jdev - 2020-04-29

  1. lovetox

    what is the most recognizeable IRC icon?

  2. lovetox

    the hashtag?

  3. lovetox

    or is there something else im missing

  4. flow

    mirc :)

  5. pep.


  6. pep.

    I'd say hashtag, even though some clients use that as a keyword for channels (public groupchats). Probably because of IRC yes

  7. pep.

    (dino, conversations)

  8. lovetox

    so what do they use for a IRC channel?

  9. lovetox

    i would want to differentiate between a IRC Channel and a XMPP MUC

  10. Holger

    How do you do that? biboumi(?) somehow flags them as IRC channels?

  11. Zash

    There's some disco thing for it, no?

  12. Ge0rG

    in the registry!

  13. Zash

    https://xmpp.org/registrar/disco-categories.html#conference 'irc'

  14. lovetox

    yeah disco identity is a thing

  15. lovetox

    i can even differentiate between a phone client and desktop client :D

  16. MattJ

    Yes, I wish more clients used this info :(

  17. MattJ

    "Sorry I'm slow, I'm typing on mobile" would not need to be stated every time

  18. MattJ

    and people on desktops would have no excuse for typos! We can fnially hold them to higher standards!

  19. Ge0rG

    MattJ: overlay the avatar in the typing notification with a device icon?

  20. lovetox

    Gajim has that feature :)

  21. lovetox

    i think jonas’ requested it once

  22. Holger

    Anyway, at least in Dino and Conversations, I don't see any difference for IRC channels vs. MUC rooms. (Why would I want to, BTW?)

  23. Zash

    Number of features would work as if nobody supported them

  24. Zash

    LMC etc

  25. lovetox

    Holger, because they are in many ways different

  26. Zash

    There are also funky things with nicknames

  27. Holger


  28. lovetox

    but its a good point, actually i should disable many things in the client depending on the transport

  29. lovetox

    LMC / Nick change / Encryption make not much sense in a IRC channel

  30. moparisthebest

    LMC works with the fallback I guess, why not nick change?

  31. lovetox

    moparisthebest, users use LMC because they think other see it as they see it

  32. lovetox

    it does not make much sense to send a 20 word sentence again and change one letter

  33. lovetox

    there are shorter methods to do that

  34. moparisthebest

    it's super annoying in MUCs when your client doesn't support it too (like dino)

  35. lovetox


  36. Zash

    Dino supports LMC now tho :)

  37. lovetox

    so i want to tell the user, there is no correction, so think about what you send

  38. moparisthebest

    you don't disable it when non-LMC xmpp clients are in there, how is an IRC client different :)

  39. Link Mauve

    moparisthebest, XMPP clients can implement it (and should), IRC clients not so much.

  40. lovetox

    moparisthebest, in XMPP every user can choose a different nick per MUC

  41. lovetox

    in IRC you have on nick per Server

  42. lovetox

    in IRC you have one nick per Server

  43. moparisthebest

    right but that's up to the transport to manage, I still might want to change my nick

  44. lovetox

    so to offer a nick change in a IRC MUC for an XMPP user gives him the wrong idea

  45. lovetox

    im not saying i disallow nick changes on irc bridges, but i think there is a better place for it

  46. moparisthebest

    I can change my nick in biboumi in channels I think... it's been awhile since I have

  47. Zash

    You can, but it changes everywhere.

  48. Zash

    Which is ... fun.

  49. moparisthebest


  50. pep.

    yep and then you also get a message from the server telling your to do the nickserv dance to identity again etc. etc.., and some clients will change the nick in every single bookmark and next time you try to reconnect it's.. ugh

  51. pep.

    yep and then you also get a message from the server telling your to do the nickserv dance to identify again etc. etc.., and some clients will change the nick in every single bookmark and next time you try to reconnect it's.. ugh

  52. Zash

    And some clients update the bookmark, some other clients fiddle with it, weird stuff happens.

  53. Zash

    If you're lucky all clients eventually agree on the same nickname

  54. pep.

    To me the most annoying is NickServ nonetheless

  55. pep.

    That authentication is not handled by the transport itself (if it's even possible)

  56. Zash

    Can't remember touching NickServ since I set up Biboumi

  57. Zash

    Pretty sure it handles it for me

  58. pep.

    Because you don't change nicknames? :p

  59. lovetox

    pep. you can

  60. lovetox

    with adhoc command you can configure the irc server to execute the auth script on connect

  61. pep.

    lovetox, you can with sasl that very few IRC servers support

  62. pep.

    lovetox, sure

  63. pep.

