jdev - 2020-03-08

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00:00:17 moparisthebest The only thing that annoys me is when a client could connect but gives up early, imho there is never a reason to do so
00:00:42 moparisthebest Name the user that would choose not to connect if connection is possible?
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07:50:21 lovetox https://404.city/ looks pretty great
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08:19:28 flow defanor, how could following "happy eyeballs" lead to scenarios where a connection is possible by a client failing to connect?
08:19:53 Martin > https://404.city/ looks pretty great But he could use some spell checking.
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08:41:08 defanor flow: with "connect" being a shortcut for "open a usable stream" (as was discussed above), the potential issue mentioned above applies: a client only ends up with a single address/connection to proceed with, while a connection to another address could have been more useful (e.g., TLS failing on one, but not on another). It's not specific to "happy eyeballs" though, I just recalled thinking that if one was to attempt all the available
08:41:08 defanor addresses until one works for getting to resource binding, it would be particularly awkward to implement with those.
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11:24:25 klaus Hi everyone. Can someone create a wiki account for me on wiki.xmpp.org? I'm currently at the the Düsseldorf sprint and it would be helpful if I could edit our sprint page. Hope this is the right place to ask. My mail is klaus@jsxc.org and my preferred nick is sualko. Thanks a lot.
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11:27:30 pep. Ge0rG, Guus ^ ?
11:28:05 pep. There was also another request a few days ago? but apparently they're gone
11:28:11 pep. "raucao> hi. i'd like to get an account on the wiki. is this the right place?"
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11:52:54 lovetox what do you think about a 5 seconds TCP timeout when connecting to a server
11:53:01 lovetox or is this to low for slow connections?
11:53:33 Zash too low for Link Mauve
11:53:42 jonas’ pretty sure that’s too low
11:53:57 lovetox ok so 10 seems good?
11:54:00 jonas’ try 60
11:54:04 lovetox Oo
11:54:11 Zash I've got a 20 second connection timeout and it seems fine most of the time
11:54:15 jonas’ what are you gonna do when the timeout trips anyways?
11:54:16 lovetox what for? you think a user waits 60 seconds for gajim to connect?
11:54:26 lovetox he kills the application 5 times in that time
11:54:31 jonas’ only if it blocks
11:54:35 jonas’ (which it most certainly should not)
11:54:43 lovetox has nothing to do with blocking
11:54:45 jonas’ it has
11:54:54 lovetox no its about the time a user waits
11:54:56 flow i'd say it's about the UX
11:55:01 jonas’ we seem to come back to this. giving feedback about a long running operation is better than incentivising the user to throw away progress early
11:55:02 lovetox yeah its UX
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11:55:12 lovetox there is no feedback jonas
11:55:13 flow maybe if it clearly make it visible that there is a 20s timeout going on
11:55:18 jonas’ lovetox, yeah, that’s the problem then.
11:55:19 lovetox there is no progress for a tcp connection
11:55:20 jonas’ add feedback.
11:55:23 flow like a circle that fills up
11:55:43 jonas’ "This seems to take longer than expected. We’re still trying, check your connection in the meantime"
11:56:01 jonas’ after N (which should be much smaller than timeout) seconds you show "This seems to take longer than expected. We’re still trying, check your connection in the meantime"
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13:53:13 Guus > Hi everyone. Can someone create a wiki account for me on wiki.xmpp.org? I'm currently at the the Düsseldorf sprint and it would be helpful if I could edit our sprint page. Hope this is the right place to ask. My mail is klaus@jsxc.org and my preferred nick is sualko. Thanks a lot. I just created an account for you. You should have an activation email.
13:54:25 klaus Thanks a lot
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14:12:38 Guus np
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16:42:12 flow Sam Whited, why do you consider switching from 2-clause bsd to apache license?
16:43:35 pep. patents?
16:45:16 Sam Whited flow: Apache has an explicit patent grant which makes corporate lawyer types happy and it has a provision for a notice file which makes me happy. I will miss how short the bsd style one is, but as far as I can tell (not being a lawyer) Apache is just the best written license out there.
16:45:46 Sam Whited Still haven't decided though.
16:48:26 flow Sam Whited, thanks for letting me know :)
16:50:15 Sam Whited If anyone has expertise in this area, I'd love to hear other opinions.
16:52:20 moparisthebest AGPL or bust :)
16:53:07 pep. "best license" is quite subjective, but I know we disagree on this :)
16:53:15 moparisthebest Honestly though all this "X or lawyers/businesses/etc won't like it" is crap, there are huge examples to prove every one wrong
16:54:10 moparisthebest Essentially every business uses GPL Linux and modified-BSD curl for instance
16:54:18 Sam Whited I'm not looking to change the type of license.
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16:54:35 Sam Whited And every business doesn't work on Linux.
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16:55:02 moparisthebest I'd suspect that's not true
16:55:51 moparisthebest The thought of anyone going "hmm I can't use this thing because of BSD but if it was Apache I could" seems unbelievable
16:56:31 moparisthebest I think Microsoft's biggest money maker today is Linux, via azure
17:00:14 pulkomandy But Linux is essentially "GPL but we promise to not enforce it"
17:03:15 moparisthebest I'm pretty sure it's been enforced
17:03:44 Sam Whited Almost all businesses operate this way. Just because one or two exceptions exist where they don't mind contributing back doesn't mean most of them don't
17:04:23 moparisthebest Operate what way?
17:06:06 Sam Whited Don't want to use GPL on core business components, or have to potentially spend time responding to requests for source
17:08:08 Sam Whited Anyways, opinions about BSD v Apache would be welcome if anyone wants to email me. I'm not engaging when every damn time I mention a license decision GPL zealots have to pivot to their preferred license.Please stop fmdoing that.
17:10:18 moparisthebest I explicitly responded directly about Apache vs BSD, you're welcome :)
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17:15:52 Guus Sam Whited: try reaching out to Matt Tucker. Back in the day, he moved Openfire et. al. to Apache. I'm not sure if BSD was considered, but if he did, he might have some insights that are valuable to you.
17:19:00 Sam Whited Guus: thanks, will do. moparisthebest: sorry for snapping, I've been getting a lot of “why won't you GPL?” lately so I've been a bit angry about it.
17:21:37 moparisthebest No problem, it's my default generally but depends on a lot of things, no surprise I like LGPL for libraries often too
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