jdev - 2020-03-14

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  61. lovetox im getting this error from an ejabberd on entering the wrong password
  62. lovetox The response provided by the client doesn't match the one we calculated
  63. lovetox seems to me like a awfully developer orientied text message
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  78. lovetox hm no sorry its prosody of course, ejabberd usually has pretty good error text
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  81. lovetox so is there consense what the text field of an error actually should contain?
  82. lovetox i know from history some server devs treat this like a debug string
  83. defanor I think providing such a message at all may be risky and unnecessary: as the RFC mentions, "In order to discourage directory harvest attacks, no differentiation is made between incorrect credentials and a nonexistent username.", while this points at incorrect credentials. Although even if it wasn't for a textual message, the number of challenges (with SCRAM, for instance) would give it up.
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  86. lovetox i think you misinterpret that security recommendation
  87. lovetox its not recommend to send a message like "Password wrong" which means Username is correct, and so you can harvest users
  88. lovetox but it does not mean you cant send a message like "Incorrect Credentials" or "Username or Password wrong"
  89. lovetox which is exactly what every service i encountered does
  90. lovetox ha !
  91. lovetox and prosody handles that wrong, its possible to harvest usernames with the prosody sasl impl
  92. defanor Indeed, I was talking about Prosody's message. A non-informative textual message should be fine.
  93. lovetox it aborts after <auth> if the username is no known
  94. lovetox it aborts after <auth> if the username is not known
  95. lovetox if it knows the username, it sends a challenge
  96. flow lovetox, i'd say that <text/> should be user exposable, while encouraging impls to put detailed debug messages into something like <debug-text/>
  97. lovetox flow iq allows only one child or not?
  98. flow so? subchild
  99. lovetox yeah k :)
  100. lovetox i also think it should be user exposable
  101. lovetox that does not mean that every user in the world must understand what that message means
  102. flow Only very few places in xmpp disallow stuffing another extension element somewhere
  103. lovetox but it should be something that a user can easily google or ask for
  104. flow yep
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  106. flow but to not allienate the user, making to text not to technical may also be a good advise
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  108. lovetox the standard is weird
  109. lovetox https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6120#section-6.5.10
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  111. lovetox so not-authorized is allowed to be sent in response to <auth> and <response>
  112. lovetox if i send it in repsonse to <auth> its evident that the username is not existent
  113. lovetox because thats the only thing i send in a auth
  114. flow but you don't have to send it right after auth
  115. flow also, it is sasl mechanism specific what is send in auth
  116. lovetox yeah but i doubt any sever impl, now does a random challenge
  117. lovetox for a non existent user
  118. lovetox to fake it
  119. lovetox yeah im talking about PLAIN, and SCRAm
  120. lovetox scram also puts a bit more in the auth, but nothing that would trigger a not-autorized if i do it wrong
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  156. lovetox hm after auth was successful
  157. lovetox and there is a stream restart, is there a order of events
  158. lovetox like must the server first send the new stream header
  159. lovetox or does it not matter and i can fire it even if i didnt yet receive the server stream header
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  446. raucao hi. i requested to get an account for the wiki a while back and was told to wait for someone with admin privileges...
  447. raucao just wanted to check in again
  448. pep. raucao, hey, you should stick around. Not everybody with rights is there everywhere, and they need your email iirc
  449. pep. Ge0rG, Guus ^
  450. raucao oh, could it that there's no message archive for this room?
  451. pep. There is yeah but I don't know if everybody reads everything :)
  452. pep. (I think there is?)
  453. raucao looks like i have a hole in my history from when i wasn't joined
  454. raucao unless there weren't any messages for 7 days
  455. raucao ah, seeing the log link in the topic now. never mind
  456. raucao yeah, looks like MAM is not working for me in this room
  457. raucao (dino.im)
  458. pep. dino doesn't support muc mam
  459. kikuchiyo has joined
  460. raucao are you sure about that? i'm using it daily in many rooms
  461. raucao what would even be the difference between muc mam and just mam?