    For clients that even do ad-hoc

  64. Zash

    Usually I end up with "zash" or "Zash"

  65. pep.

    lovetox, and you still need to register once

  66. lovetox

    of course, but you have also to register with xmpp

  67. lovetox


  68. pep.

    yeah but not on every single server, and why are they all different and why do I need to log in on XMPP and then on IRC etc.. lots of things that users shouldn't have to worry about :)

  69. lovetox

    yeah but i guess people who use irc can manage

  70. pep.

    Somebody has experience with Matrix / IRC briding?

  71. pep.

    Is it this painful?

  72. Zash

    Only seen it from the IRC (actually XMPP) side

  73. pep.

    Yeah, not the best side to see it from

  74. pep.

    They don't give a damn about the rest

  75. lovetox

    or another point, it does not make sense to display presence show value in a IRC

  76. pep.

    What's a use-case for normal type messages?

  77. pep.

    Are they used in IM at all

  78. Zash


  79. Ge0rG

    pep.: for 0184 ;)

  80. pep.

    Ge0rG, can you detail?

  81. pep.

    to avoid ending up in MAM or something?

  82. Zash

    MAM result containers are type=normal I tihnk

  83. Ge0rG

    Zash: not headline?

  84. Ge0rG

    pep.: the authors of 0184 forgot to make it type=chat so it implicitly became type=normal, causing all sorts of trouble

  85. pep.

    Would a client send @type=normal on purpose? Or an action from a user that would require @type=normal or something

  86. Zash

    Gajim and Psi ha[sd] email-looking ways of sending type=normal

  87. pep.


  88. Zash

    Ge0rG, https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0313.xml ^F headline only one match in a section about what one might save in the archive

  89. pep.

    Would a new XEP nowadays use normal for anything? In the IM use-case. What would be an appropriate use of @type=normal?

  90. pep.

    (and outside of IM)

  91. Zash

    @type=chat is the new normal!

  92. pep.

    pubsub is headline right

  93. Zash

    yee.... actually you can choose

  94. Ge0rG

    So MAM messages could end up in MAM, right? ;)

  95. Zash

    Ge0rG, and in Carbons!

  96. Ge0rG


  97. Zash

    IIRC it already happened

  98. Ge0rG

    Sigh. Another hour well spent on... https://stackoverflow.com/a/16710246/539443

  99. pep.

    Would be great to have some informational XEP on the different types in use and what they're actually for (contrary to what the RFCs say if it's different)

  100. pep.

    As some kind of errata for later

  101. Ge0rG

    Whoops, that was the wrong channel. Sorry.

  102. Ge0rG

    pep.: I had an overview in my whats-wrong-in-xmpp presentation

  103. pep.

    yeah I remember

  104. Ge0rG

    pep.: https://op-co.de/tmp/whats-wrong-with-xmpp-2017.pdf pages 7 + 8

  105. moparisthebest

    but it's 2020 so that's all fixed by now, right?

  106. pulkomandy

    Jabber4BeOS (now Renga) used to handle normal as "icq style" messages, each message would popup a new window. But that was 20 years ago and there already was an option to handle them like chat with a more usual instant messaging style

  107. lovetox

    i think some MUC invite uses type=normal

  108. lovetox

    was it direct or mediated

  109. lovetox

    i dont know anymore

  110. lovetox

    it was mediated

  111. Ge0rG

    lovetox: probably an oversight in the XEP

  112. lovetox


  113. lovetox

    it says MUST be type normal

  114. lovetox

    that does not sound like a oopsi

  115. lovetox

    what else would it be?

  116. lovetox

    type chat from a muc?

  117. Ge0rG


  118. Ge0rG

    nothing wrong with that ;)

  119. lovetox

    hm someone thought its wrong, so wrong that he added a MUST

  120. lovetox


  121. Ge0rG

    Author: Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@jabber.org> Date: Mon Apr 30 16:22:14 2007 +0000 invitation tweak per list discussion

  122. Ge0rG

    it was "the message MUST NOT possess a 'type' attribute" before

  123. lovetox

    which is implicit normal

  124. Ge0rG


  125. Ge0rG

    and the other wording was there from the beginning of the SVN repo.

  126. Ge0rG

    lovetox: still, I think it's an oversight of sorts. type=chat would be more fitting

  127. Ge0rG

    And to be honest, I'd like to make a table with all the IM-related XEPs and their message types

  128. Ge0rG

    because that affects 0280, 0313 and 0352

  129. Ge0rG

    and I want to clean up the rules

  130. Zash

    Ge0rG, invites of type=chat?

  131. qtet

    hello everyone

  132. MattJ