jdev - 2020-05-24

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  41. lovetox hm if im joined a muc, and change my show, do i have to send the presence also directed at the muc? or is it enough to send it for my account
  42. lovetox i know i dont have to if i go offline (unavailable)
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  52. MattJ lovetox: sending it to your account doesn't update the MUC, so yes, you probably want to send those separately
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  76. lovetox and this is expected? when i send a unavailable presence, all mucs get updated by the server
  77. lovetox but not if i only change show and status, because one would probably send different show and status to those mucs?
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  88. MattJ I don't think the rules were necessarily created with MUCs in mind
  89. MattJ The idea is that you can send directed presence to some entities, separate from your account presence. The only special thing is that if you go offline, the server will "cancel" any directed presence for you
  90. Link Mauve I wanted to add a way to change this rule, negociated by the client with a supported server, and have any non-directed presence also update directed presences.
  91. Link Mauve But never did so yet.
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  177. edhelas hey, do you know clients that are implementing and using 0012 ? (https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0012.html)
  178. mathieui we have an (apparently broken) implementation in poezio
  179. edhelas i'm wondering how it is actually implemented
  180. edhelas like, when are you sending those requests, and how are they refreshed
  181. Link Mauve mathieui, didn’t we switch to XEP-0319?
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  215. lovetox edhelas, for example if you open a information dialog of a contact
  216. lovetox or if you hover for some seconds over a tooltip of a contact
  217. lovetox but 0319 is better suited for that obviously
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  220. edhelas yes, i'm working with that one :)
  221. pep. We talked about removing it from poezio at all
  222. pep. 0012
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  232. lovetox in Gajim i answer to 0012 requests
  233. lovetox but i never request it
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  320. pep. What do people say about the 402 / autojoin thread btw? More specifically my point on <extension/>, if any exists, don't randomly remove the bookmark
  321. pep. I can PR that to 402
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  323. pep. It might be "obvious" for some, but the XEP only mentions preserving when editing
  324. pep. > Clients MUST preserve these (particularly preserving unknown elements) when editing items.
  325. pep. And it doesn't say anything about known elements
  326. flow pep., IIRC I suggested, in a thread where dwd was also parcipating, special container elements: one for client generated extensions, and one for server generated extensions
  327. flow this would also solve the cases where clients are unable to replay the elements in the client-generated extensions
  328. pep. That seems orthogonal to my case(?)
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  330. flow potentially, maybe I misinterpreted "my point on <extension/>"
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  332. pep. https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2020-May/037473.html and https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2020-May/037471.html for more context
  333. flow well <extension/> appears to be such a container for client generated extension elements
  334. flow and my idea was to extend the protocl so that if a client does not explicitly include <extension/> on publish, the previous/current content of that container is preserved
  335. pep. I'm not sure what definition you're referring to but it's not really defined in 402
  336. flow exactly, and IIRC there was a previous thread on standards@ how to extend things like bookmarks with custom annotations
  337. flow exactly, and IIRC there was a previous thread on standards@ how to extend things like bookmarks with custom annotations/(meta-)data
  338. pep. My point is not about edition but removal. dunno if these two can/should be mixed?
  339. pep. Also the fact that extensions seems only to be defined in terms of clients not knowing about stuff inside :p
  340. flow https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2019-November/036640.html
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  342. pep. yes I remember this
  343. pep. And I know that's where it comes from :x
  344. flow pep., I am sorry, then I probably did not understand what "More specifically my point on <extension/>, if any exists, don't randomly remove the bookmark" is asking
  345. pep. Asking if anybody is against a PR specifying <extensions/> a bit more in this regard
  346. pep. 402 has no schema. yay
  347. flow pep., what would that additional specification entail?
  348. flow I also usally encourage people to just present patches, be it for specs or source code, as those are easier to discuss ;)
  349. pep. Something along the lines of "If there is an extension that you didn't add yourself, don't automatically remove the entry (that is, without explicit user input)."
  350. flow Isn't that what " Clients MUST preserve these [<extensions/>]" already does?
  351. pep. What about the "when editing items"?
  352. pep. Because I've heard a few client devs ready to remove these items witout blinking
  353. pep. Automatically when the user leaves a room
  354. flow that sounds like non-compliant behavior
  355. pep. So many things a person can infer from half a specified sentence..
  356. flow as the client clearly edited the item while not preserving things
  357. pep. Can we not just add a bit more text in there?
  358. flow well sure
  359. flow clarifications are always good, and it appears your clarification is within the spirit of the xep
  360. flow it's just *very* hard to write specifications that are not open to different interpretations
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  362. lovetox pep., i think you misunderstanding the XEP
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  364. pep. how?
  365. lovetox because you talk about client devs removing items
  366. lovetox of course a client can remove a item if it understand what it does
  367. lovetox this is not an eternal archive of xml elements
  368. pep. Well I'll let the user be the judge
  369. lovetox they have a purpose, one client puts an extension in, and another client can remove it
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  371. lovetox maybe thats the problem, you think this is some kind of User added thing?
