jdev - 2020-03-15

  1. raucao

    i can only think of a single one, which is already handled in dino. that is channel vs group

  2. raucao

    i cannot imagine a channel that has logs activated where it's not wanted

  3. raucao

    gotta run. thanks for your insights

  4. larma

    some people mind their privacy

  5. raucao

    and good luck with 0.2

  6. raucao

    there is no privacy in a public room or work room

  7. raucao

    pretending you have control over it is lying to people

  8. larma

    if I configure the room such that only people that have been in at least once can see the MAM history, I can gather a list of users that are able to read the messages I wrote

  9. larma

    *at least once before a message

  10. Marc has left

  11. larma

    basically MAM being activated for a user the first time they join

  12. larma

    and disabled as soon as they get banned

  13. Жокир has left

  14. Жокир has joined

  15. Жокир has left

  16. Жокир has joined

  17. kikuchiyo has joined

  18. raucao

    i don't see that as a wide issue with any other platform that has seamless history. and if you're banned you would likely not expect to get the history

  19. raucao

    the point is still that normal users and especially groups of users who use it for collaboration, expect seamless history, same as on all other group collab chat platforms. but i realize that dino perhaps isn't made for that, and that i'm abusing it

  20. raucao

    at least there's a comment on that wiki page now, so someone else like can find out about it being missing

  21. Zash

    this seems to be a lot of text written for something that's planned but just not done yet?

  22. raucao

    sry :)

  23. raucao

    someone's saying it's not important, and i'm trying to explain why i think it is. nuff said. laterz

  24. raucao

    and thanks for dino :)

  25. pep.


  26. kikuchiyo has left

  27. raucao

    i do have an actual question that's more on topic though: default limit of participants in my rooms is 200, according to the room settings. does anyone have experience with a few thousand users in one room?

  28. raucao

    and is that limit for active online users only?

  29. raucao

    afaik in MIX, presence is persistent, so it works more like the collab chat apps i mentioned

  30. Syndace has left

  31. Syndace has joined

  32. raucao

    just wondering if anyone has experience with groups at scale...

  33. larma

    the limit is for currently online users

  34. Jeybe has left

  35. raucao

    good to know

  36. raucao


  37. larma

    and you can certainly have MUCs with several thousand of people in there, joining them may take some time on slow connections though

  38. raucao

    you mean receiving presence may take some time

  39. raucao

    from the other users

  40. Zash

    I think I've only seen IRC channels with participants in the thousands, and those were impossible to follow, anything said would be drowned in noise

  41. Zash

    I believe that humans don't easily scale to groups that size without very strict management.

  42. raucao

    most people in public channels just idle

  43. raucao

    and read

  44. raucao

    same as most people on twitter never post

  45. larma

    yeah, I know these kind of rooms

  46. raucao

    i'm joined in some

  47. Jeybe has joined

  48. larma

    technically, if you only plan to read, you could also just not join and only fetch MAM...

  49. raucao

    now that there's matrix bridges for a lot of irc channels, being are always joined

  50. raucao


  51. raucao

    larma: that's bad for the project/group though. seeing presence of other people is important

  52. larma

    yeah, I hate it when that happens, because the people on the bridge often don't understand they are bridged to an IRC channel and that some people are not online all the time and thus don't get all messages 😀

  53. raucao

    see gitter etc.

  54. larma

    if they don't write, why is presence important?

  55. raucao

    to be fair, people who actually use irc usually also run a bouncer

  56. larma

    raucao, true

  57. raucao

    it's important to see that a project/channel is not just 5 people, when there's a lot of interest

  58. raucao

    to gauge activity of the project overall

  59. raucao

    and success/interest

  60. larma

    ah, but you could also solve that with just a number, you don't need a full blown member list

  61. raucao

    that's a ui detail

  62. raucao

    there's no reason not to have a member list

  63. raucao

    also mostly client implementation problem to solve

  64. raucao

    in terms of performance

  65. larma

    well, the reason is that fetching 5000 members is a huge burden to clients

  66. raucao

    you don't need to re-fetch that all the time

  67. larma

    I know for certain that Telegram does not fetch the full member list, they do fetch the member number and as soon as you open channel details they fetch members by last activity in pages (further loading while scrolling)

  68. raucao

    yeah, that's reasonable

  69. raucao

    caching offline is also reasonable

  70. larma

    but that's kind of a completely different concept then what we typically do in XMPP 😉

  71. raucao

    you shouldn't get everything live all the time, when it's not necessary. it's not much data to store locally

  72. larma

    I agree it would be great if we could get diffs on MUC join instead of the full list

  73. raucao

    just because existing clients have done it differently in the past is no good reason to not improve it in the future

  74. Zash

    You mean MIX?

