jdev - 2020-04-28


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  51. lovetox they dont need to be closed
  52. lovetox they are restarted
  53. marc0s ah, that was the concept, "restart" https://xmpp.org/rfcs/rfc6120.html#streams-negotiation-restart I was probably falling asleep already
  54. marc0s thanks 🙂
  55. lovetox but this is mentioned again under https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6120#section-5.4.3.3
  56. lovetox explicitly client MUST not send </close>
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  58. lovetox explicitly client MUST not send </stream>
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  115. Zash How do other servers behave is there's some database error when adding archiving a message? (context: MAM)
  116. flow Zash: should be configurable and default to retry-panic
  117. flow question is, what the 'ignore' behavior should be? send once message (per day?) to the user stating that his messages are not archived?
  118. Ge0rG send a message error?
  119. flow question is, what the 'ignore' behavior should be? send one message (per day?) to the user stating that his messages are not archived?
  120. Ge0rG panic = kill the server?
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  122. Zash I didn't ask what they should do. I asked what they *do*.
  123. flow good question if the message type should be error, but probably the answer is yes
  124. flow as long as there is a <body/>, and not just some error code that is often not shown to the user
  125. flow Zash, I know. But I expect some (most?) devs don't know, as error code paths are often not well tested
  126. flow or even not well known to the devs
  127. flow hmm another nice settings to have would probably be retry-notify-admin-ignore
  128. Zash I know what Prosody does as I've written a bunch of that code. No idea what ejabberd or Openfire or others do.
  129. flow Holger, any idea about ejabberd?
  130. flow Guus, any idea about openfire?
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  133. Guus Unsure. Probably silently ignore after writing the error to the logfile
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  135. Holger So it's about a DB error on writing the MAM message? Then it's the same for ejabberd.
  136. Zash And Prosody too, ignore and carry on trying to deliver the message.
  137. Zash and write something to the error log
  138. flow Holger, DB error is the DB returning an error and/or the DB connection lost?
  139. Holger Both (if re-establishing the connection fails).
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  141. lovetox i find it weird that you want to inform a user if something database wise happens on the server
  142. lovetox why not send a message to the admin?
  143. lovetox User cant do anything about it, but informing the administrator
  144. flow well the users UX is degraded, doesn't strike me as the badest idea to inform him
  145. flow well the user's experience is degraded, doesn't strike me as the badest idea to inform him
  146. flow so that at least he knows that there is a reason his other clients do not show the same messages as he is used too
  147. lovetox A Adminstrator can also inform the users?
  148. flow note that I am talking about MAM archival not working, for whatever reason
  149. lovetox is this not his job if the service is degraded?
  150. flow lovetox, sure, that is why is also considered retry-notify-admin-ignore as setting
  151. Holger I would not send messages to users they can do nothing about other than notifying the admin.
  152. flow often database errors are simply returned to the requesting entity. for example, think if pubsub publish: if the item could not be persistet, then a service would probably return an IQ error
  153. Holger I think the options are "just notify the admin" vs. "bounce the message with an error".
  154. flow Holger, bounce the message to whom?
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  156. Holger The sender.
  157. flow but the message stil gets delivered?
  158. flow why should the sender care that the recipients MAM archive does not work?
  159. Zash I think this all depends on whether you want to have a store-and-forward system or not.
  160. jonas’ bouncing an error to the sender if the message got delivered is going to be confusing
  161. Holger flow, well the question is whether MAM is considered critical or not.
  162. jonas’ although, an excellent use-case of @type='continue'
  163. Zash I've assumed that delivery is the priority.
  164. jonas’ but still, the sender can use that info even less
  165. pep. also careful with notifying the admin on a busy server. don't do that for every message :p
  166. flow Zash, the alternative to store-and-forward is potentially-store-and-forward?
  167. flow If so, I lean towards potentially-store-and-forward
  168. lovetox for all server errors, inform admin, admin can decide if he informs his users
  169. jonas’ elitistly, I may say: logging as error should be enough. You should have monitoring which picks up on that.
  170. Holger jonas’, if a message is not delivered the sender does need an error message to be aware of the issue.
  171. jonas’ but all those log monitoring stacks are insane
  172. jonas’ Holger, 100% agree
  173. jonas’ I’m reading backlog and replying ;)
  174. flow jonas’, true, but it's kinda right there to have your xmpp server notify the admin about issues ;)
  175. Zash Users (other devices) do get a hint that messages aren't stored, at least Prosody only adds the stanza-id if it successfully archived the message, which shows up in carbons.
  176. jonas’ flow, sure
  177. jonas’ mod_error_to_message which hooks into logging and rate-limitedly forwards error log messages to the admin?
  178. jonas’ ideally rate-limited by type
  179. jonas’ ideally rate-limited by message template
  180. jonas’ "error: %s (and %d more instances)" | format("foo %s bar %d baz" | format(original_logging_arguments...), number_of_logentries_in_ratelimit_bucket)
  181. flow I see why service with thousands of users do not like the users to be automatically notified about a MAM outage, but I could imagine I would run my personal family service with such a setting enabled
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  183. flow I see why a service with thousands of users may not be keen on users to be automatically notified about a MAM outage, but I could imagine I would run my personal family service with such a setting enabled
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  186. jonas’ do servers still assign a stanza-id on inbound messages if archiving fails?
