookmarks: Revolution
  119. marc0s Zash, yep :)
  120. Zash XEP-0927: Bookmarks 2000: This time we finally got it right!
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  131. lovetox im not convinced on 402, i think it makes the bookmark implementation alot more complex
  132. lovetox right now i request on start my bookmarks, i get all, and if another device changes one, i also get all, and thats it there are only these 2 things to think aobut, request, and notification
  133. lovetox with a items based approach, you suddenly have to think about stuff like, what if another device deletes on item? do i get a deletion notification once i come online? no .. what if a device adds 2 items while im offline, do i get 2 items when i come online? no .., so im back to requesting all bookmarks items on start anyway, this time with a more overhead as each bookmark is in its own item
  134. jonas’ lovetox, and with one item, you have to think about: what if another device modifies/adds the same item at the same time, e.g. in response to an invite or something
  135. jonas’ what if the modifications aren’t identical
  136. lovetox so it seems the only benefit is, that if a device adds a bookmark while im online, i get only one item instead of all
  137. jonas’ or rather, what if two devices concurrently edit two different items
  138. lovetox i would consider this if i modify my bookmarks 50 times per hour
  139. lovetox but realisticly its probably 3 times a day
  140. lovetox jonas’, this is highly unlikely, server processes events in order
  141. lovetox invite means both clients modify the same item in the same way
  142. Daniel lovetox, i ran into problems with deleting multiple bookmarks in quick sucession
  143. Daniel meaning delete the second one while the first one is still in flight
  144. lovetox yes Daniel i can see the problem, especially with ejabberd
  145. lovetox as it notifys the issuing device with a pep notification
  146. lovetox if you take this notification serious, you add back the bookmark that you just deleted
  147. Daniel yes
  148. lovetox we should fix that in ejabberd though, prosody doesnt do this
  149. Daniel i'm not sure that ejabberd is broken in that regard?
  150. lovetox yes, if i issue a publish, and i get a result that it was ok
  151. lovetox i dont see a reason why i need a pep notification
  152. lovetox its not "broken"
  153. lovetox its just useless and leads to problems as we can see
  154. jonas’ lovetox, yes, server processes events in order, but clients have latency to the server
  155. Daniel useless maybe. but i'm not willing to by that this is the cause of the problem
  156. Daniel this is just what makes you notice the problem
  157. Daniel *to buy
  158. lovetox i feel we just exchange some kind of problems with other kind of problems with 402
  159. Daniel i mean this is just the most obvious race. but as jonas’ pointed out there are other (unlikely?) races in there as well that involve multiple clients
  160. Daniel lovetox, what problems do you see with 402 aside from the upgrade path
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  162. lovetox as i wrote above, it just mentions the benefit, that you can modify one item at a time, but it should have much more on implementation notes, probably because no one implemented it yet
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  164. lovetox stuff like, if you start, you get the last bookmark item that was published
  165. lovetox probably should ignore it, until you requested all bookmarks
  166. lovetox stuff like node configuration
  167. Daniel lovetox, yes bookmarks 2 is not done yet. and you can just configure the node to not send the last item
  168. Daniel which i agree the xep should do
  169. lovetox whith what id do we publish, or does the server choose ids
  170. lovetox how do we make sure we dont overwrite items
  171. Daniel lovetox, the id is the jid. i think the xep says that
  172. lovetox ah kk, what i want to say is, i dont see a big problem with the xep, just it obviously was never implemented
  173. lovetox and my problems with bookmarks1 are not that big, that i jump into the cold water :)
  174. Daniel also the XEP needs to do something about max items
  175. Daniel so there are things in the xep that are underspecified a bit
  176. Daniel but fixing the race seems to be worth while to me
  177. Daniel also; if you ever wanted to do something like shared bookmarks on the server side (which customers ask about all the time) having multiple items that the server can modify or inject without editing xml seems like a big benefit to me as well
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  180. guus.der.kinderen > also; if you ever wanted to do something like shared bookmarks on the server side (which customers ask about all the time) having multiple items that the server can modify or inject without editing xml seems like a big benefit to me as well Customers ask for this? As in, read-only bookmarks, shared be a group of people?
  181. Daniel guus.der.kinderen: well the ask for can we put people into group chats by default
  182. Daniel Like when they first open the app
  183. Daniel And bookmarks seems like one way of doing that
  184. guus.der.kinderen Openfire has a plugin for that. It doesn't do anything fancy, only injects additional bookmarks in a persons bookmarks collection.
