raucaoi can only think of a single one, which is already handled in dino. that is channel vs group
raucaoi cannot imagine a channel that has logs activated where it's not wanted
raucaogotta run. thanks for your insights
larmasome people mind their privacy
raucaoand good luck with 0.2
raucaothere is no privacy in a public room or work room
raucaopretending you have control over it is lying to people
larmaif I configure the room such that only people that have been in at least once can see the MAM history, I can gather a list of users that are able to read the messages I wrote
larma*at least once before a message
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larmabasically MAM being activated for a user the first time they join
larmaand disabled as soon as they get banned
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raucaoi don't see that as a wide issue with any other platform that has seamless history. and if you're banned you would likely not expect to get the history
raucaothe point is still that normal users and especially groups of users who use it for collaboration, expect seamless history, same as on all other group collab chat platforms. but i realize that dino perhaps isn't made for that, and that i'm abusing it
raucaoat least there's a comment on that wiki page now, so someone else like can find out about it being missing
Zashthis seems to be a lot of text written for something that's planned but just not done yet?
raucaosry :)
raucaosomeone's saying it's not important, and i'm trying to explain why i think it is. nuff said. laterz
raucaoand thanks for dino :)
pep.:)
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raucaoi do have an actual question that's more on topic though: default limit of participants in my rooms is 200, according to the room settings. does anyone have experience with a few thousand users in one room?
raucaoand is that limit for active online users only?
raucaoafaik in MIX, presence is persistent, so it works more like the collab chat apps i mentioned
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raucaojust wondering if anyone has experience with groups at scale...
larmathe limit is for currently online users
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raucaogood to know
raucaothx
larmaand you can certainly have MUCs with several thousand of people in there, joining them may take some time on slow connections though
raucaoyou mean receiving presence may take some time
raucaofrom the other users
ZashI think I've only seen IRC channels with participants in the thousands, and those were impossible to follow, anything said would be drowned in noise
ZashI believe that humans don't easily scale to groups that size without very strict management.
raucaomost people in public channels just idle
raucaoand read
raucaosame as most people on twitter never post
larmayeah, I know these kind of rooms
raucaoi'm joined in some
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larmatechnically, if you only plan to read, you could also just not join and only fetch MAM...
raucaonow that there's matrix bridges for a lot of irc channels, being are always joined
raucaos/being/people
raucaolarma: that's bad for the project/group though. seeing presence of other people is important
larmayeah, I hate it when that happens, because the people on the bridge often don't understand they are bridged to an IRC channel and that some people are not online all the time and thus don't get all messages 😀
raucaosee gitter etc.
larmaif they don't write, why is presence important?
raucaoto be fair, people who actually use irc usually also run a bouncer
larmaraucao, true
raucaoit's important to see that a project/channel is not just 5 people, when there's a lot of interest
raucaoto gauge activity of the project overall
raucaoand success/interest
larmaah, but you could also solve that with just a number, you don't need a full blown member list
raucaothat's a ui detail
raucaothere's no reason not to have a member list
raucaoalso mostly client implementation problem to solve
raucaoin terms of performance
larmawell, the reason is that fetching 5000 members is a huge burden to clients
raucao you don't need to re-fetch that all the time
larmaI know for certain that Telegram does not fetch the full member list, they do fetch the member number and as soon as you open channel details they fetch members by last activity in pages (further loading while scrolling)
raucaoyeah, that's reasonable
raucaocaching offline is also reasonable
larmabut that's kind of a completely different concept then what we typically do in XMPP 😉
raucaoyou shouldn't get everything live all the time, when it's not necessary. it's not much data to store locally
larmaI agree it would be great if we could get diffs on MUC join instead of the full list
raucaojust because existing clients have done it differently in the past is no good reason to not improve it in the future
ZashYou mean MIX?
larmathough many people leave the room over night
larmaMIX is more like Matrix room management: people never leave 😀
raucaoyes, that's preferable for collab channels imo
raucaolooking forward to MIX
raucaodiffs would also be cool
raucaobut you can easily fetch 1000 participants in the background, after fetching all the stuff that is more important
raucaoand in the meantime show the cached data
raucaofor participants
larmadepends on your network
raucaoof course
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larmaI don't see you fetching 1000 participants just because on the 64k connection
raucaoyou could still do it, as long as you cache the data, and you queue those requests after MAM ones, so they don't block actual chat usage/history ;)
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pep.TIL there is a MUC participant limit
pep.I expected there were technical limits, I didn't know there was an actualy implementation limit
pep.I expected there were technical limits, I didn't know there was an actual implementation limit
Zashejabberd?
