jdev - 2020-04-21


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  25. lovetox no
  26. lovetox why? so MAM does archive it?
  27. lovetox or so clients that dont support direct can display something
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  42. Ge0rG lovetox: both of those, yeah
  43. Ge0rG also for Carbons to work
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  51. flow appears that including a fallback body should become a pattern (at least in some cases)
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  54. Ge0rG flow: it's been a pattern for twenty years
  55. Ge0rG most MUC implementations send a fallback body in direct invites.
  56. Ge0rG it's also mostly very ugly
  57. flow then it's not a widely known one and at least not specifies in xep249
  58. flow then it's not a widely known one and at least not specified in xep249
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  61. flow Ge0rG, sending a fallback body with xep249 direct muc invitations is ugly? care to elaborate?
  62. Ge0rG flow: feel free to PR, I guess
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  65. Ge0rG flow: no, the fallback body generated by MUC implementations is ugly
  66. Zash The direct invite included in the meditated invite is also fun
  67. Ge0rG flow: it would be great to have a small section in 0249 discussing that a) a fallback body MAY be added by the sender and that if it is added, it MUST NOT contain any information that's not in the <x/>, so that it is safe to ignore by compliant implementations
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  110. lovetox when do i want to send an directed invite instead of a mediated one?
  111. jonas’ lovetox, when your recipient filters messages from strangers
  112. lovetox i cant know that
  113. jonas’ (since the MUC is going to be a stranger)
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  115. jonas’ exactly
  116. jonas’ so the answer is "always, unless you have to go mediated because of ACLs"
  117. lovetox so it cant be factor in my decision
  118. lovetox but mediated invite adds automatically to member list
  119. jonas’ that’s what I meant
  120. jonas’ if you are in members-only and you are not an admin, you have to go mediated
  121. jonas’ if you are in members-only and you are an admin, you add them to the member list and send direct
  122. jonas’ otherwise, you send direct
  123. lovetox omg, way too complicated
  124. jonas’ yes
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  126. lovetox somebody should write some flowchart
  127. jonas’ I just did :)
  128. jonas’ in text form tho
  129. lovetox flowchart in text form i have to remember that :D
  130. flow lovetox, "way too compliacted" implies that there is a less complicated way. Please share that :)
  131. lovetox i dont see how one implys the other
  132. Zash 0401 ish flow for MUC?
  133. lovetox quantum physic is also way to complicated for me, that does not mean there is an easier way :)
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  135. jonas’ +------------------+ +-----------------+ +-------------------+ | | yes | | no | | | is members-only? +------->+ am admin? +------------->+ send mediated | | | | | | | +--------+---------+ +--------+--------+ +-------------------+ | | | |yes |no v | +--------+--------+ | | | | | add as member | | | | | +--------+--------+ | | | | | v | +--------+--------+ | | | +----------------->+ send directed | | | +-----------------+
  136. jonas’ https://paste.debian.net/hidden/727768a8/
  137. flow oh, now the nice flow chart is gone :(
  138. jonas’ flow, it was only nice if you have a mono-spaced font
  139. lovetox great thanks jonas’
  140. flow ahh true :)
  141. jonas’ lovetox, if you’re smart, you put this somewhere sane ;)
  142. jonas’ because that paste expires in 7d
  143. flow PR that in xep45, otherwise it will be gone forever in 7d?
  144. jonas’ flow, maybe rather in the XEP for invites?
  145. flow or that
  146. jonas’ https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0249.html
  147. flow jonas’, I wonder: was that hand crafted or did you use some tool?
  148. jonas’ asciiflow.com
  149. jonas’ http://asciiflow.com
  150. jonas’ flow, note that it has nothing to do with re-encoding you in ASCII, no worries.
  151. flow Yes, good, I like my DNA-based encoding
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  154. lovetox and how to deal with invites received through MAM?
  155. lovetox obviously i check if its already in my bookmarks, but what if not?
  156. lovetox check the date? and only show if its the near past?
