i can only think of a single one, which is already handled in dino. that is channel vs group
raucao
i cannot imagine a channel that has logs activated where it's not wanted
raucao
gotta run. thanks for your insights
larma
some people mind their privacy
raucao
and good luck with 0.2
raucao
there is no privacy in a public room or work room
raucao
pretending you have control over it is lying to people
larma
if I configure the room such that only people that have been in at least once can see the MAM history, I can gather a list of users that are able to read the messages I wrote
larma
*at least once before a message
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larma
basically MAM being activated for a user the first time they join
larma
and disabled as soon as they get banned
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raucao
i don't see that as a wide issue with any other platform that has seamless history. and if you're banned you would likely not expect to get the history
raucao
the point is still that normal users and especially groups of users who use it for collaboration, expect seamless history, same as on all other group collab chat platforms. but i realize that dino perhaps isn't made for that, and that i'm abusing it
raucao
at least there's a comment on that wiki page now, so someone else like can find out about it being missing
Zash
this seems to be a lot of text written for something that's planned but just not done yet?
raucao
sry :)
raucao
someone's saying it's not important, and i'm trying to explain why i think it is. nuff said. laterz
raucao
and thanks for dino :)
pep.
:)
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raucao
i do have an actual question that's more on topic though: default limit of participants in my rooms is 200, according to the room settings. does anyone have experience with a few thousand users in one room?
raucao
and is that limit for active online users only?
raucao
afaik in MIX, presence is persistent, so it works more like the collab chat apps i mentioned
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raucao
just wondering if anyone has experience with groups at scale...
larma
the limit is for currently online users
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raucao
good to know
raucao
thx
larma
and you can certainly have MUCs with several thousand of people in there, joining them may take some time on slow connections though
raucao
you mean receiving presence may take some time
raucao
from the other users
Zash
I think I've only seen IRC channels with participants in the thousands, and those were impossible to follow, anything said would be drowned in noise
Zash
I believe that humans don't easily scale to groups that size without very strict management.
raucao
most people in public channels just idle
raucao
and read
raucao
same as most people on twitter never post
larma
yeah, I know these kind of rooms
raucao
i'm joined in some
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larma
technically, if you only plan to read, you could also just not join and only fetch MAM...
raucao
now that there's matrix bridges for a lot of irc channels, being are always joined
raucao
s/being/people
raucao
larma: that's bad for the project/group though. seeing presence of other people is important
larma
yeah, I hate it when that happens, because the people on the bridge often don't understand they are bridged to an IRC channel and that some people are not online all the time and thus don't get all messages 😀
raucao
see gitter etc.
larma
if they don't write, why is presence important?
raucao
to be fair, people who actually use irc usually also run a bouncer
larma
raucao, true
raucao
it's important to see that a project/channel is not just 5 people, when there's a lot of interest
raucao
to gauge activity of the project overall
raucao
and success/interest
larma
ah, but you could also solve that with just a number, you don't need a full blown member list
raucao
that's a ui detail
raucao
there's no reason not to have a member list
raucao
also mostly client implementation problem to solve
raucao
in terms of performance
larma
well, the reason is that fetching 5000 members is a huge burden to clients
raucao
you don't need to re-fetch that all the time
larma
I know for certain that Telegram does not fetch the full member list, they do fetch the member number and as soon as you open channel details they fetch members by last activity in pages (further loading while scrolling)
raucao
yeah, that's reasonable
raucao
caching offline is also reasonable
larma
but that's kind of a completely different concept then what we typically do in XMPP 😉
raucao
you shouldn't get everything live all the time, when it's not necessary. it's not much data to store locally
larma
I agree it would be great if we could get diffs on MUC join instead of the full list
raucao
just because existing clients have done it differently in the past is no good reason to not improve it in the future
Zash
You mean MIX?
larma
though many people leave the room over night
larma
MIX is more like Matrix room management: people never leave 😀
raucao
yes, that's preferable for collab channels imo
raucao
looking forward to MIX
raucao
diffs would also be cool
raucao
but you can easily fetch 1000 participants in the background, after fetching all the stuff that is more important
raucao
and in the meantime show the cached data
raucao
for participants
larma
depends on your network
raucao
of course
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larma
I don't see you fetching 1000 participants just because on the 64k connection
raucao
you could still do it, as long as you cache the data, and you queue those requests after MAM ones, so they don't block actual chat usage/history ;)
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pep.
TIL there is a MUC participant limit
pep.
I expected there were technical limits, I didn't know there was an actualy implementation limit✎
pep.