pep.k
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lovetoxi think in all that discussion you failed to make it clear that the "room options" as he thought, is the configuration of the MUC on the server itself and he only sees it because he is admin. It makes in no scenario sense to hide admin configuration options for a server only because the client the admin uses cant use that feature if its activated
lovetoxthats like, oh your terminal is not an XMPP client, i guess you cant edit the XMPP Server configuration file :)
lovetoxbtw joining a IRC bridged channel
lovetoxlike #python with 2000+ users needs around 3-4 seconds
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Ge0rGraucao: are you still in need of a wiki account?
pep.lovetox, that's up to the client to make that bearable UX-wise I guess :)
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pep.I'm in #archlinux with about the same number of participants and it's just fine
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raucaoI was fully aware of what the room options are. I even explained it back.
raucaoStill think that's bad UX wise. You assume room owners are always xmpp experts. I even know a lot about it and it got me
raucaoGe0rG: yup
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lovetoxdoes anybody have a xmpp server
lovetoxthat does not allow IBR?
lovetoxseems every server i test has it activated
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lovetoxok xmpp.org
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Martinmdosch.de also doesn't have public ibr
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lovetoxbut it announces it nevertheless in its stream features
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MartinYeah, that's the snippet module. But you can only register with a valid token.
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MartinOr it's f'd up and i'll have a lot of spammers soon.
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lovetoxMartin, on request you return a register form
lovetoxwhats the snippet module?
lovetoxis there docs somewhere
Zashsnikket?
lovetoxor that
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lovetoxok so what is snikket
lovetoxseems like it forks conversation
lovetoxplease someone give me the gist im not getting it from the homepage
moparisthebestFriendly conversations and prosody fork
moparisthebestKinda aimed at people who just want secure private self hosted chat and don't know or care what XMPP is
jonas’lovetox, client & server from the same brand, friends&family targeted, easy invitations
moparisthebestIe normal people, not anyone here
jonas’yeah, that
lovetoxok and who does that project?
ZashMattJ
ZashI guess I helped some, and Daniel helped with the Conversations bits
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lovetoxok so you can only register with a invite
jonas’yes
lovetoxbut snikket server are still federated i guess with all other servers
jonas’yes
lovetoxok and how does that token thing work protocol wise, is this somewhere specified?
jonas’XEP-0401
ZashOr some version of it
jonas’probably "some version of it"
lovetoxk thanks
jonas’possibly the one which is pending OK from the author
lovetoxok but how i read xep 401 it does not mandate that the ibr register namespace is announced in stream features
lovetoxso Martin i dont think that has something to do with it
lovetoxyou should check your config and disable IBR if you really want it
lovetoxwhy was <register xmlns='urn:xmpp:invite'/> not enough?
lovetoxthis thing has absolutely nothing to do with the IBR XEP so i dont really get why you reuse the namespace
jonas’there’s a lot of fun discussion around this
lovetoxor is registration still possible with IBR
lovetoxthen its ok i guess
ZashIIRC it uses IBR, but you need to provide the token first
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lovetoxif someone write a new registration XEP, i would really stay miles away from anything that touches IBR
Zash> In the success case, the client proceeds with registration using e.g. XEP-0077 in the normal way.
lovetoxlike its complex enough, no need to add more on top
MattJlovetox: it was designed this way exactly to detach it from IBR
MattJAfter the preauth step you can use any protocol to create an account
MattJJust that IBR is all we have right now
lovetoxso if i use IBR directly i get a error
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Martinlovetox:
> ok but how i read xep 401 it does not mandate that the ibr register namespace is announced in stream features
> so Martin i dont think that has something to do with it
> you should check your config and disable IBR if you really want it
I had to enable register for it to work. But it should be impossible to register without an invite. As I don't see spam activity from my server I guess ibr is not wide open.
lovetoxhm yeah i think i misunderstood how that works
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lovetoxMattJ, hm what happens if i disconnect after i sent the auth token, is it still valid on reconnect?
lovetoxok
lovetoxyes, it says that in the docs
lovetoxok looks good, maybe i add this in Gajim soon, as i redo the account wizard right now
lovetoxthere is an example to register a specific username
lovetoxbut its not mentioned later how that works
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MattJlovetox: that's in the XEP, but basically you just have to use the username in the URI or you'll get an error when you try to register
MattJI think it's in the XEP anyway, but a lot of what I thought was in the XEP later turned out not to be...
MattJAnyway, if you implement it, let me know :)
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lovetoxMattJ a server to test against would be great with a view tokens if you have that available
jonas’I hear snikket is easy to install
ZashIf you're non-technical
lovetoxyeah i guess i could install it on my own server
MattJlovetox: can provide a dev server with an endless supply of tokens, but probably not today