  157. flow lovetox, sadly the MAM archive does not contain the information if the user decided to not follow the invitation
  158. Zash Joining every room I was ever invited to is a bit annoying, so don't do that maybe
  159. flow one could store rejected invitations with a timestamp in a private pep node
  160. lovetox yeah wondering how clients deal with that which implement auto join on invite
  161. Martin > check the date? and only show if its the near past? Can you create something like a bookmark withe 'do not join, declined' info?
  162. Martin > check the date? and only show if its the near past? Can you create something like a bookmark with 'do not join, declined' info?
  163. flow Martin, you can
  164. Martin Ah, what flow said.
  165. flow but someone has to implement it ;)
  166. jonas’ if only we had a mechanism where the server tracks inbound requests and ack/naks for those
  167. lovetox but i can decline a invite, why would it not be stored in mam?
  168. lovetox its a message
  169. flow there is not really a nack for rejected invitations?
  170. Zash ``` $ graph-easy --as=ascii <<. graph "test" { foo -> { bar boo } -> baz } . +-----+ +-----+ | boo | <-- | foo | +-----+ +-----+ | | | | | v | +-----+ | | bar | | +-----+ | | | | | v | +-----+ +-------> | baz | +-----+ ```
  171. jonas’ in groupchat 1.0, (mediated) invites could’ve been presence subscription requests which are indeed tracked by the server. Doesn’t solve it for the non-insane post-GC-1.0 world, nor for mediated invites, but it still crossed my mind.
  172. Zash Pretty sure there's a way to reject invites
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  177. Zash https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html#example-59
  178. flow Nice, so problem solves?
  179. flow Nice, so problem solved?
  180. jonas’ not for '249 though?
  181. Zash Could also keep bookmarks around for some with autojoin=false after you left
  182. Zash Maybe invent a bookmarks2 'trash' flag?
  183. flow can't xep239 simply re-use xep45 decline (even though it currently states to silently discard)
  184. flow can't xep249 simply re-use xep45 decline (even though it currently states to silently discard)
  185. Zash What if you accept, but later leave?
  186. flow Zash, dunno, using muc bookmarks for mucs you are not really interested in seems not right
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  189. Zash And then a fresh client syncs MAM, sees the invite and joins the room that you wanted nothing to do with anymore.
  190. flow meh
  191. Zash Needs more flowcharts!
  192. Ge0rG you *could* reject an invite, but why should you?
  193. Zash invited -> rejected -> ensure rejection is saved somewhere invited -> accepted -> bookmarked -> leave -> ???
  194. Ge0rG autojoin=1 -> yes, autojoin=0 -> keep in mind but don't join, autojoin=-1 -> blacklisted!
  195. Zash but it's a boolean
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  197. Ge0rG autojoin=0 -> keep in mind but don't join, autojoin=n -> blacklisted!
  198. Ge0rG won't prosody keep the actual textual representation in the store?
  199. Zash Other clients parsing and re-serializing it tho?
  200. Ge0rG Zash: who cares about other clients?
  201. Ge0rG oh wait, you can just block the room JID and manually compare direct invites to the blocklist
  202. Zash Heh, hacky but I suppose it would work
  203. Zash And it would prevent unknowing clients from joining
  204. Ge0rG lovetox: there is one more reason for direct invites: you might want to auto-join invites to private rooms from a contact, because insta-chats. And you can't ensure that a mediated invite really came from a contact and not from a malicious MUC
  205. flow Zash> And it would prevent unknowing clients from joining hopefully with a nice error message instead of a silent timeout
  206. flow i'm also not sure about the UX if the user afterwards decides that to join the room
  207. Zash Blocking command mandates an error iirc
  208. Zash Hm
  209. flow what would be the 'from' value of the iq error?