  462. raucao is it a different XEP than https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0313.html ?
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  464. pep. muc mam is just mam on muc :)
  465. pep. And yes dino doesn't do that
  466. pep. it does normal muc history
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  468. raucao certainly does not do "normal muc history". have that turned off in my rooms and using MAM
  469. raucao and dino works with it
  470. raucao unless i missed it not working for the last 12 months or so
  471. raucao normal history is just receiving a bunch of messages upon announcing presence, correct?
  472. pep. normal muc history is probably provided by your MAM module
  473. kikuchiyo has left
  474. raucao https://github.com/dino/dino/wiki/Supported-XEPs
  475. pep. MUC join is you sending a join presence, you receiving all other occupants' presences, your receive a self presence, then you receive historical messages if there is any, then subject, then live messages
  476. pep. Ask in dino@ if you want
  477. raucao ok, well. i just told you that it works in all of the other many rooms i'm using and that i noticed it only for this room just now
  478. raucao but i'll ask there then
  479. raucao actually, nothing to ask for. i'll just check it myself
  480. raucao they clearly state that MAM is supported ,and they also have it as an option in the room menu
  481. raucao pep., are you using dino daily, or where does that knowledge come from?
  482. pep. "Message history" in the room details is muc history, not MAM
  483. raucao it's not message history
  484. pep. it is.
  485. raucao it's literally message archiving
  486. larma raucao, pep. is right, dino doesn't do MAM in MUCs (dino dev here)
  487. larma though if you didn't recognize yet, MUC history isn't that bad it seems 🙂
  488. pep. raucao, sorry I'm not trying to play you
  489. raucao so it lets you enable it but doesn't do it?
  490. raucao that's very not great
  491. raucao https://xmpp.kosmos.org:5443/upload/791c7ed148e453f934ef56e1a4acb79a30845f0f/Eu5C2s84i7IGyDNlMGd1W6YYwrRb1TBxaHlih8MH/Screenshot_from_2020-03-14_18-34-54.png
  492. pep. raucao, enable?
  493. raucao the room options
  494. pep. that's not MAM
  495. raucao for room settings
  496. larma The MUC configuration form is send from the server and just displayed by dino
  497. pep. That's confusing settings
  498. raucao message archiving is not message archiving?
  499. pep. (not dino's choice)
  500. pep. raucao, message archiving here is MUC history
  501. raucao waaat
  502. raucao guys
  503. pep. Ah wait
  504. pep. No, message archiving is MAM here, you're correct
  505. raucao of course it is
  506. pep. That doesn't mean dino fetches it
  507. larma raucao, servers can add arbitrary settings there, dino just displays them without knowing what they mean
  508. raucao we don't allow normal history on our server
  509. Zash MUC history is something you get when you join, unless you actively opt-out.
  510. raucao yes, i realize that it's the room setting
  511. pep. That's just options your servers passes you
  512. raucao i know
  513. raucao still abysmal ux to show that and then not support it
  514. raucao no matter where it comes from
  515. raucao so it must be my phone that keeps track of history
  516. larma raucao, I do agree to some extend, but it's hard to do anything against that
  517. raucao and me being usually joined in the rooms i use
  518. raucao larma: what's so hard about implementing mam?
  519. raucao that's the right thing to do
  520. raucao if it does it for normal conversations anyway
  521. pep. raucao, "what's so hard about .." is probably not the way to do :p
  522. raucao that's a question in response to someone saying it
  523. raucao > but it's hard to do anything against that
  524. raucao that's a valid question
  525. raucao if someone says it's hard
  526. raucao i'm genuinely interested in improving the situation
  527. pep. it's slightly different then normal MAM, you have to target a MUC. You also have to special case MUC-PMs I guess
  528. raucao because i'm highly technical, so if i run into this, then many people will
  529. pep. And.. privacy concerns don't apply at the same points
  530. pep. Though I guess that should be solved when configuring the MUC..
