jdev - 2020-05-12


  1. kikuchiyo has left

  2. sonny has left

  3. sonny has joined

  4. sonny has left

  5. sonny has joined

  6. wurstsalat has left

  7. pulkomandy has left

  8. pulkomandy has joined

  9. kikuchiyo has joined

  10. xecks has left

  11. kikuchiyo has left

  12. sonny has left

  13. sonny has joined

  14. sonny has left

  15. sonny has joined

  16. Wojtek has left

  17. pulkomandy has left

  18. pulkomandy has joined

  19. strar has left

  20. pulkomandy has left

  21. pulkomandy has joined

  22. strar has joined

  23. sonny has left

  24. sonny has joined

  25. sonny has left

  26. sonny has joined

  27. pulkomandy has left

  28. pulkomandy has joined

  29. aj has joined

  30. sonny has left

  31. sonny has joined

  32. sonny has left

  33. sonny has joined

  34. aj has left

  35. kikuchiyo has joined

  36. sonny has left

  37. sonny has joined

  38. sonny has left

  39. sonny has joined

  40. kikuchiyo has left

  41. pulkomandy has left

  42. pulkomandy has joined

  43. sonny has left

  44. sonny has joined

  45. pulkomandy has left

  46. pulkomandy has joined

  47. kikuchiyo has joined

  48. kikuchiyo has left

  49. sonny has left

  50. sonny has joined

  51. sonny has left

  52. sonny has joined

  53. kikuchiyo has joined

  54. kikuchiyo has left

  55. sonny has left

  56. sonny has joined

  57. sonny has left

  58. sonny has joined

  59. kikuchiyo has joined

  60. sonny has left

  61. sonny has joined

  62. kikuchiyo has left

  63. pulkomandy has left

  64. pulkomandy has joined

  65. Yagizа has joined

  66. sonny has left

  67. sonny has joined

  68. sonny has left

  69. sonny has joined

  70. SouL has joined

  71. kikuchiyo has joined

  72. sonny has left

  73. sonny has joined

  74. sonny has left

  75. sonny has joined

  76. kikuchiyo has left

  77. guest1234 has left

  78. pulkomandy has left

  79. pulkomandy has joined

  80. kikuchiyo has joined

  81. sonny has left

  82. sonny has joined

  83. kikuchiyo has left

  84. DebXWoody has joined

  85. sonny has left

  86. sonny has joined

  87. sonny has left

  88. sonny has joined

  89. paul has left

  90. kikuchiyo has joined

  91. paul has joined

  92. kikuchiyo has left

  93. sonny has left

  94. sonny has joined

  95. sonny has left

  96. sonny has joined

  97. guest1234 has joined

  98. pulkomandy has left

  99. pulkomandy has joined

  100. wurstsalat has joined

  101. sonny has left

  102. sonny has joined

  103. user1 has joined

  104. user1

    hello

  105. user1

    😄

  106. user1

    😄

  107. user1

    test

  108. user1 has left

  109. DebXWoody has left

  110. DebXWoody has joined

  111. Yagizа

    user1, 😉👌

  112. sonny has left

  113. sonny has joined

  114. pulkomandy has left

  115. pulkomandy has joined

  116. kikuchiyo has joined

  117. goffi has joined

  118. goffi has left

  119. goffi has joined

  120. goffi has left

  121. kikuchiyo has left

  122. adrien has left

  123. adrien has joined

  124. goffi has joined

  125. goffi has left

  126. sonny has left

  127. sonny has joined

  128. sonny has left

  129. sonny has joined

  130. lovetox has left

  131. pulkomandy has left

  132. pulkomandy has joined

  133. kikuchiyo has joined

  134. goffi has joined

  135. kikuchiyo has left

  136. hari has joined

  137. hari has left

  138. xecks has joined

  139. lovetox has joined

  140. goffi has left

  141. goffi has joined

  142. goffi has left

  143. lovetox has left

  144. xecks has left

  145. xecks has joined

  146. pulkomandy has left

  147. pulkomandy has joined

  148. kikuchiyo has joined

  149. Zash has left

  150. kikuchiyo has left

  151. debacle has joined

  152. kikuchiyo has joined

  153. Zash has joined