  75. larma

    though many people leave the room over night

  76. larma

    MIX is more like Matrix room management: people never leave 😀

  77. raucao

    yes, that's preferable for collab channels imo

  78. raucao

    looking forward to MIX

  79. raucao

    diffs would also be cool

  80. raucao

    but you can easily fetch 1000 participants in the background, after fetching all the stuff that is more important

  81. raucao

    and in the meantime show the cached data

  82. raucao

    for participants

  83. larma

    depends on your network

  84. raucao

    of course

  85. kikuchiyo has joined

  86. larma

    I don't see you fetching 1000 participants just because on the 64k connection

  87. raucao

    you could still do it, as long as you cache the data, and you queue those requests after MAM ones, so they don't block actual chat usage/history ;)

  88. Jeybe has left

  89. Jeybe has joined

  90. kikuchiyo has left

  91. Jeybe has left

  92. pep.

    TIL there is a MUC participant limit

  93. pep.

    I expected there were technical limits, I didn't know there was an actualy implementation limit

  94. pep.

    I expected there were technical limits, I didn't know there was an actual implementation limit

  95. Zash


  96. pep.


  97. Жокир has left

  98. Жокир has joined

  99. Zash has left

  100. strar has left

  101. Zash has joined

  102. strar has joined

  103. Жокир has left

  104. Жокир has joined

  105. kikuchiyo has joined

  106. kikuchiyo has left

  107. clownsci has joined

  108. debacle has left

  109. clownsci has left

  110. amnesia has joined

  111. Жокир has left

  112. Жокир has joined

  113. kikuchiyo has joined

  114. Жокир has left

  115. kikuchiyo has left

  116. amnesia has left

  117. amnesia has joined

  118. kikuchiyo has joined

  119. kikuchiyo has left

  120. kikuchiyo has joined

  121. kikuchiyo has left

  122. clownsci has joined

  123. kikuchiyo has joined

  124. kikuchiyo has left

  125. amnesia has left

  126. clownsci has left

  127. clownsci has joined

  128. clownsci has left

  129. clownsci has joined

  130. kikuchiyo has joined

  131. clownsci has left

  132. moparisthebest has left

  133. kikuchiyo has left

  134. clownsci has joined

  135. kikuchiyo has joined

  136. paul has joined

  137. paul has left

  138. paul has joined

  139. paul has left

  140. kikuchiyo has left

  141. lovetox has joined

  142. kikuchiyo has joined

  143. kikuchiyo has left

  144. clownsci has left

  145. moparisthebest has joined

  146. paul has joined

  147. lovetox

    i think in all that discussion you failed to make it clear that the "room options" as he thought, is the configuration of the MUC on the server itself and he only sees it because he is admin. It makes in no scenario sense to hide admin configuration options for a server only because the client the admin uses cant use that feature if its activated

  148. lovetox

    thats like, oh your terminal is not an XMPP client, i guess you cant edit the XMPP Server configuration file :)

  149. lovetox

    btw joining a IRC bridged channel

  150. lovetox

    like #python with 2000+ users needs around 3-4 seconds

  151. clownsci has joined

  152. Marc has joined

  153. clownsci has left

  154. clownsci has joined

  155. Marc has left

  156. Marc has joined

  157. clownsci has left

  158. asterix has joined

  159. kikuchiyo has joined

  160. asterix has left

  161. asterix has joined

  162. debacle has joined

  163. Guus has left

  164. Guus has joined

  165. pulkomandy has left

  166. pulkomandy has joined

  167. asterix has left

  168. asterix has joined

  169. lovetox has left

  170. lovetox has joined

  171. pulkomandy has left

  172. Martin has left

  173. Martin has joined

  174. Marc has left

  175. Marc has joined

  176. asterix has left

  177. asterix has joined

  178. Marc has left

  179. Marc has joined

  180. pulkomandy has joined

  181. paul has left

  182. pulkomandy has left

  183. pulkomandy has joined

  184. Marc has left

  185. Marc has joined

  186. paul has joined

  187. asterix has left

  188. asterix has joined

  189. asterix has left

  190. asterix has joined

  191. Ge0rG

    raucao: are you still in need of a wiki account?