  185. guus.der.kinderen Daniel: yeah that's what we use it for, by adding autojoin bookmarks
  186. Daniel guus.der.kinderen: yes and server side that seems less messy with bookmarks 2
  187. guus.der.kinderen It's pretty clean in any form. You simply add a list of shared entries to the personal list, and subtract that list while editing.
  188. Daniel You could then properly reject the deletion. Instead of having it just magically Reeapear
  189. guus.der.kinderen Right
  190. guus.der.kinderen Ok, gotta put the kid to bed. Afk.
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  199. lovetox Daniel, do you send always set SNI ext, even for starttls?
  200. Daniel lovetox: why do you ask? I think I didn't but my last refractor yesterday might have accidentally set it
  201. lovetox im asking because i contemplate doing this
  202. lovetox gmail xmpp server mandates it
  203. lovetox it needs sni even on starttls
  204. lovetox and it would make my code less complex
  205. Daniel Oh right. Yes now that you mention it I think I did that
  206. lovetox i dont really care about gmail
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  208. Daniel Well since yesterday my setup tls socket code is the same for starttls, direct tls and tor
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  210. Daniel So it's not more code. Is what I wanted to say
  211. Zash I've been trying to make Prosodys certificate and TLS management code treat STARTTLS and TLS+SNI the same.
  212. moparisthebest Daniel, how are you doing DNS for tor ?
  213. Daniel moparisthebest: not at all. You have to specify the hostname
  214. Daniel (if your server doesn't a record to the same machine)
  215. moparisthebest hmm, then how do you know direct TLS or STARTTLS
  216. lovetox you dont
  217. lovetox you expect the server to offer stuff on the standard ports
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  219. Daniel You can enter port 5223 or 443 and then it will assume that this is direct tls
  220. Daniel Which is debatable for 443 but who cares
  221. moparisthebest when you run a tor exit node you get to pick what outgoing ports you support, I feel like more might support 443, but I'm not sure
  222. lovetox also moparisthebest some servers have .onion adresses
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  224. moparisthebest which you can put in DNS SRV records
  225. lovetox .onion adresses have DNS records?
  226. Daniel Yes. I was about to say. If you are serious about tor I'd recommend you put in the onion address in the hostname field
  227. Daniel That's what I would recommend to my users
  228. moparisthebest lovetox, no, but I can put a .onion in the SRV record for moparisthebest.com for example
  229. lovetox how does that help someone that wants connect to a server and only have the .onion adress?
  230. lovetox why would a hidden tor service, link itself to a non-hidden srv domain record
  231. moparisthebest why not?
  232. lovetox because you are not anonym anymore then
  233. Zash moparisthebest: someone like that would care about leaking the SRV lookup
  234. moparisthebest don't leak it, look it up over TOR
  235. lovetox anyway, to support TOR the server admin has to be aware of it
  236. Daniel How does that help when you can't do SRV over Tor?
  237. lovetox and a onion service even more so
  238. Daniel I mean even if you put the onion in dns how are you going to discover it?
  239. Ge0rG DoH to the rescue!
  240. Daniel No
  241. moparisthebest you can, do DoT or DoH to or even regular DNS over TCP to port 53 of dns4torpnlfs2ifuz2s2yf3fc7rdmsbhm6rw75euj35pac6ap25zgqad.onion
  242. moparisthebest (which cloudflare runs)
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  244. Daniel So I should hard code cloud flare ips in my app? Is cloud flare still going to exist tomorrow?
  245. moparisthebest maybe, you can hard-code a few, or run your own
  246. lovetox moparisthebest, if you are serious about TOR, you will *not* DNS anything
  247. lovetox you will just pass the onion adress to the tor proxy
  248. lovetox thats it
  249. lovetox the moment you involve cloudflare, this degrades TOR seriously
  250. Daniel Yeah if you want to use Tor take 3 minutes to figure out the histename / onion address of your server
  251. moparisthebest wouldn't it be nice if a user of regularservice.com that happened to have tor could just connect over it automatically without typing .onion addresses though?
  252. Daniel And maybe go read the privacy policy of your provider while you are at it
  253. lovetox moparisthebest, i dont think you get the idea of TOR
  254. lovetox the idea of TOR is that nobody but you yourself and your machine, knows where you gonna connect to
  255. lovetox this rules out asking anyone for any information regarding your connection target
  256. lovetox because then you leaked your intent
  257. moparisthebest I don't think so, after all HTTPS over tor asks for A records right?
  258. moparisthebest how is this different?
  259. lovetox im not a tor expert but im pretty sure the tor network makes the dns request
  260. lovetox not your machine
  261. moparisthebest the intent is my ISP doesn't know where I'm connecting to
  262. moparisthebest the built in tor DNS supports A and CNAME and nothing else though, asking an .onion address for SRV records is essentially the same
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  264. lovetox Tor is not only to hide your intent from your ISP
  265. moparisthebest it *can* only be for that though?