  154. kikuchiyo has left

  155. tsk has left

  156. tsk has joined

  157. kikuchiyo has joined

  158. goffi has joined

  159. goffi has left

  160. lovetox has joined

  161. pulkomandy has left

  162. pulkomandy has joined

  163. sonny has left

  164. sonny has joined

  165. sonny has left

  166. sonny has joined

  167. gav has joined

  168. gav has left

  169. gav has joined

  170. pulkomandy has left

  171. sonny has left

  172. sonny has joined

  173. pulkomandy has joined

  174. debacle has left

  175. eta has left

  176. eta has joined

  177. pulkomandy has left

  178. pulkomandy has joined

  179. sonny has left

  180. sonny has joined

  181. sonny has left

  182. sonny has joined

  183. pulkomandy has left

  184. pulkomandy has joined

  185. debacle has joined

  186. SouL has left

  187. SouL has joined

  188. pulkomandy has left

  189. pulkomandy has joined

  190. aj has joined

  191. aj has left

  192. jonas’ has left

  193. jonas’ has joined

  194. Martin has left

  195. sonny has left

  196. sonny has joined

  197. pulkomandy has left

  198. pulkomandy has joined

  199. jonas’ has left

  200. jonas’ has joined

  201. paul has left

  202. Ge0rG has left

  203. Martin has joined

  204. Ge0rG has joined

  205. guest1234 has left

  206. guest1234 has joined

  207. Martin has left

  208. Martin has joined

  209. Martin has left

  210. Martin has joined

  211. Martin has left

  212. pulkomandy has left

  213. pulkomandy has joined

  214. Martin has joined

  215. Sam Whited has joined

  216. Sam Whited

    Most servers I've looked at have separate configuration for S2S ports and C2S ports. Is there any reason other than legacy to actually use another port though? I can't think what bad thing would happen if you just listened for all connections on all ports that you listen on

  217. Zash

    https://prosody.im/doc/modules/mod_net_multiplex :P

  218. Zash

    You might want to apply different firewall policies to c2s / s2s

  219. Sam Whited

    That's fair, or present different TLS certs or something. Maybe it's just to make ops' job easier

  220. Kev

    You may well want to prioritise different sockets differently in your eventloop or whatever, too.

  221. moparisthebest

    Sam Whited, xep-0368 supports that just fine also with different alpn strings

  222. Kev

    I think having a single port for both C2S and S2S is one of those things that's entirely possible, but doesn't buy a lot and there are edge reasons not to.

  223. Zash

    You can if you want.

  224. Sam Whited

    Yah, that all makes sense, I was thinking XMPP level stuff but it makes sense that existing tools that don't know or care about the application level protocol would operate on ports so you'd want to keep them separate

  225. Sam Whited

    Thanks all

  226. Zash

    Email also has different ports for c2s (submission(s), imap(s) etc) and s2s (smtp)

  227. moparisthebest

    right but if it was designed nowadays it'd just use https over 443

  228. moparisthebest

    https://jmap.io/ see?

  229. Zash

    :(

  230. Kev

    Oh, does JMAP do federation over JMAP too? I had in my head it was the client-facing side only for some reason.

  231. Sam Whited

    I don't know much about the JMAP protocol but SMTP needs to die in a fire and Fastmail got a *lot* faster and had less weird edge cases when they switched to JMAP. Could be an implementation thing and not an actual protocol thing, of course, but geeze SMTP needs an update.

  232. Zash

    This seems to me like arguing that XMPP s2s needs to die beacuse XMPP c2s over websockets is better than BOSH?

  233. Sam Whited

    I don't follow the analogy. SMTP just doesn't work very well when you have more than one device, JMAP seems to work very well.