  210. Zash > If the user attempts to send an outbound stanza to the JID, the user's server MUST NOT route the stanza to the JID but instead MUST return a <not-acceptable/> error [...] https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0191.html#block https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0191.html#example-9
  211. Zash flow, /error/@by is what you mean
  212. Zash @to & @from are always swapped for replies
  213. flow ahh good then
  214. Zash Not sure we set that tho, better check
  215. Zash It's not in the example, so probably not :)
  216. Zash Heh, indeed
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  219. pep. > Zash> but it's a boolean or why one shouldn't represent booleans as integers :(
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  226. Ge0rG pep.: as we all know, the correct represntation for booleans is ["YES", "Norway"]
  227. pep. :D
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  523. jonas’ I’ll just leave this here: $ host omdathetkan.monshouwer.org omdathetkan.monshouwer.org is an alias for https://omdathetkan.monshouwer.org. https://omdathetkan.monshouwer.org has address 195.191.112.29 https://omdathetkan.monshouwer.org has IPv6 address 2a02:990:100:1:0:d05::
  524. jonas’ (re that discussion the other day about nameprep being not strict enough)
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  534. flow jonas’, hmm, I am not sure if (other) non-LDH labels should appear on the wire
  535. jonas’ non-LDH?
  536. flow ldh: letters digist hypen
  537. flow ldh: letters digits hypen
  538. flow ldh: letters digits hyphen
  539. flow it was my understanding that essentially only those are allowed in the wire protocol
  540. jonas’ what about _xmpp-server
  541. jonas’ there was a fun discussion in #powerdns on OFTC a few minutes back (after I asked if '&' (U+0026) is valid in DNS labels) and DNS isn’t actually strict about that
  542. flow those are underscore labels
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  545. flow dns is like 1000s of RFCs, so its kind of complicated
  546. flow plus registries are lax when it comes to compliance
  547. flow which kinda forces implementations to become a little bit lax too
  548. jonas’ compliance to what even
  549. flow the RFCs i'd assume
  550. flow hmm it was pretty sure the kind of labels which are allowed on the wire is specified somewhere
  551. lovetox has left
  552. jonas’ flow, maybe you meant: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1035 <label> ::= <letter> [ [ <ldh-str> ] <let-dig> ] <ldh-str> ::= <let-dig-hyp> | <let-dig-hyp> <ldh-str> <let-dig-hyp> ::= <let-dig> | "-" <let-dig> ::= <letter> | <digit> <letter> ::= any one of the 52 alphabetic characters A through Z in upper case and a through z in lower case <digit> ::= any one of the ten digits 0 through 9
  553. jonas’ but that seems to be generally understood more as "guideline" than as "rule" by the DNS community
  554. flow yes and no, that's one of the very first of DNS related RFCs
  555. flow there are many updates to this
  556. jonas’ idneed
  557. jonas’ indeed
  558. jonas’ but if the powerdns folks tell me that, I’m not going to argue ;)
  559. jonas’ I don’t want to be *that* person who tries to point at RFCs in a field they don’t know about in front of the folks implementing them all day ;)
  560. flow jonas’, they tell you it is valid?
  561. jonas’ yes
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  563. flow could very well be, as I said i'm not sure
  564. jonas’ I hear that there are not really restrictions
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  566. jonas’ there’s something for "hostnames", but that’s irrespective of DNS
  567. jonas’ as you can see, the https:// stuff passing right through
  568. jonas’ powerdns will reject & and ; with the SQL backend tho
  569. flow and '://' is not really the intersting part of the ASCII range
  570. jonas’ so no fun to be had with &quot;.domain.example and XML
  571. flow and '://' is not really the interesting part of the ASCII range
  572. Zash Ge0rG, you might enjoy `dig 🤖️.zash.se txt +noidnin`
  573. jonas’ I get NXDOMAIN
  574. jonas’ but that may be copy/paste issues
  575. Zash `dig txt bender.zash.se` but it gets escaped :(
  576. flow ahh, possible that https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2181#section-11 is still in effect
  577. flow which means binary fun
  578. flow still LDH label is what you usually want to see on the wire, and underscore labels of course
  579. flow https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5890#section-2.3.1 has a nice overview
  580. jonas’ "want" :>
  581. jonas’ again, I’m not going to dig into that now
  582. flow @ c query ("🤖.zash.se", org.minidns.record.Record.TYPE.TXT) java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: java.text.ParseException: An unassigned code point was found in the input 🤖
  583. Zash eheehehehhee
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  586. jonas’ bedtime
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  589. flow hmm, which is kinda strange, as the robot was added in unicode 8 and this is java 11 which should support unicode 10
  590. flow or do I have that shell switched to an older JRE…
  591. flow but bedtime sounds good :)
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