Sam WhitedMost servers I've looked at have separate configuration for S2S ports and C2S ports. Is there any reason other than legacy to actually use another port though? I can't think what bad thing would happen if you just listened for all connections on all ports that you listen on
ZashYou might want to apply different firewall policies to c2s / s2s
Sam WhitedThat's fair, or present different TLS certs or something. Maybe it's just to make ops' job easier
KevYou may well want to prioritise different sockets differently in your eventloop or whatever, too.
moparisthebestSam Whited, xep-0368 supports that just fine also with different alpn strings
KevI think having a single port for both C2S and S2S is one of those things that's entirely possible, but doesn't buy a lot and there are edge reasons not to.
ZashYou can if you want.
Sam WhitedYah, that all makes sense, I was thinking XMPP level stuff but it makes sense that existing tools that don't know or care about the application level protocol would operate on ports so you'd want to keep them separate
Sam WhitedThanks all
ZashEmail also has different ports for c2s (submission(s), imap(s) etc) and s2s (smtp)
moparisthebestright but if it was designed nowadays it'd just use https over 443
KevOh, does JMAP do federation over JMAP too? I had in my head it was the client-facing side only for some reason.
Sam WhitedI don't know much about the JMAP protocol but SMTP needs to die in a fire and Fastmail got a *lot* faster and had less weird edge cases when they switched to JMAP. Could be an implementation thing and not an actual protocol thing, of course, but geeze SMTP needs an update.
ZashThis seems to me like arguing that XMPP s2s needs to die beacuse XMPP c2s over websockets is better than BOSH?
Sam WhitedI don't follow the analogy. SMTP just doesn't work very well when you have more than one device, JMAP seems to work very well.
ZashThat was the point
Sam WhitedI'm not sure that the transport matters?
ZashI don't see how SMTP has anything to do with IMAP/JMAP
Sam WhitedOh sorry, I said SMTP and meant IMAP.
Sam WhitedAlthough SMTP needs to die in a fire too, but I'm not sure if JMAP replaces that too or not.
KevMy (limited) understanding was that JMAP did both the C2S protocols (SMTP/IMAP) but not the S2S protocol (SMTP).
KevI could be wrong.
Sam WhitedYah, the intro to the RFC suggests it's just client-to-server
KevJMAP-for-XMPP would be interesting.
ZashLess confusing to refer to c2s-SMTP as submission (587 or tls on 465)
Kev(Rather, something for XMPP as JMAP is for IMAP/SMTP Submission)
KevI don't think that's quite Matrix.
MartinSam Whited: I guess you'd be in the mood for Amon Amarth - Death In Fire today. 😂
ZashKev, so what properties are you after? Batched operations and magic?
moparisthebestwait does JMAP replace SMTP too? I thought it just replaced IMAP
Sam WhitedMartin: I'm not normally a death metal kind of guy, but if they sang about killing SMTP/IMAP I'd totally listen to that :)
Sam Whitedmoparisthebest: it sounds like it replaces the C2S side of SMTP, but not the S2S side
KevZash: I said 'interesting', rather than that I was actually after something.
ZashNo idea what "JMAP for XMPP" would be then.
MartinSam Whited: Unfortunately Viking lyrics, no it problems in those golden times. 😃
Sam WhitedJMAP is effectively just a generic syncronization protocol with nice routing rules, so maybe the whole discussion about rewriting carbons for the millionth time will effectively be JMAP-over-XMPP just without their wire format
jonas’Daniel should be able to comment on that
jonas’given that he’s building a JMAP client as a side project
pulkomandyI think one problem with IMAP is arbitrary limitations in servers, and clients just adjusting to that because who are you to ask google or microsoft to configure their servers properly?
Sam Whitedoh neat, didn't know that, I'd be curious to hear if he likes the protocol or not. I don't know any real specifics about it
ZashI've heard nothing but praise of JMAP from email related folks
pulkomandyAt least I remember last time I tried to use the Haiku mail client I ended up having to tweak a lot of things in Dovecot to have it working
moparisthebestZash, like "you can stop using this cheese grater on your leg, instead use this wire brush, it's slightly less painful" "OH YES THIS IS THE BEST THING EVER!!!!!'
jonas’moparisthebest, don’t kinkshame
Sam Whitedmoparisthebest: what is wrong with it that's slighly less bad? So far I've mostly heard good things too (but like I said, I haven't implemented it)
moparisthebestemail folks like pain, I didn't say there was anything wrong with it :P
ZashThe model is interesting.
ZashBut ugh, why must everything be JSON and HTTP?
Sam WhitedBecause it's widely understood and seems to work well enough. Better than inventing yet another custom transport anyways
moparisthebestdon't forget DNS, half of email is in DNS now
moparisthebestdkim, spf, dmarc, and that new one I forget the name of
Zash> yet another custom transport
*ahem* HTTP/1.1, HTTP/2, HTTP/3
Zashmoparisthebest, myeah, that's kinda gone too far IMO
Sam Whitedoh geeze, dkim/spf are *really* bad. Those should probably be moved to http / .well-known or whatever. You use like 3 third party services that require SPF records and you run up against the 10 request limit in DNS *really* fast
ZashThere's already one email thing that requires https:///.well-known, don't need more
jonas’DNS doesn’t have a request limit.
Sam Whitedlookup limit, I mean. The SPF specification limits you to 10.
pulkomandyDon't you use DoH for the DNS part anyway? :p
Sam WhitedIt's an SPF problem, not a general DNS problem.
jonas’it’s a recursion limit, though?
moparisthebestARC is the 4th one I couldn't remember https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authenticated_Received_Chain
ZashThe XMPP s2s model always seemed much saner than all the weird things people have done to patch up email.
Sam Whitedjonas’: yes. And every company tries to setup mailchimp/email provider/thing-that-sends-out-alerts, etc. and they all have their own records and then you're hosed and have to try to use different subdomains or split it up somehow when you just want a handful of things to be able to send emails on your behalf.
pulkomandyAll of this to send mails no one really wants to read :D