  234. Zash

    That was the point

  235. Sam Whited

    I'm not sure that the transport matters?

  236. Zash

    I don't see how SMTP has anything to do with IMAP/JMAP

  237. Sam Whited

    Oh sorry, I said SMTP and meant IMAP.

  238. Sam Whited

    Although SMTP needs to die in a fire too, but I'm not sure if JMAP replaces that too or not.

  239. Kev

    My (limited) understanding was that JMAP did both the C2S protocols (SMTP/IMAP) but not the S2S protocol (SMTP).

  240. Kev

    I could be wrong.

  241. Sam Whited

    Yah, the intro to the RFC suggests it's just client-to-server

  242. Kev

    JMAP-for-XMPP would be interesting.

  243. Zash

    Less confusing to refer to c2s-SMTP as submission (587 or tls on 465)

  244. Kev

    (Rather, something for XMPP as JMAP is for IMAP/SMTP Submission)

  245. Zash

    Kev: Matrix?

  246. Kev

    I don't think that's quite Matrix.

  247. Martin

    Sam Whited: I guess you'd be in the mood for Amon Amarth - Death In Fire today. 😂

  248. Zash

    Kev, so what properties are you after? Batched operations and magic?

  249. moparisthebest

    wait does JMAP replace SMTP too? I thought it just replaced IMAP

  250. Sam Whited

    Martin: I'm not normally a death metal kind of guy, but if they sang about killing SMTP/IMAP I'd totally listen to that :)

  251. Sam Whited

    moparisthebest: it sounds like it replaces the C2S side of SMTP, but not the S2S side

  252. Kev

    Zash: I said 'interesting', rather than that I was actually after something.

  253. Zash

    No idea what "JMAP for XMPP" would be then.

  254. Martin

    Sam Whited: Unfortunately Viking lyrics, no it problems in those golden times. 😃

  255. Sam Whited

    JMAP is effectively just a generic syncronization protocol with nice routing rules, so maybe the whole discussion about rewriting carbons for the millionth time will effectively be JMAP-over-XMPP just without their wire format

  256. jonas’

    Daniel should be able to comment on that

  257. jonas’

    given that he’s building a JMAP client as a side project

  258. pulkomandy

    I think one problem with IMAP is arbitrary limitations in servers, and clients just adjusting to that because who are you to ask google or microsoft to configure their servers properly?

  259. Sam Whited

    oh neat, didn't know that, I'd be curious to hear if he likes the protocol or not. I don't know any real specifics about it

  260. Zash

    I've heard nothing but praise of JMAP from email related folks

  261. pulkomandy

    At least I remember last time I tried to use the Haiku mail client I ended up having to tweak a lot of things in Dovecot to have it working

  262. Martin has left

  263. jonas’

    FTR https://github.com/iNPUTmice/lttrs-android

  264. Martin has joined

  265. moparisthebest

    Zash, like "you can stop using this cheese grater on your leg, instead use this wire brush, it's slightly less painful" "OH YES THIS IS THE BEST THING EVER!!!!!'

  266. Martin has left

  267. jonas’

    moparisthebest, don’t kinkshame

  268. Sam Whited

    moparisthebest: what is wrong with it that's slighly less bad? So far I've mostly heard good things too (but like I said, I haven't implemented it)

  269. moparisthebest

    email folks like pain, I didn't say there was anything wrong with it :P

  270. Zash

    The model is interesting.

  271. Martin has joined

  272. Zash

    But ugh, why must everything be JSON and HTTP?

  273. jonas’

    SIMPLE!

  274. Zash

    CoAP?

