jdev - 2020-04-04

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  139. lovetox

    finally i have some time to get a bit into gateway stuff

  140. lovetox

    the XEP says a client can add the gateway to its roster

  141. lovetox

    Gajim does that, and i never found a use for that

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  143. lovetox

    now i can chat with the gateway?

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  145. lovetox

    one thing that is useful, is its an entry point into issuing adhoc commands, but in Gajim you can do this from other parts of the application as well

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  147. Ge0rG

    lovetox: there is another benefit to that: the gateway is automatically receiving your presence updates

  148. lovetox

    ah ok so he relates my presence then to the other service

  149. Zash

    But it would also get presence for every contact it adds

  150. lovetox

    ok thats a reason to have it in the roster internally, is there a reason to expose this as UI contact in the roster?

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  152. Zash

    Sometimes there are ad-hoc commands or other actions you can take

  153. Zash

    While not a gateway, I have some pubsub services that works a bit like chat bots, and it's annoying when clients decide to hide them or prevent sending messages to them

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  156. lovetox

    ok lets say its a gateway for facebook

  157. lovetox

    facebook has a kind of roster

  158. lovetox

    if i register there, the gateway sends me presences of all the users on my facebook roster

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  160. lovetox

    then i can add them to my roster

  161. lovetox

    if i unregister from the transport i have to remove all the contacts from my roster

  162. Zash

    Didn't Gajim support roster item exchange?

  163. Zash

    There's also a thing where the transport is allowed direct access to your roster by the server.

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  167. lovetox

    Zash is this another XEP?

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  181. Zash

    lovetox: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0321.html

  182. Zash

    The other was https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0144.html

  183. lovetox


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  198. lovetox

    hm, how can i keep track to what transports im registered?

  199. lovetox

    say i register to 5 transports, then i clear all my application data, reset my client, and login the first time again

  200. lovetox

    now the server sends me my roster, but i cant really know what of these contacts are gateways

  201. lovetox

    i would have to disco info every single contact

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  203. lovetox

    can i assume that all transport JIDs are only domains?

  204. lovetox

    so dont contain an @

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  211. Zash

    lovetox: Not sure if there are transports of this kind that are not bare host JIDs, however there may be bare host JIDs in the roster that are not transports.

  212. Zash

    I suppose you'll have to disco#info to be sure

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  215. lovetox

    yeah, but at least i dont have to disco info my whole roster

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  221. lovetox

    The address of a gateway itself SHOULD be a hostname only, and that hostname SHOULD NOT be supplemented with a resource identifier when referring to the gateway's address

  222. lovetox

    so i guess SHOULD is fine enough for me

  223. Zash

    You could also guess that it's a gateway if you also have a bunch of bare jids from the same domain.

  224. lovetox

    for now i plan, if its only a bare jid, then disco info, if it is a gateway send a iq:register to see if im registered

  225. lovetox

    or i can assume from the fact that i have a active subscription that im registered

  226. lovetox

    as XEP says on unregister the gateway should send unsubscribe

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  291. lovetox

    ok first transport i look into twitter from spectrum2

  292. lovetox

    and it sends me a presence with a caps node https://gajim.org

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  295. lovetox

    hm and spectrum2 project seems not very active

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  319. moparisthebest

    lovetox: cheogram.com is a transport I (and probably a lot of people) add and use from gajim

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  321. moparisthebest

    Gajim is the only client that properly marks contacts from it with a mobile phone icon

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  324. moparisthebest

    https://jmp.chat for a free trial if you want to play with it

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  343. lovetox

    thanks moparisthebest will try

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  356. lovetox

    moparisthebest, is there also something like jmp for non-us?

  357. lovetox

    if i use this to send a sms to someone where i live, and they answer they probably pay much because they are sending sms to the US

  358. moparisthebest

    You can send/recieve with non-us/Canada numbers but they haven't had luck finding providers in other countries

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  360. moparisthebest

    Everything they've found is much much more expensive

  361. lovetox


  362. lovetox

    i looked it up its 7 cents from my country to that number

  363. moparisthebest

    lovetox: xmpp:discuss@conference.soprani.ca?join they have a wiki page where they've documented the providers they have found but I can't find it at the moment

  364. lovetox

    foundit on their wiki thanks

  365. moparisthebest

    I did hack up Conversations to provide a similar UI using the number on your phone but I need to revisit that approach, probably conversations fork :'(

  366. lovetox

    Are there not flat rate tarifs in the US for sms?

  367. lovetox

    i understand that its nice to write from a xmpp clients sms

  368. lovetox

    but i dont know if i would pay for that

  369. lovetox

    if i can write sms from my smartphone for "free"

  370. lovetox

    as in i already pay a flatrate

  371. moparisthebest

    In the US most SMS plans are just unlimited everything for 1 price

  372. lovetox

    but seems there are some people who pay for that, otherwise the service would not exist

  373. Zash

    but are they actually unlimited?

