jdev - 2020-04-29

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  219. lovetox what is the most recognizeable IRC icon?
  220. lovetox the hashtag?
  221. lovetox or is there something else im missing
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  223. flow mirc :)
  224. pep. :x
  225. pep. I'd say hashtag, even though some clients use that as a keyword for channels (public groupchats). Probably because of IRC yes
  226. pep. (dino, conversations)
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  230. lovetox so what do they use for a IRC channel?
  231. lovetox i would want to differentiate between a IRC Channel and a XMPP MUC
  232. Holger How do you do that? biboumi(?) somehow flags them as IRC channels?
  233. Zash There's some disco thing for it, no?
  234. Ge0rG in the registry!
  235. Zash https://xmpp.org/registrar/disco-categories.html#conference 'irc'
  236. lovetox yeah disco identity is a thing
  237. lovetox i can even differentiate between a phone client and desktop client :D
  238. MattJ Yes, I wish more clients used this info :(
  239. MattJ "Sorry I'm slow, I'm typing on mobile" would not need to be stated every time
  240. MattJ and people on desktops would have no excuse for typos! We can fnially hold them to higher standards!
  241. Ge0rG MattJ: overlay the avatar in the typing notification with a device icon?
  242. lovetox Gajim has that feature :)
  243. lovetox i think jonas’ requested it once
  244. Holger Anyway, at least in Dino and Conversations, I don't see any difference for IRC channels vs. MUC rooms. (Why would I want to, BTW?)
  245. Zash Number of features would work as if nobody supported them
  246. Zash LMC etc
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  249. lovetox Holger, because they are in many ways different
  250. Zash There are also funky things with nicknames
  251. Holger kk
  252. lovetox but its a good point, actually i should disable many things in the client depending on the transport
  253. lovetox LMC / Nick change / Encryption make not much sense in a IRC channel
  254. moparisthebest LMC works with the fallback I guess, why not nick change?
  255. lovetox moparisthebest, users use LMC because they think other see it as they see it
  256. lovetox it does not make much sense to send a 20 word sentence again and change one letter
  257. lovetox there are shorter methods to do that
  258. moparisthebest it's super annoying in MUCs when your client doesn't support it too (like dino)
  259. lovetox exactly
  260. Zash Dino supports LMC now tho :)
  261. lovetox so i want to tell the user, there is no correction, so think about what you send
  262. moparisthebest you don't disable it when non-LMC xmpp clients are in there, how is an IRC client different :)
  263. Link Mauve moparisthebest, XMPP clients can implement it (and should), IRC clients not so much.
  264. lovetox moparisthebest, in XMPP every user can choose a different nick per MUC
  265. lovetox in IRC you have on nick per Server
  266. lovetox in IRC you have one nick per Server
  267. moparisthebest right but that's up to the transport to manage, I still might want to change my nick
  268. lovetox so to offer a nick change in a IRC MUC for an XMPP user gives him the wrong idea
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  270. lovetox im not saying i disallow nick changes on irc bridges, but i think there is a better place for it
  271. moparisthebest I can change my nick in biboumi in channels I think... it's been awhile since I have
  272. Zash You can, but it changes everywhere.
  273. Zash Which is ... fun.
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  275. moparisthebest yep
  276. pep. yep and then you also get a message from the server telling your to do the nickserv dance to identity again etc. etc.., and some clients will change the nick in every single bookmark and next time you try to reconnect it's.. ugh
  277. pep. yep and then you also get a message from the server telling your to do the nickserv dance to identify again etc. etc.., and some clients will change the nick in every single bookmark and next time you try to reconnect it's.. ugh
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  279. Zash And some clients update the bookmark, some other clients fiddle with it, weird stuff happens.
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  281. Zash If you're lucky all clients eventually agree on the same nickname
  282. pep. To me the most annoying is NickServ nonetheless
  283. pep. That authentication is not handled by the transport itself (if it's even possible)
  284. Zash Can't remember touching NickServ since I set up Biboumi
  285. Zash Pretty sure it handles it for me
  286. pep. Because you don't change nicknames? :p
  287. lovetox pep. you can
  288. lovetox with adhoc command you can configure the irc server to execute the auth script on connect
  289. pep. lovetox, you can with sasl that very few IRC servers support
  290. pep. lovetox, sure
  291. pep. For clients that even do ad-hoc
  292. Zash Usually I end up with "zash" or "Zash"
  293. pep. lovetox, and you still need to register once
  294. lovetox of course, but you have also to register with xmpp
  295. lovetox so..