  372. pep. lovetox, sure, that is not what I'm saying. I just don't want clients randomly removing items when leaving a room or sth (because the whole point of all our "bookmark" XEPs is to be client sync mechanisms)
  373. pep. (and I stand by this statement)
  374. lovetox random? i dont know what you talking about
  375. pep. That's why I'm not comfortable hacking profiles on top of 402
  376. lovetox if i unset the autojoin flag on a bookmark is this random for you?
  377. lovetox so why would it if i modify an element in the extension node?
  378. pep. Ok remove the "random"
  379. pep. To me, a user leaving a room doesn't justify removing the item
  380. pep. I want the dumb list of bookmarks to be separated from the autojoin mechanism
  381. lovetox but why? so we have to query more for the same functionality?
  382. pep. hmm?
  383. lovetox if you want that make a proposal
  384. lovetox but extension elements can be added by clients, and can of course be removed by them, this has nothing to do with profiles
  385. pep. Well if I could modify 402 right now to be a dumb list of bookmarks and a separate sync mechanism I would do it. But it's draft and I'm sure I'll get quite a few grumps
  386. pep. (so it's not "yet another bookmarks xep")
  387. lovetox so you dont want the bookmarks in PEP?
  388. pep. No that's not the point
  389. pep. I want real bookmarks
  390. pep. And maybe a separate syncing mechanism :)
  391. lovetox do you think when i talked about removing a item i talked about a bookmark?
  392. pep. what else?
  393. lovetox nobody removes bookmarks on leave
  394. lovetox we set the autojoin flag to false
  395. lovetox but dont remove the bookmark
  396. flow which sounds sensible IMHO
  397. lovetox if you have now profiles, the autojoin flag is not enoguh anymore
  398. pep. Well apparently some do, (or would), and I'm just trying to prevent that
  399. lovetox so you add a <profile name=mobil> into the extension
  400. lovetox which means, all clients that have this profile treat this like a autojoin flag
  401. pep. I'm fine with switching autojoin off. It still irks me that 402 is just another client sync mechanism but I can live with it if I have guarantees
  402. lovetox if such a client now leaves the MUC, he removes that profile node
  403. lovetox not the whole bookmark
  404. lovetox so other clients that have the profile dont join the MUC anymore
  405. pep. yeah
  406. lovetox but client that dont have the profile can still honor the not modified autojoin flag
  407. lovetox and that was just an idea out of the top of my head, if you have better proposal please come forward
  408. pep. yeah your proposal seemed fine, with the small detail I added in
  409. lovetox but i want to state, nobody wants to delete bookmarks :)
  410. lovetox but pep. everything you but in PEP is a sync thing or not?
  411. lovetox thats why PEP exists to sync shit
  412. pep. I guess you're missing my point
  413. pep. PEP is fine
  414. lovetox yeah i also think that, you want a "real" bookmark list?
  415. pep. Just a dumb bookmark list. without autojoin.
  416. lovetox dont know what this means, nobody deletes automatically bookmarks, so why would that not be a real bookmark list?
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  418. lovetox why without autojoin? what do you gain if this is not in the XEP?
  419. lovetox can you not simply ignore it?
  420. pep. no because it changes the meaning of the XEP
  421. pep. I can ignore the huge monster in front of me and live my life as usual, that doesn't remove the huge monster in front of me (ish)
  422. pep. Now, as I said above, I'm happy with what you suggested in the thread. It doesn't change the underlying semantics to me, but that works
  423. Link Mauve There was a funny manga about that. :D
  424. Link Mauve Where a girl who can see monsters tries to ignore them but is scared by them anyway.
  425. lovetox pep., i dont even care about that, i dont even own a smartphone, and im joined 10 MUCs, i dont need profiles
  426. lovetox i just out of interest want to understand what you think :)
  427. pep. I don't especially have the same usage of phones or desktop / console clients
  428. lovetox i see autojoin as something you can ignore, other clients will modify it, but it will not change your bookmark list
  429. pep. lovetox, I would still have use for autojoin, I just don't think it fits in bookmarks and should be separate
  430. pep. Then you can have pointers to these bookmarks etc. and do howmanyxeps you want
  431. lovetox but that would be a pain in the ass with race conditions
  432. lovetox a bookmark list in pep, and then a autojoin list in pep
  433. lovetox i really dont want to think about it ^
  434. lovetox i really dont want to think about it ^^
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  436. pep. Maybe the whole thing is flawed :x
  437. lovetox no it works fine, just be fine with it :)
  438. pep. I'll "just" ignore this message :p
  439. pep. I can't think of a proper name otherwise I'd propose something else for 402
  440. pep. To reflect the semantics
  441. lovetox great
  442. lovetox now is sleep time, good night
  443. pep. :)
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