  374. moparisthebest

    So if you use the last 3 commits from https://github.com/moparisthebest/Conversations/commits/sms and https://github.com/moparisthebest/xmpp-echo-self you can have the same experience anywhere with your existing number

  375. moparisthebest

    Less bells and whistles, no SIP etc, but at least I don't need to use a damn phone keyboard

  376. moparisthebest

    Zash: for my use yes, usually they have a fine print limiting you to a few thousand I guess

  377. lovetox

    i wonder what keeps me from registering for a new phone number every 30 days

  378. lovetox

    if i own a domain and server, i could register a new user every 30 day

  379. moparisthebest

    Likely nothing, they are more FOSS guys than businessmen :)

  380. Zash

    moparisthebest: You reminded me of how annoying telcos are, and how annoyed I am by not being able to pay for what I use, with only variations of "unlimited (but not really)" to choose from

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  382. Zash

    I miss pay-as-you-go :(

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  417. flow

    lovetox, I think there is much knowledge about how gateways/transports are used in PSI's codebase (and probably gajim's too)

  418. flow

    at least when I think at the era where transports where widely used to bridge to ICQ, MSN, etc. those where the clients you would use

  419. flow

    I still look back at the time when gajim introduced the mata-contact feature in the roster, that was really great!

  420. lovetox

    yeah i still think about how to use meta-contacts in a more useful wa

  421. lovetox

    yeah i still think about how to use meta-contacts in a more useful way

  422. lovetox

    its kind of outdated now

  423. Zash

    There are still those with multiple JIDs, and bridges are apparently coming back for another round

  424. lovetox

    The problem now with transports is to actually find ones that you can develop against

  425. lovetox

    transports that are good and actively maintained

  426. lovetox

    Zash, of course but how would that meta contact work in practice

  427. lovetox

    of course i can group multiple jids into one

  428. lovetox

    but now most of the time all JIDs are online

  429. lovetox

    compared to 10 years ago where only one was online when you were at work, and one when you were at home

  430. lovetox

    so the client always knew, ok i send the message to the online jid

  431. lovetox

    but now with multiple online contacts, its seems weird to spread the messages to multiple devices

  432. flow

    lovetox, I had a lot of contacts with MSN, ICQ, simultanously online ~15 years ago

  433. flow

    metacontacts IIRC made the roster much more accessible

  434. lovetox

    im not talking about the user perspective, of course one contact is nicer then 3

  435. lovetox

    but is it not weird to send messages to the more "active" jid

  436. lovetox

    if both are online

  437. lovetox

    and spreach history over different clients

  438. lovetox

    that are not even synced, they are on different networks

  439. lovetox


  440. Zash

    Maybe bring back the resource locking thing? :)

  441. Zash

    I guess it'll be annoying to have MAM stuff spread over multiple users too

  442. Zash

    So, the lession we learned was that transports will never work perfectly.

  443. Zash

    Their purpose is to reach those who has yet to see the light while letting you stay in the comforts of XMPP

  444. lovetox

    and it becomes more compicated with E2E in the picture

  445. Zash

    Making it a touch annoying is probably fine, you can't avoid it, and if it encourages switching to native XMPP then that's great

  446. lovetox

    imagine you put one skype contact and one xmpp contact into one meta contact

  447. lovetox

    one has E2E the other not

  448. Zash


  449. lovetox

    and the client switching between them based on activity

  450. Zash

    If you use E2EE, always use E2EE

  451. Zash

    Unless the user otherwise I guess

  452. lovetox

    to solve stuff like that it gets so complex and you have to handle so many cases

  453. lovetox

    that i just question is it worth it?

  454. lovetox

    only thing i could see, is that metacontact is like a group thingy, where we just show the user, these JIDs belong all to the same person

  455. lovetox

    but in the end letting the user choose to which address to write

  456. lovetox

    not trying to do some magic

  457. lovetox

    and merging history from all 3

  458. lovetox

    so if the contact writes from any of his devices, it shows in the same chat window

  459. Zash

    where did I put my phone?

  460. Zash

    Dunno how other phones handle it, but Sailfish has a selector thing for different contact methods in the chat/sms where you can pick which phone number to send to. (or XMPP address, or other methods)

  461. lovetox

    yeah something like that i imagine also

  462. Zash

    No idea if it automagically switches if a reply is received from a different method

  463. lovetox

    yeah we could do something like that, switch automatically to the jid we received a message from

  464. lovetox

    so a bit of magic is possible

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  512. lovetox

    hm i heard some do purge offline messges and only sync with mam

  513. lovetox

    but to be safe i should only do this if i know mam is activated on my account

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  515. lovetox

    was there any gotcha with enablind carbons?

  516. lovetox

    or is simply enabling before sending first presence enough

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