  192. pep.

    lovetox, that's up to the client to make that bearable UX-wise I guess :)

  193. Marc has left

  194. Marc has joined

  195. pep.

    I'm in #archlinux with about the same number of participants and it's just fine

  196. Martin has left

  197. Martin has joined

  198. Jeybe has joined

  199. Jeybe has left

  200. Jeybe has joined

  201. pulkomandy has left

  202. Jeybe has left

  203. pulkomandy has joined

  204. Jeybe has joined

  205. gav has left

  206. Martin has left

  207. asterix has left

  208. asterix has joined

  209. Jeybe has left

  210. Martin has joined

  211. Jeybe has joined

  212. DebXWoody has joined

  213. Jeybe has left

  214. kikuchiyo has left

  215. DebXWoody has left

  216. Jeybe has joined

  217. Jeybe has left

  218. debacle has left

  219. Jeybe has joined

  220. DebXWoody has joined

  221. Jeybe has left

  222. strar has left

  223. strar has joined

  224. Jeybe has joined

  225. strar has left

  226. Jeybe has left

  227. strar has joined

  228. Jeybe has joined

  229. gav has joined

  230. Marc has left

  231. Marc has joined

  232. strar has left

  233. strar has joined

  234. pulkomandy has left

  235. pulkomandy has joined

  236. asterix has left

  237. asterix has joined

  238. lovetox has left

  239. Jeybe has left

  240. Jeybe has joined

  241. Jeybe has left

  242. Jeybe has joined

  243. debacle has joined

  244. lovetox has joined

  245. Jeybe has left

  246. Jeybe has joined

  247. Jeybe has left

  248. Jeybe has joined

  249. Jeybe has left

  250. Jeybe has joined

  251. Jeybe has left

  252. Jeybe has joined

  253. kikuchiyo has joined

  254. Jeybe has left

  255. Jeybe has joined

  256. Jeybe has left

  257. Jeybe has joined

  258. lovetox has left

  259. raucao

    I was fully aware of what the room options are. I even explained it back.

  260. raucao

    Still think that's bad UX wise. You assume room owners are always xmpp experts. I even know a lot about it and it got me

  261. raucao

    Ge0rG: yup

  262. asterix has left

  263. asterix has joined

  264. Jeybe has left

  265. Jeybe has joined

  266. Jeybe has left

  267. Jeybe has joined

  268. serge90 has left

  269. serge90 has joined

  270. lovetox has joined

  271. pulkomandy has left

  272. pulkomandy has joined

  273. Jeybe has left

  274. Jeybe has joined

  275. asterix has left

  276. asterix has joined

  277. asterix has left

  278. asterix has joined

  279. Jeybe has left

  280. pulkomandy has left

  281. Jeybe has joined

  282. pulkomandy has joined

  283. Jeybe has left

  284. Jeybe has joined

  285. amnesia has joined

  286. asterix has left

  287. asterix has joined

  288. asterix has left

  289. asterix has joined

  290. pulkomandy has left

  291. pulkomandy has joined

  292. asterix has left

  293. asterix has joined

  294. Jeybe has left

  295. Jeybe has joined

  296. Martin has left

  297. Martin has joined

  298. debacle has left

  299. Jeybe has left

  300. Jeybe has joined

  301. Jeybe has left

  302. Jeybe has joined

  303. Jeybe has left

  304. Jeybe has joined

  305. pulkomandy has left

  306. pulkomandy has joined

  307. Jeybe has left

  308. Jeybe has joined

  309. lovetox

    does anybody have a xmpp server

  310. lovetox

    that does not allow IBR?