  296. pep. yeah but not on every single server, and why are they all different and why do I need to log in on XMPP and then on IRC etc.. lots of things that users shouldn't have to worry about :)
  297. lovetox yeah but i guess people who use irc can manage
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  300. pep. Somebody has experience with Matrix / IRC briding?
  301. pep. Is it this painful?
  302. Zash Only seen it from the IRC (actually XMPP) side
  303. pep. Yeah, not the best side to see it from
  304. pep. They don't give a damn about the rest
  305. lovetox or another point, it does not make sense to display presence show value in a IRC
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  330. pep. What's a use-case for normal type messages?
  331. pep. Are they used in IM at all
  332. Zash 🤷️
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  334. Ge0rG pep.: for 0184 ;)
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  337. pep. Ge0rG, can you detail?
  338. pep. to avoid ending up in MAM or something?
  339. Zash MAM result containers are type=normal I tihnk
  340. Ge0rG Zash: not headline?
  341. Ge0rG pep.: the authors of 0184 forgot to make it type=chat so it implicitly became type=normal, causing all sorts of trouble
  342. pep. Would a client send @type=normal on purpose? Or an action from a user that would require @type=normal or something
  343. Zash Gajim and Psi ha[sd] email-looking ways of sending type=normal
  344. pep. Right
  345. Zash Ge0rG, https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0313.xml ^F headline only one match in a section about what one might save in the archive
  346. pep. Would a new XEP nowadays use normal for anything? In the IM use-case. What would be an appropriate use of @type=normal?
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  348. pep. (and outside of IM)
  349. Zash @type=chat is the new normal!
  350. pep. pubsub is headline right
  351. Zash yee.... actually you can choose
  352. Ge0rG So MAM messages could end up in MAM, right? ;)
  353. Zash Ge0rG, and in Carbons!
  354. Ge0rG Yes!
  355. Zash IIRC it already happened
  356. pulkomandy has left
  357. Ge0rG Sigh. Another hour well spent on... https://stackoverflow.com/a/16710246/539443
  358. pep. Would be great to have some informational XEP on the different types in use and what they're actually for (contrary to what the RFCs say if it's different)
  359. pep. As some kind of errata for later
  360. Ge0rG Whoops, that was the wrong channel. Sorry.
  361. Ge0rG pep.: I had an overview in my whats-wrong-in-xmpp presentation
  362. pep. yeah I remember
  363. Ge0rG pep.: https://op-co.de/tmp/whats-wrong-with-xmpp-2017.pdf pages 7 + 8
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  365. moparisthebest but it's 2020 so that's all fixed by now, right?
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  383. pulkomandy Jabber4BeOS (now Renga) used to handle normal as "icq style" messages, each message would popup a new window. But that was 20 years ago and there already was an option to handle them like chat with a more usual instant messaging style
  384. lovetox i think some MUC invite uses type=normal
  385. lovetox was it direct or mediated
  386. lovetox i dont know anymore
  387. lovetox it was mediated
  388. Ge0rG lovetox: probably an oversight in the XEP
  389. lovetox no
  390. lovetox it says MUST be type normal
  391. lovetox that does not sound like a oopsi
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  393. lovetox what else would it be?
  394. lovetox type chat from a muc?
  395. Ge0rG yeah.
  396. Ge0rG nothing wrong with that ;)
  397. lovetox hm someone thought its wrong, so wrong that he added a MUST
  398. lovetox :D
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  400. Ge0rG Author: Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@jabber.org> Date: Mon Apr 30 16:22:14 2007 +0000 invitation tweak per list discussion
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  402. Ge0rG it was "the message MUST NOT possess a 'type' attribute" before
  403. lovetox which is implicit normal
  404. Ge0rG https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2007-April/015052.html
  405. Ge0rG and the other wording was there from the beginning of the SVN repo.
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  408. Ge0rG lovetox: still, I think it's an oversight of sorts. type=chat would be more fitting
  409. Ge0rG And to be honest, I'd like to make a table with all the IM-related XEPs and their message types
  410. Ge0rG because that affects 0280, 0313 and 0352
  411. Ge0rG and I want to clean up the rules
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  414. Zash Ge0rG, invites of type=chat?
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  441. qtet hello everyone
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  443. MattJ Hi
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