jdev - 2020-03-15


  1. raucao

    i can only think of a single one, which is already handled in dino. that is channel vs group

  2. raucao

    i cannot imagine a channel that has logs activated where it's not wanted

  3. raucao

    gotta run. thanks for your insights

  4. larma

    some people mind their privacy

  5. raucao

    and good luck with 0.2

  6. raucao

    there is no privacy in a public room or work room

  7. raucao

    pretending you have control over it is lying to people

  8. larma

    if I configure the room such that only people that have been in at least once can see the MAM history, I can gather a list of users that are able to read the messages I wrote

  9. larma

    *at least once before a message

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  11. larma

    basically MAM being activated for a user the first time they join

  12. larma

    and disabled as soon as they get banned

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  18. raucao

    i don't see that as a wide issue with any other platform that has seamless history. and if you're banned you would likely not expect to get the history

  19. raucao

    the point is still that normal users and especially groups of users who use it for collaboration, expect seamless history, same as on all other group collab chat platforms. but i realize that dino perhaps isn't made for that, and that i'm abusing it

  20. raucao

    at least there's a comment on that wiki page now, so someone else like can find out about it being missing

  21. Zash

    this seems to be a lot of text written for something that's planned but just not done yet?

  22. raucao

    sry :)

  23. raucao

    someone's saying it's not important, and i'm trying to explain why i think it is. nuff said. laterz

  24. raucao

    and thanks for dino :)

  25. pep.

    :)

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  27. raucao

    i do have an actual question that's more on topic though: default limit of participants in my rooms is 200, according to the room settings. does anyone have experience with a few thousand users in one room?

  28. raucao

    and is that limit for active online users only?

  29. raucao

    afaik in MIX, presence is persistent, so it works more like the collab chat apps i mentioned

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  32. raucao

    just wondering if anyone has experience with groups at scale...

  33. larma

    the limit is for currently online users

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  35. raucao

    good to know

  36. raucao

    thx

  37. larma

    and you can certainly have MUCs with several thousand of people in there, joining them may take some time on slow connections though

  38. raucao

    you mean receiving presence may take some time

  39. raucao

    from the other users

  40. Zash

    I think I've only seen IRC channels with participants in the thousands, and those were impossible to follow, anything said would be drowned in noise

  41. Zash

    I believe that humans don't easily scale to groups that size without very strict management.

  42. raucao

    most people in public channels just idle

  43. raucao

    and read

  44. raucao

    same as most people on twitter never post

  45. larma

    yeah, I know these kind of rooms

  46. raucao

    i'm joined in some

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  48. larma

    technically, if you only plan to read, you could also just not join and only fetch MAM...

  49. raucao

    now that there's matrix bridges for a lot of irc channels, being are always joined

  50. raucao

    s/being/people

  51. raucao

    larma: that's bad for the project/group though. seeing presence of other people is important

  52. larma

    yeah, I hate it when that happens, because the people on the bridge often don't understand they are bridged to an IRC channel and that some people are not online all the time and thus don't get all messages 😀

  53. raucao

    see gitter etc.

  54. larma

    if they don't write, why is presence important?

  55. raucao

    to be fair, people who actually use irc usually also run a bouncer

  56. larma

    raucao, true

  57. raucao

    it's important to see that a project/channel is not just 5 people, when there's a lot of interest

  58. raucao

    to gauge activity of the project overall

  59. raucao

    and success/interest

  60. larma

    ah, but you could also solve that with just a number, you don't need a full blown member list

  61. raucao

    that's a ui detail

  62. raucao

    there's no reason not to have a member list

  63. raucao

    also mostly client implementation problem to solve

  64. raucao

    in terms of performance

  65. larma

    well, the reason is that fetching 5000 members is a huge burden to clients

  66. raucao

    you don't need to re-fetch that all the time

  67. larma

    I know for certain that Telegram does not fetch the full member list, they do fetch the member number and as soon as you open channel details they fetch members by last activity in pages (further loading while scrolling)

  68. raucao

    yeah, that's reasonable

  69. raucao

    caching offline is also reasonable

  70. larma

    but that's kind of a completely different concept then what we typically do in XMPP 😉

  71. raucao

    you shouldn't get everything live all the time, when it's not necessary. it's not much data to store locally

  72. larma

    I agree it would be great if we could get diffs on MUC join instead of the full list

  73. raucao

    just because existing clients have done it differently in the past is no good reason to not improve it in the future

  74. Zash

    You mean MIX?

  75. larma

    though many people leave the room over night

  76. larma

    MIX is more like Matrix room management: people never leave 😀

  77. raucao

    yes, that's preferable for collab channels imo

  78. raucao

    looking forward to MIX

  79. raucao

    diffs would also be cool

  80. raucao

    but you can easily fetch 1000 participants in the background, after fetching all the stuff that is more important

  81. raucao

    and in the meantime show the cached data

  82. raucao

    for participants

  83. larma

    depends on your network

  84. raucao

    of course

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  86. larma

    I don't see you fetching 1000 participants just because on the 64k connection

  87. raucao

    you could still do it, as long as you cache the data, and you queue those requests after MAM ones, so they don't block actual chat usage/history ;)

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  92. pep.

    TIL there is a MUC participant limit

  93. pep.

    I expected there were technical limits, I didn't know there was an actualy implementation limit

  94. pep.

    I expected there were technical limits, I didn't know there was an actual implementation limit

  95. Zash

    ejabberd?