  311. lovetox

    seems every server i test has it activated

  312. asterix has left

  313. Jeybe has left

  314. Jeybe has joined

  315. asterix has joined

  316. lovetox

    ok xmpp.org

  317. SouL has left

  318. pulkomandy has left

  319. pulkomandy has joined

  320. SouL has joined

  321. amnesia has left

  322. amnesia has joined

  323. asterix has left

  324. asterix has joined

  325. Martin

    mdosch.de also doesn't have public ibr

  326. Jeybe has left

  327. Jeybe has joined

  328. lovetox

    but it announces it nevertheless in its stream features

  329. asterix has left

  330. asterix has joined

  331. Jeybe has left

  332. Jeybe has joined

  333. Martin

    Yeah, that's the snippet module. But you can only register with a valid token.

  334. sonny has joined

  335. Martin

    Or it's f'd up and i'll have a lot of spammers soon.

  336. asterix has left

  337. asterix has joined

  338. lovetox

    Martin, on request you return a register form

  339. lovetox

    whats the snippet module?

  340. lovetox

    is there docs somewhere

  341. Zash


  342. lovetox

    or that

  343. debacle has joined

  344. lovetox

    ok so what is snikket

  345. lovetox

    seems like it forks conversation

  346. lovetox

    please someone give me the gist im not getting it from the homepage

  347. moparisthebest

    Friendly conversations and prosody fork

  348. moparisthebest

    Kinda aimed at people who just want secure private self hosted chat and don't know or care what XMPP is

  349. jonas’

    lovetox, client & server from the same brand, friends&family targeted, easy invitations

  350. moparisthebest

    Ie normal people, not anyone here

  351. jonas’

    yeah, that

  352. lovetox

    ok and who does that project?

  353. Zash


  354. Zash

    I guess I helped some, and Daniel helped with the Conversations bits

  355. pep. has left

  356. lovetox

    ok so you can only register with a invite

  357. jonas’


  358. lovetox

    but snikket server are still federated i guess with all other servers

  359. jonas’


  360. lovetox

    ok and how does that token thing work protocol wise, is this somewhere specified?

  361. jonas’


  362. Zash

    Or some version of it

  363. jonas’

    probably "some version of it"

  364. lovetox

    k thanks

  365. jonas’

    possibly the one which is pending OK from the author

  366. lovetox

    ok but how i read xep 401 it does not mandate that the ibr register namespace is announced in stream features

  367. lovetox

    so Martin i dont think that has something to do with it

  368. lovetox

    you should check your config and disable IBR if you really want it

  369. Zash

    lovetox: https://docs.modernxmpp.org/client/invites/

  370. Zash

    I think that's what's currently implemented

  371. lovetox

    so that intentional?

  372. lovetox

    why was <register xmlns='urn:xmpp:invite'/> not enough?

  373. lovetox

    this thing has absolutely nothing to do with the IBR XEP so i dont really get why you reuse the namespace

  374. jonas’

    there’s a lot of fun discussion around this

  375. lovetox

    or is registration still possible with IBR

  376. lovetox

    then its ok i guess

  377. Zash

    IIRC it uses IBR, but you need to provide the token first

  378. pep. has joined

  379. lovetox

    if someone write a new registration XEP, i would really stay miles away from anything that touches IBR

  380. Zash

    > In the success case, the client proceeds with registration using e.g. XEP-0077 in the normal way.

  381. lovetox

    like its complex enough, no need to add more on top

  382. MattJ

    lovetox: it was designed this way exactly to detach it from IBR

  383. MattJ

    After the preauth step you can use any protocol to create an account

  384. MattJ

    Just that IBR is all we have right now

  385. lovetox

    so if i use IBR directly i get a error

  386. goffi has joined

  387. Martin

    lovetox: > ok but how i read xep 401 it does not mandate that the ibr register namespace is announced in stream features > so Martin i dont think that has something to do with it > you should check your config and disable IBR if you really want it I had to enable register for it to work. But it should be impossible to register without an invite. As I don't see spam activity from my server I guess ibr is not wide open.

  388. lovetox

    hm yeah i think i misunderstood how that works

  389. pulkomandy has left

  390. lovetox

    MattJ, hm what happens if i disconnect after i sent the auth token, is it still valid on reconnect?

