jdev - 2020-03-15

  1. raucao i can only think of a single one, which is already handled in dino. that is channel vs group
  2. raucao i cannot imagine a channel that has logs activated where it's not wanted
  3. raucao gotta run. thanks for your insights
  4. larma some people mind their privacy
  5. raucao and good luck with 0.2
  6. raucao there is no privacy in a public room or work room
  7. raucao pretending you have control over it is lying to people
  8. larma if I configure the room such that only people that have been in at least once can see the MAM history, I can gather a list of users that are able to read the messages I wrote
  9. larma *at least once before a message
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  11. larma basically MAM being activated for a user the first time they join
  12. larma and disabled as soon as they get banned
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  18. raucao i don't see that as a wide issue with any other platform that has seamless history. and if you're banned you would likely not expect to get the history
  19. raucao the point is still that normal users and especially groups of users who use it for collaboration, expect seamless history, same as on all other group collab chat platforms. but i realize that dino perhaps isn't made for that, and that i'm abusing it
  20. raucao at least there's a comment on that wiki page now, so someone else like can find out about it being missing
  21. Zash this seems to be a lot of text written for something that's planned but just not done yet?
  22. raucao sry :)
  23. raucao someone's saying it's not important, and i'm trying to explain why i think it is. nuff said. laterz
  24. raucao and thanks for dino :)
  25. pep. :)
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  27. raucao i do have an actual question that's more on topic though: default limit of participants in my rooms is 200, according to the room settings. does anyone have experience with a few thousand users in one room?
  28. raucao and is that limit for active online users only?
  29. raucao afaik in MIX, presence is persistent, so it works more like the collab chat apps i mentioned
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  32. raucao just wondering if anyone has experience with groups at scale...
  33. larma the limit is for currently online users
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  35. raucao good to know
  36. raucao thx
  37. larma and you can certainly have MUCs with several thousand of people in there, joining them may take some time on slow connections though
  38. raucao you mean receiving presence may take some time
  39. raucao from the other users
  40. Zash I think I've only seen IRC channels with participants in the thousands, and those were impossible to follow, anything said would be drowned in noise
  41. Zash I believe that humans don't easily scale to groups that size without very strict management.
  42. raucao most people in public channels just idle
  43. raucao and read
  44. raucao same as most people on twitter never post
  45. larma yeah, I know these kind of rooms
  46. raucao i'm joined in some
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  48. larma technically, if you only plan to read, you could also just not join and only fetch MAM...
  49. raucao now that there's matrix bridges for a lot of irc channels, being are always joined
  50. raucao s/being/people
  51. raucao larma: that's bad for the project/group though. seeing presence of other people is important
  52. larma yeah, I hate it when that happens, because the people on the bridge often don't understand they are bridged to an IRC channel and that some people are not online all the time and thus don't get all messages 😀
  53. raucao see gitter etc.
  54. larma if they don't write, why is presence important?
  55. raucao to be fair, people who actually use irc usually also run a bouncer
  56. larma raucao, true
  57. raucao it's important to see that a project/channel is not just 5 people, when there's a lot of interest
  58. raucao to gauge activity of the project overall
  59. raucao and success/interest
  60. larma ah, but you could also solve that with just a number, you don't need a full blown member list
  61. raucao that's a ui detail
  62. raucao there's no reason not to have a member list
  63. raucao also mostly client implementation problem to solve
  64. raucao in terms of performance
  65. larma well, the reason is that fetching 5000 members is a huge burden to clients
  66. raucao you don't need to re-fetch that all the time
  67. larma I know for certain that Telegram does not fetch the full member list, they do fetch the member number and as soon as you open channel details they fetch members by last activity in pages (further loading while scrolling)
  68. raucao yeah, that's reasonable
  69. raucao caching offline is also reasonable
  70. larma but that's kind of a completely different concept then what we typically do in XMPP 😉
  71. raucao you shouldn't get everything live all the time, when it's not necessary. it's not much data to store locally
  72. larma I agree it would be great if we could get diffs on MUC join instead of the full list
  73. raucao just because existing clients have done it differently in the past is no good reason to not improve it in the future
  74. Zash You mean MIX?
  75. larma though many people leave the room over night
  76. larma MIX is more like Matrix room management: people never leave 😀
  77. raucao yes, that's preferable for collab channels imo
  78. raucao looking forward to MIX
  79. raucao diffs would also be cool
  80. raucao but you can easily fetch 1000 participants in the background, after fetching all the stuff that is more important
  81. raucao and in the meantime show the cached data
  82. raucao for participants
  83. larma depends on your network
  84. raucao of course
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  86. larma I don't see you fetching 1000 participants just because on the 64k connection
  87. raucao you could still do it, as long as you cache the data, and you queue those requests after MAM ones, so they don't block actual chat usage/history ;)
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  92. pep. TIL there is a MUC participant limit
  93. pep. I expected there were technical limits, I didn't know there was an actualy implementation limit
  94. pep. I expected there were technical limits, I didn't know there was an actual implementation limit
  95. Zash ejabberd?
  96. pep. k
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  147. lovetox i think in all that discussion you failed to make it clear that the "room options" as he thought, is the configuration of the MUC on the server itself and he only sees it because he is admin. It makes in no scenario sense to hide admin configuration options for a server only because the client the admin uses cant use that feature if its activated
  148. lovetox thats like, oh your terminal is not an XMPP client, i guess you cant edit the XMPP Server configuration file :)
  149. lovetox btw joining a IRC bridged channel
  150. lovetox like #python with 2000+ users needs around 3-4 seconds
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  191. Ge0rG raucao: are you still in need of a wiki account?
