jdev - 2020-05-15

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  106. djffk which client
  107. djffk ??
  108. djffk hey listen
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  110. djffk nice to meet you guys i am natasha
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  112. djffk 😂
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  124. Sam Whited Is anyone aware of a SASL implementation (preferably a generic one, but XMPP specific is fine too) that handles both the client and server side of SASL that I could look at?
  125. Link Mauve Sam Whited, this one does: https://crates.io/crates/sasl
  126. Sam Whited Thanks
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  135. Yagizа Hello!
  136. Yagizа I have more questions about OMEMO.
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  138. Sam Whited Ah too bad, that SASL package works almost exactly the same as mine and I was looking to find new API ideas since I don't love the one I've got; oh well :)
  139. Link Mauve ^^'
  140. Yagizа Old implementations of OMEMO (e. g. Conversations) sends in OMEMO messages along with encrypted content <body/> element with a notice for clients, which do not support OMEMO.
  141. Yagizа But there is no mention about it in the XEP.
  142. Yagizа Is it ok to do the same in the implementations of the recent versions of the XEP?
  143. lovetox use XEP-0380
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  146. Zash lovetox, is that understood by clients?
  147. lovetox is this a trick question? :d
  148. Zash Is this implemented in any client?
  149. lovetox yes in many
  150. lovetox i would guess at least every client that has some encryption possibility
  151. lovetox which makes already for a long list
  152. Ge0rG mumbles "TLS"
  153. Yagizа Do we need XEP-0380 to be implemented in clients, which implement XEP-0384?
  154. lovetox its not a dependency if thats the question
  155. lovetox 380 is useful for all clients
  156. lovetox it gives you the possibility to recognize encrypted messages, even if you never heard or implemented it
  157. Zash But the value of 380 would be in clients that *don't* support encryption
  158. Zash Or don't support the specific method of encryption you use
  159. lovetox No clients that dont support a specific encryption
  160. lovetox ergo all
  161. lovetox because all clients dont support at least one encryption
  162. lovetox its a trivial XEP to implement for any client
  163. lovetox the only reason for a fallback body in my opinion is
  164. lovetox if you specifically want to support very old unmaintained legacy clients
  165. lovetox then its the only way
  166. Yagizа I don't see any reason in implementation of XEP-0380 for XEP-0384, 'cause XEP-0384 is too XMPP-ish and XEP-0380 looks more like crutches for the old encryption technologies, like PGP or OTR.
  167. lovetox Yagizа, 380 gives only examples of encryptions
  168. lovetox its encryption agnostic
  169. Zash So far I've only found that Conversations sends it, but doesn't care about it on incoming messages
  170. lovetox it does work for all and every encryption in the future universe
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  173. lovetox Zash how do you determine that it does not care about it on incoming?
  174. Zash Code search
  175. Yagizа lovetox, I consider using <body/> element in the <message/> with encrypted content as a hint for a user rather than a fallback.
  176. Zash Only found code that added it to messages
  177. lovetox Yagizа, i dont see the difference
  178. lovetox if an encrypted message arrives i like to give my user a message in *his* language, a message that i as a client developer decide
  179. Zash But then the Github code search might not be that great
  180. lovetox maybe with hints how to use that encryption in my client
  181. lovetox this is impossible with a fallback body
  182. Zash A <body> also usually ensures that the message goes into the archive and through carbons etc.
  183. lovetox thats the worst reason of all to include one :D
  184. Zash Modern servers should use EME tho.
  185. lovetox and we have storage hints for that
  186. Ge0rG I have to agree with lovetox on this one.
  187. Ge0rG Council took away hints from us.
  188. Zash EME is a hint!
  189. Ge0rG Zash: but is EME a typical IM payload?
  190. Zash Ge0rG, I would argue that you can't know that it isn't if there's an encrypted payload, so it should be stored.
  191. Zash Hope you like encrypted chat states
  192. Ge0rG This chat state was not encrypted for your device.
  193. Zash Wasn't it decided on a summit to move that kind of thing to directed presence?
  194. Ge0rG Zash: yes. and then nothing happened
  195. Ge0rG also see my last mail to standards
  196. Ge0rG lovetox: you might also be interested in "[Standards] Sprint for Message Routing"
  197. Ge0rG and Zash too, we need server folks there
  198. Ge0rG not only zinid
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  218. Zash Ge0rG, your message routing post is missing the most important thing!
  219. Zash a coffee break!
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  221. Zash then it'll be perfect
  222. Ge0rG 😁
  223. Yagizа So, what's the conclusion? Do I have to add <body/> element along to <encrypted/> one or not?
  224. Ge0rG Yagizа: > Entities SHOULD include a non-encrypted body as possible, since older clients not supporting this protocol might otherwise ignore messages sent with an unknown encryption, making both the sender frustrated that their message did not get an answer, and the recipient frustrated that they never saw any message.
  225. Ge0rG Yagizа: add a body along the lines of this:
  226. Ge0rG I sent you an OMEMO encrypted message but your client doesn’t seem to support that. Find more information on https://conversations.im/omemo
  227. Yagizа Ge0rG, yes, that's the message I meant.
  228. Ge0rG Yagizа: yes, add such a message
  229. Yagizа Ge0rG, but the cite you pasted above is from XEP-0380, not from XEP-0384. And my client do not support XEP-0380 so far.
  230. Ge0rG Yagizа: it doesn't matter.
  231. Ge0rG Yagizа: it is good practice to also add a XEP-0380 tag when sending, even if you can't read the tag yet.
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  233. Yagizа Ge0rG, ok, thanx.
  234. Zash There's also https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0428.html which overlaps with 380 ...
  235. lovetox yes a little little bit
  236. lovetox but 428 is not specific for encryptions
  237. Yagizа IC
  238. Zash Still not entirely sure if it should mean anything to a server.
  239. Zash If something was important enough to warrant a fallback-<body/> then it's probably about as important as a message with a <body/>, so should be treated as one.
  240. Zash But you already do that based on the <body/>
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  244. Zash But clients could display it in some way to indicate that it's not quite meant to look like that.
  245. Ge0rG I think that 0428 is similar to Hints. It's a central place trying to define semantincs for something which should better be defined in the individual XEPs that implement fallback bodies
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  248. Sam Whited This⤴️
  249. Ge0rG OTOH, I don't see (much) harm in a hint that says "the body of this message is a fallback" - except that now all the "old" uses of fallback bodies are suddenly incompliant
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  252. Zash Tricky to do anything about that without time travel unfortunately
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  259. Zash Ge0rG, you were talking about your last post to standards, was that the message routing sprint post? I read it as if it was some different post but I'm not seeing any later one.
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  267. Ge0rG Zash: yes, it was that message routing sprint post
  268. Zash k
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