I expected there were technical limits, I didn't know there was an actual implementation limit ✏
Zash
ejabberd?
pep.
k
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lovetox
i think in all that discussion you failed to make it clear that the "room options" as he thought, is the configuration of the MUC on the server itself and he only sees it because he is admin. It makes in no scenario sense to hide admin configuration options for a server only because the client the admin uses cant use that feature if its activated
lovetox
thats like, oh your terminal is not an XMPP client, i guess you cant edit the XMPP Server configuration file :)
lovetox
btw joining a IRC bridged channel
lovetox
like #python with 2000+ users needs around 3-4 seconds
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Ge0rG
raucao: are you still in need of a wiki account?
pep.
lovetox, that's up to the client to make that bearable UX-wise I guess :)
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pep.
I'm in #archlinux with about the same number of participants and it's just fine
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raucao
I was fully aware of what the room options are. I even explained it back.
raucao
Still think that's bad UX wise. You assume room owners are always xmpp experts. I even know a lot about it and it got me
raucao
Ge0rG: yup
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lovetox
does anybody have a xmpp server
lovetox
that does not allow IBR?
lovetox
seems every server i test has it activated
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lovetox
ok xmpp.org
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Martin
mdosch.de also doesn't have public ibr
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lovetox
but it announces it nevertheless in its stream features
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Martin
Yeah, that's the snippet module. But you can only register with a valid token.
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Martin
Or it's f'd up and i'll have a lot of spammers soon.
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lovetox
Martin, on request you return a register form
lovetox
whats the snippet module?
lovetox
is there docs somewhere
Zash
snikket?
lovetox
or that
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lovetox
ok so what is snikket
lovetox
seems like it forks conversation
lovetox
please someone give me the gist im not getting it from the homepage
moparisthebest
Friendly conversations and prosody fork
moparisthebest
Kinda aimed at people who just want secure private self hosted chat and don't know or care what XMPP is
jonas’
lovetox, client & server from the same brand, friends&family targeted, easy invitations
moparisthebest
Ie normal people, not anyone here
jonas’
yeah, that
lovetox
ok and who does that project?
Zash
MattJ
Zash
I guess I helped some, and Daniel helped with the Conversations bits
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lovetox
ok so you can only register with a invite
jonas’
yes
lovetox
but snikket server are still federated i guess with all other servers
jonas’
yes
lovetox
ok and how does that token thing work protocol wise, is this somewhere specified?
jonas’
XEP-0401
Zash
Or some version of it
jonas’
probably "some version of it"
lovetox
k thanks
jonas’
possibly the one which is pending OK from the author
lovetox
ok but how i read xep 401 it does not mandate that the ibr register namespace is announced in stream features
lovetox
so Martin i dont think that has something to do with it
lovetox
you should check your config and disable IBR if you really want it
why was <register xmlns='urn:xmpp:invite'/> not enough?
lovetox
this thing has absolutely nothing to do with the IBR XEP so i dont really get why you reuse the namespace
jonas’
there’s a lot of fun discussion around this
lovetox
or is registration still possible with IBR
lovetox
then its ok i guess
Zash
IIRC it uses IBR, but you need to provide the token first
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lovetox
if someone write a new registration XEP, i would really stay miles away from anything that touches IBR
Zash
> In the success case, the client proceeds with registration using e.g. XEP-0077 in the normal way.
lovetox
like its complex enough, no need to add more on top
MattJ
lovetox: it was designed this way exactly to detach it from IBR
MattJ
After the preauth step you can use any protocol to create an account
MattJ
Just that IBR is all we have right now
lovetox
so if i use IBR directly i get a error
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Martin
lovetox:
> ok but how i read xep 401 it does not mandate that the ibr register namespace is announced in stream features
> so Martin i dont think that has something to do with it
> you should check your config and disable IBR if you really want it
I had to enable register for it to work. But it should be impossible to register without an invite. As I don't see spam activity from my server I guess ibr is not wide open.
lovetox
hm yeah i think i misunderstood how that works
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lovetox
MattJ, hm what happens if i disconnect after i sent the auth token, is it still valid on reconnect?
lovetox
ok
lovetox
yes, it says that in the docs
lovetox
ok looks good, maybe i add this in Gajim soon, as i redo the account wizard right now
lovetox
there is an example to register a specific username
lovetox
but its not mentioned later how that works
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MattJ
lovetox: that's in the XEP, but basically you just have to use the username in the URI or you'll get an error when you try to register
MattJ
I think it's in the XEP anyway, but a lot of what I thought was in the XEP later turned out not to be...
MattJ
Anyway, if you implement it, let me know :)
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lovetox
MattJ a server to test against would be great with a view tokens if you have that available
jonas’
I hear snikket is easy to install
Zash
If you're non-technical
lovetox
yeah i guess i could install it on my own server
MattJ
lovetox: can provide a dev server with an endless supply of tokens, but probably not today