jdev - 2020-02-26

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  98. 123 Hi everyone
  99. 123 I'll like to create a jabber account
  100. 123 Can someone please tell me how to do that?
  101. jonas’ step 1: find a provider
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  103. lovetox jonas’, and where do we find a list of servers?
  104. Zash Search the web for "public xmpp servers" ?
  105. lovetox really?
  106. lovetox that leads me to a list maintained by jabber.at
  107. lovetox https://list.jabber.at/
  108. lovetox which is better than nothing i guess
  109. lovetox but this is the only result on the first page that would be helpfull
  110. lovetox now jabber.network, shows you randomly servers, not sure though if its clear to a user that this are compliant servers
  111. lovetox this shows me that its good to have a small maintained list of servers within Gajim that i offer registration for
  112. Link Mauve lovetox, have a look at the lists Dino and Kaidan and wiki.xmpp.org have independently been trying to come up with.
  113. lovetox hm if a server does not use 0156, does that mean i cant connect to it via webclient?
  114. Link Mauve You could if you were to have a fallback BOSH proxy configured as an open relay.
  115. lovetox so this means no
  116. lovetox then i dont get why the compliance tester lists those providers as 100% compliant
  117. lovetox using a webclient with your provider is a basic use case i think many people have
  118. lovetox so it seems it really was not in the compliance XEPs before but it is now for 2020
  119. lovetox not sure how this was missed in the years before
  120. lovetox when all BOSH xeps where there for compliance, but no way to discover the bosh service
  121. Link Mauve lovetox, another possibility is the service having a sanctioned web client which hardcodes their BOSH or WebSocket endpoint.
  122. Link Mauve XEP-0156 “just” allows the user to use any web client of their choice.
  123. Link Mauve lovetox, you can direct that request to Daniel, I think he’s the one maintaining the Conversations compliance tester.
  124. jonas’ it is the *Conversations* compliance tester
  125. jonas’ why would Conversations care about BOSH
  126. Ge0rG If only we had an *XMPP* Compliance Tester.
  127. jonas’ if only
  128. Ge0rG I once performed all the relevant set operations on CS2020 vs CCT
  129. Zash Isn't it weird to run tests on deployments when compliance is supposed to apply to implementations?
  130. Ge0rG but then I only wrote the results into the xsf@ MUC
  131. Ge0rG Zash: no
  132. Ge0rG Zash: are you only asking this because it's prohivitively complicated to set up a prosody to be 100% compliant?
  133. Zash "prohivitively" yet everyone seems to manage
  134. Zash Also, see Snikket
  135. lovetox it makes total sense
  136. Zash I'm asking because something being in an compliance suite doesn't mean everyone absolutely needs it in their deployment
  137. lovetox why would i want to know if prosody x.x is theoretically complicant if i enable the right modules and do the right configuration
  138. Ge0rG Zash: that's actually a great example... https://compliance.conversations.im/server/snikket.chat/ --> 94%
  139. lovetox As a End User i dont even care what software runs on the server
  140. Zash Case in point, your private server doesn't /really/ need 157
  141. Ge0rG Zash: I know that you are happy with the XMPP of 2006 and you don't need all the extra modules.
  142. Ge0rG snikket.chat is not "your private server".
  143. lovetox haha, from the snikket homepage: Secure communication on snikket.chat