  192. pep. lovetox, that's up to the client to make that bearable UX-wise I guess :)
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  195. pep. I'm in #archlinux with about the same number of participants and it's just fine
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  259. raucao I was fully aware of what the room options are. I even explained it back.
  260. raucao Still think that's bad UX wise. You assume room owners are always xmpp experts. I even know a lot about it and it got me
  261. raucao Ge0rG: yup
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  309. lovetox does anybody have a xmpp server
  310. lovetox that does not allow IBR?
  311. lovetox seems every server i test has it activated
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  316. lovetox ok xmpp.org
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  325. Martin mdosch.de also doesn't have public ibr
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  328. lovetox but it announces it nevertheless in its stream features
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  333. Martin Yeah, that's the snippet module. But you can only register with a valid token.
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  335. Martin Or it's f'd up and i'll have a lot of spammers soon.
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  338. lovetox Martin, on request you return a register form
  339. lovetox whats the snippet module?
  340. lovetox is there docs somewhere
  341. Zash snikket?
  342. lovetox or that
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  344. lovetox ok so what is snikket
  345. lovetox seems like it forks conversation
  346. lovetox please someone give me the gist im not getting it from the homepage
  347. moparisthebest Friendly conversations and prosody fork
  348. moparisthebest Kinda aimed at people who just want secure private self hosted chat and don't know or care what XMPP is
  349. jonas’ lovetox, client & server from the same brand, friends&family targeted, easy invitations
  350. moparisthebest Ie normal people, not anyone here
  351. jonas’ yeah, that
  352. lovetox ok and who does that project?
  353. Zash MattJ
  354. Zash I guess I helped some, and Daniel helped with the Conversations bits
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  356. lovetox ok so you can only register with a invite
  357. jonas’ yes
  358. lovetox but snikket server are still federated i guess with all other servers
  359. jonas’ yes
  360. lovetox ok and how does that token thing work protocol wise, is this somewhere specified?
  361. jonas’ XEP-0401
  362. Zash Or some version of it
  363. jonas’ probably "some version of it"
  364. lovetox k thanks
  365. jonas’ possibly the one which is pending OK from the author
  366. lovetox ok but how i read xep 401 it does not mandate that the ibr register namespace is announced in stream features
  367. lovetox so Martin i dont think that has something to do with it
  368. lovetox you should check your config and disable IBR if you really want it
  369. Zash lovetox: https://docs.modernxmpp.org/client/invites/
  370. Zash I think that's what's currently implemented
  371. lovetox so that intentional?
  372. lovetox why was <register xmlns='urn:xmpp:invite'/> not enough?
  373. lovetox this thing has absolutely nothing to do with the IBR XEP so i dont really get why you reuse the namespace
  374. jonas’ there’s a lot of fun discussion around this
  375. lovetox or is registration still possible with IBR
  376. lovetox then its ok i guess
  377. Zash IIRC it uses IBR, but you need to provide the token first
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  379. lovetox if someone write a new registration XEP, i would really stay miles away from anything that touches IBR
  380. Zash > In the success case, the client proceeds with registration using e.g. XEP-0077 in the normal way.
  381. lovetox like its complex enough, no need to add more on top
  382. MattJ lovetox: it was designed this way exactly to detach it from IBR
  383. MattJ After the preauth step you can use any protocol to create an account
  384. MattJ Just that IBR is all we have right now
  385. lovetox so if i use IBR directly i get a error
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  387. Martin lovetox: > ok but how i read xep 401 it does not mandate that the ibr register namespace is announced in stream features > so Martin i dont think that has something to do with it > you should check your config and disable IBR if you really want it I had to enable register for it to work. But it should be impossible to register without an invite. As I don't see spam activity from my server I guess ibr is not wide open.
  388. lovetox hm yeah i think i misunderstood how that works
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  390. lovetox MattJ, hm what happens if i disconnect after i sent the auth token, is it still valid on reconnect?
  391. lovetox ok
  392. lovetox yes, it says that in the docs
  393. lovetox ok looks good, maybe i add this in Gajim soon, as i redo the account wizard right now
  394. lovetox there is an example to register a specific username
  395. lovetox but its not mentioned later how that works
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  397. MattJ lovetox: that's in the XEP, but basically you just have to use the username in the URI or you'll get an error when you try to register
  398. MattJ I think it's in the XEP anyway, but a lot of what I thought was in the XEP later turned out not to be...
  399. MattJ Anyway, if you implement it, let me know :)
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  402. lovetox MattJ a server to test against would be great with a view tokens if you have that available
  403. jonas’ I hear snikket is easy to install
  404. Zash If you're non-technical
  405. lovetox yeah i guess i could install it on my own server
  406. MattJ lovetox: can provide a dev server with an endless supply of tokens, but probably not today
  407. lovetox yeah sometime next week would be great
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