jdev - 2019-11-11

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  58. debacle Which is the best XMPP library for golang? No abandonware, please. (cross-question with xmpp:golang@conference.samwhited.com?join)
  59. jonas’ I use mellium.im/xmpp
  60. debacle jonas’ anything good or bad to say about it? :-)
  61. debacle is it like aioxmpp, but in golang?
  62. debacle I also found Jackal, the XMPP server written in Go, which does not seem to use an external XMPP library. Interesting.
  63. jonas’ debacle, it was the least bad I could find
  64. jonas’ but they’re all incomplete and rather low-level
  65. Zash debacle: Got some project or looking for XMPP things to package?
  66. debacle Zash I start to get interested in golang. It looks like a pretty boring and not so well-designed language, but I need something to kill Python on a low-RAM system. Development must be easy and cheap, like Python, not difficult and expensive like Rust or Erlang. Maybe I should consider Lua :-)
  67. debacle jonas’ thnx!
  68. jonas’ I don’t think you’ll achieve a low memory footprint with golang
  69. debacle jonas’ compared to Python?
  70. jonas’ not sure
  71. Zash Go uses GC right?
  72. jonas’ but depending on what you’re doing you won’t be happy with the golang libraries I’ve found so far because of lack of features
  73. jonas’ it does
  74. jonas’ but also scoping magic to avoid the GC if possible
  75. jonas’ main concern would be static linking here, footprint-wise
  76. Ge0rG just use node.js instead? :D
  77. debacle jonas’ we would probably use gccgo with dynamic linking. Anyway, as long as libraries are used only once in the system, it doesn't matter, right?
  78. debacle static linking is such a bad idea, that's probably the worst aspect of Go
  79. jonas’ debacle, yeah, but remember that vanilla go brings the go equivalent of libc and stuff
  80. jonas’ that’s stuff you’d normally save
  81. Ge0rG dynamic linking is the benefit of the established frameworks
  82. debacle jonas’ the Python ecosystem is very advanced and I feel like a spoiled child when I look at other ecosystems Ge0rG only that node.js is a chemical waste dump, not an ecosystem
  83. Ge0rG debacle: you'd be surprised about who lives in chemical waste dumps.
  84. debacle jonas’ sure, the standard libary itself might be huge
  85. jonas’ debacle, I agree
  86. jonas’ (although I do like myself some C++)
  87. debacle golang has been invented out of hate towards C++ :-)
  88. debacle Ge0rG JS developers maybe? (jc isn't around, is he?)
  89. jonas’ and I recently ported a golang thing I wrote to C++ out of annoyance with golang, because as you said: "pretty boring and not so well-designed language"
  90. debacle jonas’ it's an outsider view of course. I did not even compile my helloworld yet :-)
  91. Zash Go seems like Java levels of Meh to me.
  92. jonas’ debacle, I did write some golang code: https://github.com/horazont/dragonstash-golang https://github.com/horazont/prometheus-xmpp-blackbox-exporter
  93. debacle ah, yes, prometheus, one of the golang poster children
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  95. zinid > not difficult and expensive like Rust or Erlang This is called education - you learn new and sometimes difficult things in order to be more productive later
  96. Kev It's not wrong, though. Both of those are more expensive to learn than most languages.
  97. Kev (Because they try to do something that most languages don't, of course)
  98. Zash Java and Go must be the cheapest then?
  99. Kev Java's probably about the pinacle of cheap to learn, yeah.
  100. zinid I don't find Java simple at all
  101. zinid Erlang is much more simpler, back then I tried to learn both and ended up with Erlang, at least for my task
  102. Zash Who said anything about simple?
  103. zinid cheap to learn, okay
  104. pep. What does that mean
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  106. zinid pep.: less time spent learning?
  107. zinid at least as I understand it
  108. pep. Also, that all depends with what you started anyway. I started with OCaml, it took me quite some time to get into python
  109. Zash Probably something something time from being hired to being productive
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  111. zinid pep.: I agree, after 5 years of math in the university functional languages are closer to me
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  116. debacle zinid What I meant: I assume, that Erlang and Rust are better™ than Go, but companies care about $/h and time to market. Go has cheaper, faster devs and is still good enough for many projects.
  117. zinid debacle: I disagree, but whatever
  118. Zash As in, you can grab kids from school and have them typing Go or Java in no time
  119. pep. Zash, because they've already gone through the process of learning Java, and that took them all their school years?
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  122. guus.der.kinderen Is OOP even the go-to paradigm in schools these days?
  123. guus.der.kinderen (small pun intended)
  124. Zash Who knows?
  125. guus.der.kinderen People that are either still in school or are familiar with courses?
  126. MattJ Multi-paradigm languages are where it's at
  127. Zash Lua?!
  128. pep. OCaml :-° (even though object is meh in it, and even if imperative is possible it's definitely not for that)
  129. jonas’ I got punched in the face with waterfall-model-OOP development as late as 2013 in university, soooo...