  275. Sam Whited

    Because it's widely understood and seems to work well enough. Better than inventing yet another custom transport anyways

  276. moparisthebest

    don't forget DNS, half of email is in DNS now

  277. moparisthebest

    dkim, spf, dmarc, and that new one I forget the name of

  278. Zash

    > yet another custom transport *ahem* HTTP/1.1, HTTP/2, HTTP/3

  279. Zash

    moparisthebest, myeah, that's kinda gone too far IMO

  280. Sam Whited

    oh geeze, dkim/spf are *really* bad. Those should probably be moved to http / .well-known or whatever. You use like 3 third party services that require SPF records and you run up against the 10 request limit in DNS *really* fast

  281. Zash

    NO!

  282. Zash

    There's already one email thing that requires https:///.well-known, don't need more

  283. jonas’

    DNS doesn’t have a request limit.

  284. Sam Whited

    lookup limit, I mean. The SPF specification limits you to 10.

  285. pulkomandy

    Don't you use DoH for the DNS part anyway? :p

  286. Sam Whited

    It's an SPF problem, not a general DNS problem.

  287. jonas’

    it’s a recursion limit, though?

  288. moparisthebest

    ARC is the 4th one I couldn't remember https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authenticated_Received_Chain

  289. Zash

    The XMPP s2s model always seemed much saner than all the weird things people have done to patch up email.

  290. Sam Whited

    jonas’: yes. And every company tries to setup mailchimp/email provider/thing-that-sends-out-alerts, etc. and they all have their own records and then you're hosed and have to try to use different subdomains or split it up somehow when you just want a handful of things to be able to send emails on your behalf.

  291. pulkomandy

    All of this to send mails no one really wants to read :D

  292. pulkomandy has left

  293. pulkomandy has joined

  294. paul has joined

  295. pulkomandy has left

  296. pulkomandy has joined

  297. xecks has left

  298. xecks has joined

  299. Guus has left

  300. Guus has joined

  301. allie has left

  302. allie has joined

  303. pulkomandy has left

  304. pulkomandy has joined

  305. pulkomandy has left

  306. pulkomandy has joined

  307. goffi has joined

  308. Wojtek has joined

  309. goffi has left

  310. pulkomandy has left

  311. pulkomandy has joined

  312. xecks has left

  313. xecks has joined

  314. xecks has left

  315. xecks has joined

  316. pulkomandy has left

  317. pulkomandy has joined

  318. pulkomandy has left

  319. pulkomandy has joined

  320. debacle has left

  321. Wojtek has left

  322. Wojtek has joined

  323. pulkomandy has left

  324. pulkomandy has joined

  325. Sam Whited has left

  326. debacle has joined

  327. eta has left

  328. eta has joined

  329. debacle has left

  330. debacle has joined

  331. Neustradamus has left

  332. Neustradamus has joined

  333. Yagizа has left

  334. Neustradamus has left

  335. Neustradamus has joined

  336. Neustradamus has left

  337. Neustradamus has joined

  338. wurstsalat has left

  339. wurstsalat has joined

  340. pulkomandy has left

  341. pulkomandy has joined

  342. Syndace has left

  343. pulkomandy has left

  344. pulkomandy has joined

  345. Syndace has joined

  346. pulkomandy has left

  347. pulkomandy has joined

  348. DebXWoody has left

  349. strar has left

  350. strar has joined

  351. pulkomandy has left

  352. pulkomandy has joined

  353. pulkomandy has left

  354. pulkomandy has joined

  355. paul has left

  356. mathieui has left

  357. mathieui has joined

  358. paul has joined

  359. wurstsalat has left

  360. sonny has left

  361. sonny has joined

  362. pulkomandy has left

  363. pulkomandy has joined

  364. rion has joined

  365. sonny has left

  366. sonny has joined

  367. sonny has left

  368. sonny has joined

  369. SouL has left

  370. sonny has left

  371. sonny has joined

  372. sonny has left

  373. sonny has joined

  374. pulkomandy has left

  375. pulkomandy has joined

  376. gg has joined

  377. gg has left

  378. Wojtek has left

  379. xecks has left

  380. sonny has left

  381. sonny has joined

  382. sonny has left

  383. sonny has joined