jdev - 2020-05-12

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  104. user1 hello
  105. user1 😄
  106. user1 😄
  107. user1 test
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  111. Yagizа user1, 😉👌
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  216. Sam Whited Most servers I've looked at have separate configuration for S2S ports and C2S ports. Is there any reason other than legacy to actually use another port though? I can't think what bad thing would happen if you just listened for all connections on all ports that you listen on
  217. Zash https://prosody.im/doc/modules/mod_net_multiplex :P
  218. Zash You might want to apply different firewall policies to c2s / s2s
  219. Sam Whited That's fair, or present different TLS certs or something. Maybe it's just to make ops' job easier
  220. Kev You may well want to prioritise different sockets differently in your eventloop or whatever, too.
  221. moparisthebest Sam Whited, xep-0368 supports that just fine also with different alpn strings
  222. Kev I think having a single port for both C2S and S2S is one of those things that's entirely possible, but doesn't buy a lot and there are edge reasons not to.
  223. Zash You can if you want.
  224. Sam Whited Yah, that all makes sense, I was thinking XMPP level stuff but it makes sense that existing tools that don't know or care about the application level protocol would operate on ports so you'd want to keep them separate
  225. Sam Whited Thanks all
  226. Zash Email also has different ports for c2s (submission(s), imap(s) etc) and s2s (smtp)
  227. moparisthebest right but if it was designed nowadays it'd just use https over 443
  228. moparisthebest https://jmap.io/ see?
  229. Zash :(
  230. Kev Oh, does JMAP do federation over JMAP too? I had in my head it was the client-facing side only for some reason.
  231. Sam Whited I don't know much about the JMAP protocol but SMTP needs to die in a fire and Fastmail got a *lot* faster and had less weird edge cases when they switched to JMAP. Could be an implementation thing and not an actual protocol thing, of course, but geeze SMTP needs an update.
  232. Zash This seems to me like arguing that XMPP s2s needs to die beacuse XMPP c2s over websockets is better than BOSH?
  233. Sam Whited I don't follow the analogy. SMTP just doesn't work very well when you have more than one device, JMAP seems to work very well.
  234. Zash That was the point
  235. Sam Whited I'm not sure that the transport matters?
  236. Zash I don't see how SMTP has anything to do with IMAP/JMAP
  237. Sam Whited Oh sorry, I said SMTP and meant IMAP.
  238. Sam Whited Although SMTP needs to die in a fire too, but I'm not sure if JMAP replaces that too or not.
  239. Kev My (limited) understanding was that JMAP did both the C2S protocols (SMTP/IMAP) but not the S2S protocol (SMTP).
  240. Kev I could be wrong.
  241. Sam Whited Yah, the intro to the RFC suggests it's just client-to-server
  242. Kev JMAP-for-XMPP would be interesting.
  243. Zash Less confusing to refer to c2s-SMTP as submission (587 or tls on 465)
  244. Kev (Rather, something for XMPP as JMAP is for IMAP/SMTP Submission)
  245. Zash Kev: Matrix?
  246. Kev I don't think that's quite Matrix.
  247. Martin Sam Whited: I guess you'd be in the mood for Amon Amarth - Death In Fire today. 😂
  248. Zash Kev, so what properties are you after? Batched operations and magic?
  249. moparisthebest wait does JMAP replace SMTP too? I thought it just replaced IMAP
  250. Sam Whited Martin: I'm not normally a death metal kind of guy, but if they sang about killing SMTP/IMAP I'd totally listen to that :)
  251. Sam Whited moparisthebest: it sounds like it replaces the C2S side of SMTP, but not the S2S side
  252. Kev Zash: I said 'interesting', rather than that I was actually after something.
  253. Zash No idea what "JMAP for XMPP" would be then.
  254. Martin Sam Whited: Unfortunately Viking lyrics, no it problems in those golden times. 😃
  255. Sam Whited JMAP is effectively just a generic syncronization protocol with nice routing rules, so maybe the whole discussion about rewriting carbons for the millionth time will effectively be JMAP-over-XMPP just without their wire format
  256. jonas’ Daniel should be able to comment on that
  257. jonas’ given that he’s building a JMAP client as a side project
  258. pulkomandy I think one problem with IMAP is arbitrary limitations in servers, and clients just adjusting to that because who are you to ask google or microsoft to configure their servers properly?
  259. Sam Whited oh neat, didn't know that, I'd be curious to hear if he likes the protocol or not. I don't know any real specifics about it
  260. Zash I've heard nothing but praise of JMAP from email related folks
  261. pulkomandy At least I remember last time I tried to use the Haiku mail client I ended up having to tweak a lot of things in Dovecot to have it working
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  263. jonas’ FTR https://github.com/iNPUTmice/lttrs-android
  264. Martin has joined
  265. moparisthebest Zash, like "you can stop using this cheese grater on your leg, instead use this wire brush, it's slightly less painful" "OH YES THIS IS THE BEST THING EVER!!!!!'
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  267. jonas’ moparisthebest, don’t kinkshame
  268. Sam Whited moparisthebest: what is wrong with it that's slighly less bad? So far I've mostly heard good things too (but like I said, I haven't implemented it)
  269. moparisthebest email folks like pain, I didn't say there was anything wrong with it :P
  270. Zash The model is interesting.
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  272. Zash But ugh, why must everything be JSON and HTTP?
  273. jonas’ SIMPLE!
  274. Zash CoAP?
  275. Sam Whited Because it's widely understood and seems to work well enough. Better than inventing yet another custom transport anyways
  276. moparisthebest don't forget DNS, half of email is in DNS now
  277. moparisthebest dkim, spf, dmarc, and that new one I forget the name of
  278. Zash > yet another custom transport *ahem* HTTP/1.1, HTTP/2, HTTP/3
  279. Zash moparisthebest, myeah, that's kinda gone too far IMO
  280. Sam Whited oh geeze, dkim/spf are *really* bad. Those should probably be moved to http / .well-known or whatever. You use like 3 third party services that require SPF records and you run up against the 10 request limit in DNS *really* fast
  281. Zash NO!
  282. Zash There's already one email thing that requires https:///.well-known, don't need more
  283. jonas’ DNS doesn’t have a request limit.
  284. Sam Whited lookup limit, I mean. The SPF specification limits you to 10.
  285. pulkomandy Don't you use DoH for the DNS part anyway? :p
  286. Sam Whited It's an SPF problem, not a general DNS problem.
  287. jonas’ it’s a recursion limit, though?
  288. moparisthebest ARC is the 4th one I couldn't remember https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authenticated_Received_Chain
  289. Zash The XMPP s2s model always seemed much saner than all the weird things people have done to patch up email.
  290. Sam Whited jonas’: yes. And every company tries to setup mailchimp/email provider/thing-that-sends-out-alerts, etc. and they all have their own records and then you're hosed and have to try to use different subdomains or split it up somehow when you just want a handful of things to be able to send emails on your behalf.
  291. pulkomandy All of this to send mails no one really wants to read :D
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