  130. guus.der.kinderen (that's almost 7 years ago)
  131. jonas’ guus.der.kinderen, thanks for reminding me
  132. jonas’ also, I’m pretty sure that they still do the same thing t here
  133. jonas’ they are very resistant to change
  134. jonas’ and allegedly have some ties to the proprietary UML stack we were forced to use for every step of the implementation.
  135. guus.der.kinderen hah!
  136. guus.der.kinderen That, I recognize
  137. guus.der.kinderen we had to follow design paradigm that was developed by one of the professors.
  138. jonas’ ... when they wanted our group (there were groups to implement various software projects) to give a presentation about the thing we did the following year, we politely declined via email with a picture of Tux attached.
  139. jonas’ fun times.
  140. moparisthebest a Norwegian I know that's still in University is learning primarily Java
  141. jonas’ oh, yeah, of course that was all java
  142. jonas’ the language of waterfall-oop
  143. jonas’ the professor was also very proud of being at companies for $reasons aaaaall the time. so good.
  144. Zash Should I be glad I don't know what waterfall is?
  145. pep. You probably know what waterfall is
  146. jonas’ what pep. says, and if you don’t, yes
  147. jonas’ waterfall is when you strictly separate phases like "design", "implementation", "testing" in your ... product ... development ... lifecycle.
  148. jonas’ don’t pin me on the terms
  149. jonas’ I tried to flush this out of my brain like a waterfall.
  150. Zash Opposite of agile? Or scrum? Whatever those are?
  151. jonas’ yeah, pretty much that
  152. pep. Zash, yeah that
  153. jonas’ I only survived that course with mpv --loop=inf The\ Big\ Lebowski.medium
  154. pep. Basically something without a feedback loop
  155. pep. (or too late)
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  166. debacle jonas’ you are probably right: golang is not a solution to safe RAM. libgo.so has 37 MiB on our systems. libc.so is 1.3 for comparison. OTOH, a statically linked hello.go executable has "only" 5 MiB. Write in C, write in C, golang's not the answer, write in C.
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  168. rion C++? =)
  169. moparisthebest as far as I'm concerned C++ is like Cobol now, only reason to write it is maintenence of ancient bad systems, no reason to prefer it over Rust if there is an option
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  171. jonas’ moparisthebest, library support is a good reason to use C++
  172. moparisthebest that implies using C++ libraries is good :P
  173. jonas’ if there are no rust implementations, sure
  174. jonas’ there’s still no proper fuse thing for rust for example
  175. jonas’ (and then there’s of course still the extremely toxic rust community.)
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  177. zinid jonas’, why toxic? they are funny, Rust Strike Force
  178. zinid there is only Rust exists, resistance is futile
  179. moparisthebest toxic? I had the opposite impression, that they are too hand-holdy
  180. jonas’ moparisthebest, they’re just like the matrix folks, whenever there’s even a slight mention of a non-rust thing you have the rust brigade up and running and yelling "RIIR RIIR!!!"
  181. jonas’ without reason
  182. jonas’ this makes it seem as if the language coudln’t surive without the RIIR brigade...
  183. moparisthebest ah ok you mean the rust advocates, yea that's fair, I meant more the "mission statement" or whatever https://www.rust-lang.org/ "A language empowering everyone to build reliable and efficient software." SO EMPOWERING
  184. jonas’ I don’t care about extra fluff or plush
  185. jonas’ seems like they need it.
  186. moparisthebest I just mean, personally, I've been through my "hope this runs correctly" (python/js) phase, been through the "hope this doesn't segfault" (C++) phase, and Rust is far far better, again personally :)
  187. moparisthebest I find it actually ends up being faster from "start coding" to "runs and works" than other langs
  188. zinid what languages did you try?
  189. zinid you can try any type-safe language with GC, this will be much more productive than fighting with borrowing or weak refs in cyclic structures
  190. moparisthebest it actually isn't though, my day-job language is Java
  191. zinid hell, yeah, java is safe as fuck, with NPE 😉
  192. moparisthebest that's another point for Rust :) all the other mentioned langs also have NPE right?
  193. zinid I don't remember what I mentioned 😉
  194. zinid but ocaml or haskell don't have NPEs 😉
  195. zinid Rust was initially written in OCaml by the way
  196. jonas’ relevant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENqiuLWZNQg&t=1m11s
  197. zinid jonas’, LOL
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  199. pep. :D
  200. pep. I'm glad NPE exists, otherwise I would have never listened to this
  201. moparisthebest > fuzzing UTF-8 strings pro-tip: Ⱥ (U+023A) and Ⱦ (U+023E) are the *only* code points to increase in length (2 to 3 bytes) when lowercased.
  202. moparisthebest totally not a dumpster fire
  203. Zash Eh, so?
  204. Zash a > A
  205. Zash deal with it
  206. moparisthebest like if some code naively allocated the same number of bytes to write a lowercase version of a string into, or even tried to do it in-place
  207. moparisthebest there is bound to be C or C++ out there that does this
  208. Zash bad code gonna be bad
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