  187. jonas’ if not, a client could detect that passively and display an inline warning about that
  188. flow i'd assume that you can not assign an archive ID if your archive is unavaible
  189. jonas’ it’s perfectly possible
  190. flow well unless you do the ejabberd thingy
  191. jonas’ if you uuidgen all your IDs, you can do that before storing and only later realize that you did it
  192. jonas’ I think '313 should specifically forbid that; it’ll cause pain once the archive service is restored
  193. flow it is still kind of odd that you assign an archive ID without being sure that this message will ever hit the archive
  194. Holger flow: But you're just adding a `<stanza-id/>` which you may well want to do independently of MAM, no?
  195. Holger flow: Didn't the XEP-0359 author consciously make this an independent XEP?
  196. jonas’ uff, but then you’re in fun trouble
  197. jonas’ because a client may have to do a full archive download because MAM will tell it that it doesn’t know that ID
  198. Zash maybe set the hostname as issuer of the id instead of the account?
  199. Holger ejabberd doesn't add a `<stanza-id/>` if the message wasn't archived, but I would've thought doing so would be perfectly fine. And I considered doing so in the past as some client dev(s) had some non-MAM related use case.
  200. flow Holger, true, but in this case the 'by' attribute of <stanza-id/> is typically known to be an address of an archive too
  201. jonas’ cc @ MattJ
  202. flow but yes, there is nothing in xep359 which would prevent you from adding a stanza-id even if the archive is currentlyd own
  203. flow and I would not want it any other way
  204. Holger If that's not fine I don't see why 0359 would be a separate XEP at all. Given that 0313 hard-depends on it.
  205. jonas’ Holger, there are other use-cases for stanza-id besides MAM, aren’t there?
  206. Holger So if clients need to know whether a message was archived we need a separate flag besides the <stanza-id/>.
  207. flow yeah, there is also the possibility that an alternative to MAM emerges that could also re-use xep359
  208. flow Holger, or, maybe better, a flat that the message was not archived
  209. flow Holger, or, maybe better, a flag that the message was not archived
  210. Holger Or both.
  211. flow is there an advantage in having both? seems unnecessary to me, compared to simply flag the unexpected/unusual case
  212. jonas’ flow, both allows a client to passively detect the support for setting the flags on the server
  213. flow i mean, we could have a stream feature that this "i-will-archive-messages-unless-flaged"
  214. jonas’ no flag present -> no support; one flag present -> support && clear statement; both flags present -> ????
  215. Holger The client can't deduce a message was archived from the absence of a wasn't-archived flag, no? Except we add another feature.
  216. Holger That.
  217. flow i mean, we could have a stream feature that says "i-will-archive-messages-unless-flaged"
  218. Holger Yes that would work as well.
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  224. MattJ History: XEP-0313 originally had <archived id='...'/> and that certainly conveyed meaning that we have lost with the current protocol
  225. MattJ I have considered bringing it back (we really have to make the decision now)
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  229. Kev I can't commit any brainpower to this today, but if the question is "do clients need to be told that a stanza was archived, and by whom", I think the answer is 'yes'.
  230. Zash What about the inverse?
  231. MattJ What's the inverse?
  232. Zash Do clients need to be told about failure to archive?
  233. Zash Kev, what does M-Link do if archiving fails?
  234. MattJ Part of the reason I was hesitant, is because with the IM-NG approach, I'm not sure there is much need for the additional signalling
  235. jonas’ MattJ, signalling is useful in case of errors
  236. jonas’ like the other day on yaxim
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  239. MattJ It's questionable what should happen in that case
  240. jonas’ if a client knows that a stanza was, contrary to expectations, not archived, then you can avoid querying that stanza-id on next connect, leading to fun issues
  241. MattJ Should the stanza even be delivered? :)
  242. Ge0rG Great, let's re-add `<archived id='...'/>` into MAM and kill 0359.
  243. jonas’ that’s a good question and should probably be configurable, but orthogonal, I think.
  244. MattJ Pre-MAM, failure to store an offline message would generate an error bounce
  245. jonas’ if you ask me, the server should assign IDs and queue messages for archival and try it’s best to do it later
  246. MattJ MAM is basically per-device offline, and what we're saying is that partial delivery (i.e. only to currently online devices) counts as delivery, so it's ok
  247. Ge0rG what if the message was delivered to one of three clients, stored in offline store, but not MAM-archived?
  248. jonas’ while havnig the message delivered with a flag indicating that it may not have been archived
  249. jonas’ but that’s expensive to do, resource wise
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  251. Ge0rG jonas’: your suggestion would lead to an OOM crash with all the messages getting lost eventually
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  256. Zash What if you can't archive the archiving failure notification?!!??!!!!?‽!!?
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  259. Ge0rG Zash: what if you generate an archiving failure notification for each archiving failure notification?
  260. Zash 🤯️
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