jdev - 2019-12-19

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  81. ghost Hi, I am new to XMPP. As of now I am planning to use either ejjaberd or mangooseIM. But the thing is I do not want my clients to directly talk to the XMPP server. I want a middleman between XMPP server and the clients' mobiles. So that even if we decide to move to other protocols like MQTT or etc, I can just change the code in the middleman layer without forcing the client to update the app. the design now will be commitmentless and backwards compatible. I am not able to find a decent way how to do this.
  82. MattJ That makes no sense
  83. Zash That's the kind of thing XMPP/Jabber was originally made for.
  84. MattJ You will still need a protocol between the clients and the "middleman layer", and that protocol won't change
  85. MattJ So you still have to pick one protocol or invent your own
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  87. MattJ And Zash is right, XMPP was born out of a project that aimed to provide a "middleman layer" between clients and other protocols
  88. ghost but since xmpp takes care of all the needed information like last seen, message history etc, is there a way that I can get middle man to store all these information and whenver the actual client needs something, it can just call the rest api to get these information or I can use FCM or google push to push info from middle man to client?
  89. ghost is this feasible
  90. Zash Sounds like you're inventing XMPP over XMPP. Sure it's feasible.
  91. MattJ FCM and other push services are generally not that good for reliable/instant messaging
  92. Kev FWIW, I'm not at all sure that using something REST-ish for the last mile *is* stupid.
  93. Zash FCM and other push services are generally based on XMPP
  94. Zash Doesn't ejabberd or mongoose already have a REST API?
  95. Zash Kev: I don't think we disagree.
  96. Guus Openfire does. It seems to get a fair deal of usage.
  97. ghost yes it does but I thought using rest at scale is dumb, so I wanted to use push notifications
  98. Guus Primarily, it attracts web devs that are already familiar with applying REST solutions, but have no experience with XMPP
  99. ghost but still i ll have to maintain persistent connections when the app is active
  100. ghost Guus but isnt rest not feasible at scale?
  101. Guus Given that a good deal of the internet is REST based, I'd say it's pretty feasible.
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  103. ghost would you say its better than xmpp?
  104. Guus You're asking if potatoes are better then bananas.
  105. Zash Potatios are obviously superior
  106. Guus my two cents: for IM solutions REST is far more of a generic approach. You'll have to provide all of the nuts and bolts for your features. XMPP has that covered.
  107. Guus a generic developer is more likely to be comfortable with an in-house created REST approach. Your project will start off very well. Then, you need to worry about things already covered by XMPP _and_ training additional developers to maintain your proprietary protocol/code base.
  108. Guus My advice would be to use the more specific tool for the job, even if it's harder to use. It will pay off in the long run.
  109. ghost The problem is that in the future if I decide to move from XMPP to MQTT or something, if i just go with XMPP, I will have to force the users to update the app when I move. But if i have a rest api layer beow my xmpp, then no matter what i change ym protocol to, the user can still use the same app
  110. Guus If in the future you have that decision to make, other things have gone wrong.
  111. Guus but, adding a layer of abstraction will fix that for you, to an extend.
  112. Guus but you'll have to worry about maintaining the introduced layer of abstraction.
  113. Guus it's a trade-off.
  114. Guus I'm a XMPP dev - guess where my preferences are 🙂
  115. Zash Moving from XMPP to MQTT makes no sense to me, why do people do that?
  116. Zash MQTT is a low-level protocol, XMPP is a high-level protocol
  117. MattJ MQTT isn't even a messaging protocol, so you still have to build in your own routing and semantics
  118. Zash Let's replace the web with UDP!
  119. Zash Oh wait that's already a thing 😞
  120. Guus sure, but take it as an example.
  121. MattJ I hear the latest MQTT version now supports errors
  122. ghost not necessarily, we might decide to move to an in house solution or may be to handle scale. As of now 2-3 million conc. users is what ejjaberd or Mangoose can handle, if we cross it we have to pay or build our own thing, so
  123. Ge0rG QUIC! To the firewall rewriter!
  124. Guus might as well have said 'matrix' or 'irc' instead of 'xmpp'
  125. Guus seriously, if you have 2 to 3 million users, you'll have to resources to rewrite whatever you want.
  126. Guus don't over-optimize
  127. Zash Don't prematurely optimize
  128. Guus >Don't prematurely optimize that.
  129. ghost Yes, i totally agree with that, I just wanted to know if this is possible and if its a good thing to do.
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  132. Zash Anything is possible
  133. Guus If you want to expose very limited features provided by XMPP, it's worth considering.
  134. Zash You can always add another layer of abstraction
  135. Guus it'll allow you to attract a bigger number of developers.
  136. Zash But you probably should know what problem you're solving
  137. Guus if you want many features that live in XMPP, you'll quickly end up recreating XMPP in a different syntax. I'd not do that.
  138. ghost Guus : the thing is I am anyway hitting the api to transcribe and etc. So it would be a cleaner design if the same api can handle message sending and receiving.
  139. Guus I got to pick up my kids from school.
  140. Guus ghost I don't understand. If it makes sense to you: go for it.
  141. ghost cool, thanks man
  142. Guus np
  143. Guus I'm out. ttyl
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  162. jonas’ flow, does Smack support Jingle streams?
  163. jonas’ (no need for A/V codec stuff, I want to transport custom real-time binary data)
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