  391. lovetox


  392. lovetox

    yes, it says that in the docs

  393. lovetox

    ok looks good, maybe i add this in Gajim soon, as i redo the account wizard right now

  394. lovetox

    there is an example to register a specific username

  395. lovetox

    but its not mentioned later how that works

  396. pulkomandy has joined

  397. MattJ

    lovetox: that's in the XEP, but basically you just have to use the username in the URI or you'll get an error when you try to register

  398. MattJ

    I think it's in the XEP anyway, but a lot of what I thought was in the XEP later turned out not to be...

  399. MattJ

    Anyway, if you implement it, let me know :)

  400. Jeybe has left

  401. Jeybe has joined

  402. lovetox

    MattJ a server to test against would be great with a view tokens if you have that available

  403. jonas’

    I hear snikket is easy to install

  404. Zash

    If you're non-technical

  405. lovetox

    yeah i guess i could install it on my own server

  406. MattJ

    lovetox: can provide a dev server with an endless supply of tokens, but probably not today

  407. lovetox

    yeah sometime next week would be great

  408. Jeybe has left

  409. Jeybe has joined

  410. Jeybe has left

  411. Jeybe has joined

  412. asterix has left

  413. asterix has joined

  414. Jeybe has left

  415. Jeybe has joined

  416. pulkomandy has left

  417. pulkomandy has joined

  418. Jeybe has left

  419. Jeybe has joined

  420. rion has left

  421. rion has joined

  422. pulkomandy has left

  423. Jeybe has left

  424. Jeybe has joined

  425. Jeybe has left

  426. asterix has left

  427. asterix has joined

  428. Jeybe has joined

  429. pulkomandy has joined

  430. debacle has left

  431. Jeybe has left

  432. Jeybe has joined

  433. Marc has left

  434. Marc has joined

  435. pulkomandy has left

  436. sonny has left

  437. pulkomandy has joined

  438. sonny has joined

  439. Jeybe has left

  440. Jeybe has joined

  441. asterix has left

  442. asterix has joined

  443. Jeybe has left

  444. Jeybe has joined

  445. Jeybe has left

  446. Jeybe has joined

  447. strar has left

  448. Jeybe has left

  449. Jeybe has joined

  450. asterix has left

  451. asterix has joined

  452. strar has joined

  453. Jeybe has left

  454. Jeybe has joined

  455. pulkomandy has left

  456. pulkomandy has joined

  457. kikuchiyo has left

  458. debacle has joined

  459. kikuchiyo has joined

  460. amnesia has left

  461. Jeybe has left

  462. Jeybe has joined

  463. amnesia has joined

  464. Jeybe has left

  465. Jeybe has joined

  466. pulkomandy has left

  467. pulkomandy has joined

  468. Jeybe has left

  469. Jeybe has joined

  470. amnesia has left

  471. pulkomandy has left

  472. amnesia has joined

  473. Martin has left

  474. Martin has joined

  475. pulkomandy has joined

  476. Jeybe has left

  477. Jeybe has joined

  478. Jeybe has left

  479. Jeybe has joined

  480. Jeybe has left

  481. Jeybe has joined

  482. pulkomandy has left

  483. pulkomandy has joined

  484. Jeybe has left

  485. Jeybe has joined

  486. strar has left

  487. strar has joined

  488. Jeybe has left

  489. strar has left

  490. strar has joined

  491. pulkomandy has left

  492. pulkomandy has joined

  493. amnesia has left

  494. amnesia has joined

  495. asterix has left

  496. asterix has joined

  497. DebXWoody has left

  498. amnesia has left

  499. Jeybe has joined

  500. asterix has left

  501. asterix has joined

  502. strar has left

  503. strar has joined

  504. Jeybe has left

  505. Jeybe has joined

  506. asterix has left

  507. asterix has joined

  508. Jeybe has left

  509. Jeybe has joined

  510. Jeybe has left

  511. kikuchiyo has left

  512. kikuchiyo has joined

  513. lovetox has left

  514. pulkomandy has left

  515. pulkomandy has joined

  516. amnesia has joined

  517. kikuchiyo has left

  518. kikuchiyo has joined

  519. asterix has left

  520. goffi has left

  521. kikuchiyo has left

  522. strar has left

  523. kikuchiyo has joined

  524. strar has joined

  525. kikuchiyo has left

  526. kikuchiyo has joined

  527. rion has left

  528. rion has joined

  529. amnesia has left

  530. amnesia has joined

  531. strar has left

  532. strar has joined

  533. paul has left