  531. raucao there are no privacy concerns for local archives
  532. larma a) it's hard to implement MAM, especially with MUCs b) it's hard to filter room settings to not display settings that could be confusing because they don't affect dino
  533. pep. raucao, "local"?
  534. pep. muc mam is stored on the muc
  535. raucao yes, but your local history is stored locally
  536. raucao what you mean is already the room setting
  537. raucao so you can choose it per room
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  540. raucao larma: so it's not implemented at all? i understood what pep. said as it being implemented for 1:1 chats
  541. raucao and it's clearly listed in https://github.com/dino/dino/wiki/Supported-XEPs
  542. larma It is implemented for your local server which means it can and does fetch the history of 1:1 chats
  543. raucao so for MUCs it would have to ask the MUC server is the main difference, aside from slightly different message, due to sender being the muc jid, right?
  544. raucao i added a comment on https://github.com/dino/dino/wiki/Supported-XEPs
  545. raucao so it's clear for people looking at that
  546. raucao sry for being offtopic in here now. the conversations/dino setup works so well for me that i was certain it must have been implemented :)
  547. larma the complicated part about MAM is not fetching messages, it's about fetching the messages you need, keeping track which you already got etc
  548. raucao yes, but you already solved that
  549. raucao obviously
  550. larma it becomes more complicated if you have multiple data sources
  551. raucao you only have one, no? the muc server's source
  552. larma well for the sync process I have mine and all the MUCs I am joined to
  553. raucao yes, of course
  554. raucao but that's only one variable
  555. larma it's not *that* simple
  556. larma I am not saying we are not going to implement it
  557. larma it's on the todo for 0.2 😉
  558. raucao cool
  559. larma (but it took more than 3 years from 0.0 to 0.1, so not sure what that means)
  560. kikuchiyo has joined
  561. larma it's a requirement for reactions which is also planned for 0.2 😉
  562. raucao i would say it's a requirement for all usage of a modern chat app
  563. raucao message history is a basic feature, which users of other chat apps do expect IMO
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  566. raucao not just 20 messages "xmpp history", but i mean seamless archives with no holes
  567. larma you still have the local history, so it's not like things don't work properly
  568. raucao local history doesn't give you missing messages
  569. raucao to me it's broken
  570. larma it's just that if the server does not provide the necessary muc history to give you the missing messages that you have missing messages
  571. raucao no server will give you 1000 messages
  572. larma that's probably why you didn't even notice yet that there is no MAM in MUCs
  573. raucao especially not as default config
  574. raucao for normal history
  575. raucao because it's wildly inefficient
  576. larma you also usually don't look back 1000 messages in a history
  577. raucao no, but more than 20 for sure
  578. raucao the reason i didn't notice is that i usually don't leave rooms
  579. larma I am not saying it's perfect, but it's good enough for many
  580. larma well, if you leave a room you don't get its messages
  581. larma you are not supposed to
  582. raucao i think that's a very counterproductive opinion if you wants users to switch from telegram et al
  583. raucao but you're entitled to it, of course
  584. kikuchiyo has left
  585. larma if you leave a signal or whatsapp group and join again later, you won't be able to read the messages in between
  586. raucao i didn't say signal or whatsapp. those are usually not used with larger groups as chat channels
  587. raucao more like small group of friends
  588. larma same for IRC
  589. raucao hahaha
  590. larma or Matrix depending on channel configuration
  591. raucao saying it's as bad as IRC is not a good thing
  592. raucao discourse, slack, etc. are the competitors in this use case
  593. larma slack, the thing where you can only read the latest 5000 messages in the free version?
  594. raucao they all have seamless history, because otherwise you can't work with people properly
  595. raucao yes, that thing. people do pay for it. that should tell you that it's valuable to have the history
  596. raucao people literally pay money for chat history
  597. raucao it's hilarious, but that's proving how important it is for work
  598. raucao also gitter, mattermost, rocket.chat and all the other ones focused on public rooms
  599. raucao or work rooms
  600. larma I guess you miss my point. I am not saying we don't want to implement MAM in MUCs, just that there are many occations where it is not wanted the way you are envisioning it