  144. Ge0rG It has a dozen or two of users who maybe just happened to be in Brussels on a certain day.
  145. Zash It's not a public server afaik
  146. lovetox Firefox: Your connection is not secure
  147. Link Mauve Ge0rG, the one dropping it from 100% to 94% is actually XEP-0368, aka direct TLS.
  148. Ge0rG Direct TLS SRV records.
  149. Link Mauve It only lowers the amount of roundtrips by one on a connection.
  150. Ge0rG Which are undergoing Last Call right now
  151. Link Mauve That’s really not something that is absolutely mandatory.
  152. Link Mauve Ge0rG, not CFE?
  153. Ge0rG Link Mauve: unless you can't parallelize SRV lookups, in which case it adds another rtt
  154. Ge0rG Link Mauve: sorry, CFE
  155. Link Mauve Are there SRV implementations which can’t do that? /o\
  156. Ge0rG Link Mauve: yes
  157. Holger Isn't it more about circumventing firewalls doing deep packet inspection?
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  159. Zash Good resolvers will give you A/AAAA when you ask for SRV
  160. Holger Then again ALPN ...
  161. Ge0rG Link Mauve: because the useful API abstraction is "open me a secure socket to $service on $domain"
  162. Zash Holger: No, it's whatever you want it to be
  163. Link Mauve Holger, you can do that with WebSocket or BOSH with probably a lot more success rate in the wild.
  164. Link Mauve Ge0rG, so case in point, a deployment doesn’t need 0368.
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  166. Ge0rG Link Mauve: no, but then it will add one more RTT on clients that support 0368
  167. Ge0rG because clients that care about RTTs will first try the direct tls srv
  168. Link Mauve Ge0rG, implement SASL2 and Bind2 and you’ll get a wildly more reduced RTT.
  169. Link Mauve Ge0rG, then they don’t respect the XEP, since it says to mix them and to obey the SRV order.
  170. Ge0rG Link Mauve: see the CFE discussion
  171. Link Mauve I’ve read it yes.
  172. lovetox Ge0rG, its only tried if there is a record
  173. Ge0rG lovetox: but checking for the record is an extra RTT
  174. lovetox yes but that does not depend what the server has deployed or not
  175. Ge0rG lovetox: yes, it's added alone by the fact that the client supports 0368
  176. lovetox yes
  177. Ge0rG so, if the server has deployed 0368, you have one RTT less than without
  178. lovetox ture
  179. Ge0rG if the client first checks for 0368, then doesn't receive a record and does STARTTLS, it's one RTT more than without
  180. lovetox ture
  181. lovetox true
  182. lovetox only if it cant ask in records in parralel
  183. lovetox only if it cant ask records in parralel
  184. Ge0rG lovetox: which was claimed as very complicated on standards@ in the CFE
  185. lovetox but either way i think this does not matter at all
  186. lovetox one roundtrip more or less
  187. lovetox if you then join 20 MUCs, and are forced to receive a few hundred presences
  188. Ge0rG you can pipeline presences, though
  189. lovetox hm itś not very complicated just adds complexity for not much gain
  190. Ge0rG it's complex and complicated.
  191. lovetox is not everything a pipeline in xmpp?! dont know what you mean by that
  192. lovetox if you mean to manually delay or queue joins
  193. lovetox i dont think this makes much sense
  194. Ge0rG lovetox: you authenticate (several RTTs), attempt to restart 0198 (one RTT), bind (one RTT), and then you can send all the joining presences
  195. lovetox as a server can not send you stuff in parallel anyway
  196. lovetox so in requesting 20 joins at once, this is already a queue
  197. Ge0rG and then you'll get a long stream of presences back
  198. lovetox yeah and? i would not want to delay that process even further with delaying joins
  199. Ge0rG not what I said
  200. lovetox what my argument was this takes much more time, than one asking for one more srv record
  201. lovetox like magnitueds more
  202. Ge0rG lovetox: let me tell you about mobile connectivity on Deutsche Bahn
  203. lovetox i think i have to leave now :D
  204. Ge0rG if you have multi-second RTTs, they soon add up into your "connect to server" timeout
  205. Zash SASL2 would let you do auth + bind in one fewer roundtrip
  206. Zash is the idea at least
  207. Zash A Resume198-or-Bind operation?
  208. Ge0rG also what about 0198 auto-resume
  209. Ge0rG Zash: I've been asking for that for years
  210. Ge0rG in the context of MAM - https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2017-January/032016.html
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  220. lovetox from a library view this random extension thing in bookmarks is a bit work
  221. lovetox the easy way is i give the client a list of all the child nodes of the extension node
  222. Ge0rG I'd be glad already if clients stopped butchering my *mandatory* bookmark elements
  223. lovetox its harder if i want to give some abstraction over the extension elements to the client
  224. lovetox because then i have to mix xml lib objects, with some structs i create
  225. lovetox hm i could split it into known extensions and unknown
  226. lovetox or maybe this is so crazy custom that i simply should not care as library
  227. lovetox and the client just has to operate on the xml lib object
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  232. lovetox hm what my lib is missing a way to compare xml objects
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