  266. lovetox if that would be the case you would not need tor, just DoH
  267. lovetox and a proxy
  268. moparisthebest that sounds harder than tor, and also not as secure/the same
  269. lovetox if you make a dns request via tor, probably it routes it through the tor network
  270. lovetox means nobody in theory can trace it back to you
  271. lovetox not even cloudflare
  272. lovetox and thats the goal
  273. lovetox not exchaning your ISP for cloudflare trustwise
  274. lovetox its you trust no one
  275. moparisthebest and if you ask cloudflare's .onion for a SRV record they also can't trace it to you, right?
  276. moparisthebest in fact it never even crosses the clearnet for anyone
  277. lovetox yes, if we could ask a SRV record over the tor proxy this would work
  278. lovetox but it doesnt, because TOR just does not support SRV
  279. moparisthebest but asking an .onion is asking over the tor proxy
  280. Daniel lovetox: it does. If you ask cloud flare over tcp
  281. lovetox you propose to do the dns request yourself
  282. Daniel Yes
  283. lovetox yes that would work, never done anything like that though, so dont know how complex this is
  284. moparisthebest yes, just like DNS-over-TLS, DNS-over-HTTPS, and DNS-over-XMPP proposes
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  286. lovetox but sounds complicated
  287. Daniel I'm already dining my normal dns requests myself
  288. Daniel I'm already doing my normal dns requests myself
  289. lovetox i mean there are libraries and dns lookup tools
  290. moparisthebest it's annoying enough that you should probably just use a library
  291. lovetox you cant use them, so you have to implement the whole dns request protocl yourself
  292. Daniel It's not rocket science. But I won't bother any time soon
  293. Daniel Because > Yeah if you want to use Tor take 3 minutes to figure out the histename / onion address of your server
  294. moparisthebest asking an .onion should be as quick as possible, it's not going through any exit nodes anyhow
  295. Daniel And > So I should hard code cloud flare ips in my app? Is cloud flare still going to exist tomorrow?
  296. lovetox moparisthebest, its not about quick, its about implementing another protocol
  297. moparisthebest time to expose an unbound port over a tor hidden address ran by conversations.im :D
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  299. moparisthebest wait why can't you use existing dns lookup libraries/tools lovetox ?
  300. moparisthebest conversations uses minidns or something if I recall
  301. lovetox i just doubt they let you use them over a tor proxy
  302. lovetox but never used one
  303. moparisthebest it's just a socks5 proxy, they should...
  304. lovetox i know that i cant use python inbuilt one
  305. Daniel moparisthebest: fwiw minidns doesn't support dns over TLS or https
  306. moparisthebest you can just do regular TCP on an .onion though, or I can put in a PR to swap minidns out for https://github.com/moparisthebest/jDnsProxy lol (not really)
  307. lovetox moparisthebest, maybe you missed it, i already agreed with you that it is possible
  308. lovetox but as Daniel said, the people who want to use TOR are 1% of the users
  309. lovetox and they can take the 2 minutes to get the onion adress
  310. lovetox im not going to jump through hoops programming wise to save them those 2 minutes
  311. moparisthebest that's fair, I'd kind of like it to be seamless to have regular users connect over tor too, but other people probably disagree
  312. Daniel We are also only talking about the subset of tor users on providers that don't listen on the a record
  313. moparisthebest FYI this is the cloudflare .onion reference https://developers.cloudflare.com/
  314. moparisthebest I'll be running a public, anonymous-login-supporting DNS-over-XMPP on clearnet and .onion whenever I get back around to finishing setting it up...
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  323. 💋ᵐyᵃᵇᵃᵇᵉᶻ💋 ?
  324. tom whoever 'jdev@muc.xmpp.org/💋ᵐyᵃᵇᵃᵇᵉᶻ💋' is please change your nic
  325. tom it's making my software freak out
  326. 💋ᵐyᵃᵇᵃᵇᵉᶻ💋 has left
  327. tom how did you even join this muc with that nick? It should be invalid
  328. Zash Why?
  329. tom because it's using invalid characters or encoding
  330. Zash It's UTF-8, but there are barely any other limits
  331. mathieui it’s valid
  332. mathieui ant it works here
  333. mathieui and it works here
  334. Zash Valid UTF'8 that passes resourceprep and isn't entirely whitespace, so legal under those rules.
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  336. Zash Altho, it does not pass Prosodys resourceprep if I recompile it without USPREP_ALLOW_UNASSIGNED, but I think it's using Unicode from 1997 or something then.
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