  96. pep.

    k

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  147. lovetox

    i think in all that discussion you failed to make it clear that the "room options" as he thought, is the configuration of the MUC on the server itself and he only sees it because he is admin. It makes in no scenario sense to hide admin configuration options for a server only because the client the admin uses cant use that feature if its activated

  148. lovetox

    thats like, oh your terminal is not an XMPP client, i guess you cant edit the XMPP Server configuration file :)

  149. lovetox

    btw joining a IRC bridged channel

  150. lovetox

    like #python with 2000+ users needs around 3-4 seconds

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  191. Ge0rG

    raucao: are you still in need of a wiki account?

  192. pep.

    lovetox, that's up to the client to make that bearable UX-wise I guess :)

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  195. pep.

    I'm in #archlinux with about the same number of participants and it's just fine

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  259. raucao

    I was fully aware of what the room options are. I even explained it back.

  260. raucao

    Still think that's bad UX wise. You assume room owners are always xmpp experts. I even know a lot about it and it got me

  261. raucao

    Ge0rG: yup

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  309. lovetox

    does anybody have a xmpp server

  310. lovetox

    that does not allow IBR?

  311. lovetox

    seems every server i test has it activated

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  316. lovetox

    ok xmpp.org

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  325. Martin

    mdosch.de also doesn't have public ibr

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  328. lovetox

    but it announces it nevertheless in its stream features

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  333. Martin

    Yeah, that's the snippet module. But you can only register with a valid token.

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  335. Martin

    Or it's f'd up and i'll have a lot of spammers soon.

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  338. lovetox

    Martin, on request you return a register form

  339. lovetox

    whats the snippet module?

  340. lovetox

    is there docs somewhere

  341. Zash

    snikket?

  342. lovetox

    or that

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  344. lovetox

    ok so what is snikket

  345. lovetox

    seems like it forks conversation

  346. lovetox

    please someone give me the gist im not getting it from the homepage

  347. moparisthebest

    Friendly conversations and prosody fork

  348. moparisthebest

    Kinda aimed at people who just want secure private self hosted chat and don't know or care what XMPP is

  349. jonas’

    lovetox, client & server from the same brand, friends&family targeted, easy invitations

  350. moparisthebest

    Ie normal people, not anyone here

  351. jonas’

    yeah, that

  352. lovetox

    ok and who does that project?

  353. Zash

    MattJ

  354. Zash

    I guess I helped some, and Daniel helped with the Conversations bits

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  356. lovetox

    ok so you can only register with a invite

  357. jonas’

    yes

  358. lovetox

    but snikket server are still federated i guess with all other servers

  359. jonas’

    yes

  360. lovetox

    ok and how does that token thing work protocol wise, is this somewhere specified?

  361. jonas’

    XEP-0401

  362. Zash

    Or some version of it

  363. jonas’

    probably "some version of it"

  364. lovetox

    k thanks

  365. jonas’

    possibly the one which is pending OK from the author

  366. lovetox

    ok but how i read xep 401 it does not mandate that the ibr register namespace is announced in stream features

  367. lovetox

    so Martin i dont think that has something to do with it

  368. lovetox

    you should check your config and disable IBR if you really want it

  369. Zash

    lovetox: https://docs.modernxmpp.org/client/invites/

  370. Zash

    I think that's what's currently implemented

  371. lovetox

    so that intentional?

  372. lovetox

    why was <register xmlns='urn:xmpp:invite'/> not enough?

  373. lovetox

    this thing has absolutely nothing to do with the IBR XEP so i dont really get why you reuse the namespace

  374. jonas’

    there’s a lot of fun discussion around this

  375. lovetox

    or is registration still possible with IBR

  376. lovetox

    then its ok i guess

  377. Zash

    IIRC it uses IBR, but you need to provide the token first

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  379. lovetox

    if someone write a new registration XEP, i would really stay miles away from anything that touches IBR

  380. Zash

    > In the success case, the client proceeds with registration using e.g. XEP-0077 in the normal way.

  381. lovetox

    like its complex enough, no need to add more on top

  382. MattJ

    lovetox: it was designed this way exactly to detach it from IBR

  383. MattJ

    After the preauth step you can use any protocol to create an account

  384. MattJ

    Just that IBR is all we have right now

  385. lovetox

    so if i use IBR directly i get a error

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  387. Martin

    lovetox: > ok but how i read xep 401 it does not mandate that the ibr register namespace is announced in stream features > so Martin i dont think that has something to do with it > you should check your config and disable IBR if you really want it I had to enable register for it to work. But it should be impossible to register without an invite. As I don't see spam activity from my server I guess ibr is not wide open.

  388. lovetox

    hm yeah i think i misunderstood how that works

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  390. lovetox

    MattJ, hm what happens if i disconnect after i sent the auth token, is it still valid on reconnect?

  391. lovetox

    ok

  392. lovetox

    yes, it says that in the docs

  393. lovetox

    ok looks good, maybe i add this in Gajim soon, as i redo the account wizard right now

  394. lovetox

    there is an example to register a specific username

  395. lovetox

    but its not mentioned later how that works

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  397. MattJ

    lovetox: that's in the XEP, but basically you just have to use the username in the URI or you'll get an error when you try to register

  398. MattJ

    I think it's in the XEP anyway, but a lot of what I thought was in the XEP later turned out not to be...

  399. MattJ

    Anyway, if you implement it, let me know :)

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  402. lovetox

    MattJ a server to test against would be great with a view tokens if you have that available

  403. jonas’

    I hear snikket is easy to install

  404. Zash

    If you're non-technical

  405. lovetox

    yeah i guess i could install it on my own server

  406. MattJ

    lovetox: can provide a dev server with an endless supply of tokens, but probably not today

  407. lovetox

    yeah sometime next week would be great

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