jdev - 2020-04-29

what is the most recognizeable IRC icon?

the hashtag?

or is there something else im missing

mirc :)

:x

I'd say hashtag, even though some clients use that as a keyword for channels (public groupchats). Probably because of IRC yes

(dino, conversations)

so what do they use for a IRC channel?

i would want to differentiate between a IRC Channel and a XMPP MUC

How do you do that? biboumi(?) somehow flags them as IRC channels?

There's some disco thing for it, no?

in the registry!

https://xmpp.org/registrar/disco-categories.html#conference 'irc'

yeah disco identity is a thing

i can even differentiate between a phone client and desktop client :D

Yes, I wish more clients used this info :(

"Sorry I'm slow, I'm typing on mobile" would not need to be stated every time

and people on desktops would have no excuse for typos! We can fnially hold them to higher standards!

MattJ: overlay the avatar in the typing notification with a device icon?

Gajim has that feature :)

i think jonas’ requested it once

Anyway, at least in Dino and Conversations, I don't see any difference for IRC channels vs. MUC rooms. (Why would I want to, BTW?)

Number of features would work as if nobody supported them

LMC etc

Holger, because they are in many ways different

There are also funky things with nicknames

kk

but its a good point, actually i should disable many things in the client depending on the transport

LMC / Nick change / Encryption make not much sense in a IRC channel

LMC works with the fallback I guess, why not nick change?

moparisthebest, users use LMC because they think other see it as they see it

it does not make much sense to send a 20 word sentence again and change one letter

there are shorter methods to do that

it's super annoying in MUCs when your client doesn't support it too (like dino)

exactly

Dino supports LMC now tho :)

so i want to tell the user, there is no correction, so think about what you send

you don't disable it when non-LMC xmpp clients are in there, how is an IRC client different :)

moparisthebest, XMPP clients can implement it (and should), IRC clients not so much.

moparisthebest, in XMPP every user can choose a different nick per MUC

in IRC you have one nick per Server ✏

right but that's up to the transport to manage, I still might want to change my nick

so to offer a nick change in a IRC MUC for an XMPP user gives him the wrong idea

im not saying i disallow nick changes on irc bridges, but i think there is a better place for it

I can change my nick in biboumi in channels I think... it's been awhile since I have

You can, but it changes everywhere.

Which is ... fun.

yep

yep and then you also get a message from the server telling your to do the nickserv dance to identify again etc. etc.., and some clients will change the nick in every single bookmark and next time you try to reconnect it's.. ugh ✏

And some clients update the bookmark, some other clients fiddle with it, weird stuff happens.

If you're lucky all clients eventually agree on the same nickname

To me the most annoying is NickServ nonetheless

That authentication is not handled by the transport itself (if it's even possible)

Can't remember touching NickServ since I set up Biboumi

Pretty sure it handles it for me

Because you don't change nicknames? :p

pep. you can

with adhoc command you can configure the irc server to execute the auth script on connect

lovetox, you can with sasl that very few IRC servers support

lovetox, sure

For clients that even do ad-hoc

Usually I end up with "zash" or "Zash"

lovetox, and you still need to register once

of course, but you have also to register with xmpp

so..

yeah but not on every single server, and why are they all different and why do I need to log in on XMPP and then on IRC etc.. lots of things that users shouldn't have to worry about :)

yeah but i guess people who use irc can manage

Somebody has experience with Matrix / IRC briding?

Is it this painful?

Only seen it from the IRC (actually XMPP) side

Yeah, not the best side to see it from

They don't give a damn about the rest

or another point, it does not make sense to display presence show value in a IRC

What's a use-case for normal type messages?

Are they used in IM at all

🤷️

pep.: for 0184 ;)

Ge0rG, can you detail?

to avoid ending up in MAM or something?

MAM result containers are type=normal I tihnk

Zash: not headline?

pep.: the authors of 0184 forgot to make it type=chat so it implicitly became type=normal, causing all sorts of trouble

Would a client send @type=normal on purpose? Or an action from a user that would require @type=normal or something

Gajim and Psi ha[sd] email-looking ways of sending type=normal

Right

Ge0rG, https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0313.xml ^F headline only one match in a section about what one might save in the archive

Would a new XEP nowadays use normal for anything? In the IM use-case. What would be an appropriate use of @type=normal?

(and outside of IM)

@type=chat is the new normal!

pubsub is headline right

yee.... actually you can choose

So MAM messages could end up in MAM, right? ;)

Ge0rG, and in Carbons!

Yes!

IIRC it already happened

Sigh. Another hour well spent on... https://stackoverflow.com/a/16710246/539443

Would be great to have some informational XEP on the different types in use and what they're actually for (contrary to what the RFCs say if it's different)

As some kind of errata for later

Whoops, that was the wrong channel. Sorry.

pep.: I had an overview in my whats-wrong-in-xmpp presentation

yeah I remember

pep.: https://op-co.de/tmp/whats-wrong-with-xmpp-2017.pdf pages 7 + 8

but it's 2020 so that's all fixed by now, right?

Jabber4BeOS (now Renga) used to handle normal as "icq style" messages, each message would popup a new window. But that was 20 years ago and there already was an option to handle them like chat with a more usual instant messaging style

i think some MUC invite uses type=normal

was it direct or mediated

i dont know anymore

it was mediated

lovetox: probably an oversight in the XEP

no

it says MUST be type normal

that does not sound like a oopsi

what else would it be?

type chat from a muc?

yeah.

nothing wrong with that ;)

hm someone thought its wrong, so wrong that he added a MUST

:D

Author: Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@jabber.org> Date: Mon Apr 30 16:22:14 2007 +0000 invitation tweak per list discussion

it was "the message MUST NOT possess a 'type' attribute" before

which is implicit normal

https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2007-April/015052.html

and the other wording was there from the beginning of the SVN repo.

lovetox: still, I think it's an oversight of sorts. type=chat would be more fitting

And to be honest, I'd like to make a table with all the IM-related XEPs and their message types

because that affects 0280, 0313 and 0352

and I want to clean up the rules

Ge0rG, invites of type=chat?

hello everyone

Hi