jdev - 2020-09-02

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  161. eta

    wait, hang on

  162. eta

    a user just has one big MAM archive??

  163. eta

    it isn't per conversation??

  164. jonas’


  165. jonas’

    just one archive, but you can filter

  166. eta

    oh yeah, filtering

  167. eta


  168. eta

    was reviewing the Dino MAM code and it just pulls /everything/ from The Archive

  169. eta

    which is an interesting way of doing things

  170. flow

    eta, i'd assume most implementations do that

  171. eta

    hmm, reasonable

  172. flow

    just like mail clients sync their state of the imap server

  173. pep.

    Poezio doesn't, and tbh I'm not sure it will ever :/

  174. eta

    pep., does it only do MAM when you hit page-up

  175. flow

    just like mail clients sync their state with their imap server

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  177. pep.

    On join also

  178. jonas’

    eta, does it handle gaps though?

  179. Zash

    And that's why, the first time you start those clients, it produces one bazillion notifications

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  182. eta

    Zash, yeah, that dino behaviour is very stupid

  183. pep.

    The smart thing would really just be to fetch when you open a tab, or to have something (that Inbox is.. somewhat?) that says "You have to fetch MAM here, here, here and here"

  184. jonas’

    pep., also the annoying thing

  185. pep.

    Yeah well..

  186. eta

    pep., I thought conversations did the fetch-when-you-open-the-tab thing

  187. jonas’

    no, conversations does a full sync when it comes online

  188. jonas’

    I painfully notice that every single time

  189. eta


  190. eta


  191. Zash

    Sync 😞

  192. jonas’

    eta, why?

  193. jonas’

    it is the right thing to do

  194. jonas’

    otherwise you’re going to miss/delay messages

  195. eta

    jonas’, I can't do things like open an old conversation and have it load scrollback

  196. jonas’

    and users don’t like that

  197. jonas’

    eta, huh?

  198. jonas’

    it has the history locally

  199. pep.

    jonas’, I don't think it's the right thing to do as I said above :x

  200. pep.

    Or let's agree there are multiple rights

  201. jonas’

    pep., so you prefer to require manual user interaction to get notifications for messages which wree sent while you were out of network coverage?

  202. pep.

    "to have something (that Inbox is.. somewhat?) that says "You have to fetch MAM here, here, here and here""

  203. pep.

    You can hint the user that there are unread messages in other tabs and that they can go look at them

  204. eta

    jonas’, it doesn't, because I installed conversations after the time that this conversation happened

  205. lovetox

    to do it per contact, is unnecessary complex, you have to reliaze that there are almost no mam messages if you start your client

  206. jonas’

    eta, ah, AFAIK it’ll try to fetch stuff when you scroll beyond the local archive

  207. lovetox

    on a normal connection you can download 1000 messages in about 3 seconds

  208. pep.

    lovetox, and fetching all the world is painfully slow and annoying for most people

  209. lovetox

    there will never be 1000 messages waiting if you start your client

  210. jonas’

    lovetox, tell that to my conversations.

  211. jonas’

    and the gazillion of MUCs

  212. lovetox

    of course MUCs are only fetched if you join the muc

  213. eta


  214. eta

    the thing is, right

  215. eta

    I don't actually care about fetching the world

  216. pep.

    But you do join MUCs at startup :)

  217. pep.

    bookmarks etc.

  218. pep.

    poof 80 MUCs opened, MAM fetching, uuuuuuughhhh

  219. eta

    like you can totally do that in the background on a low-priority task or something

  220. jonas’

    pep., I am not

  221. pep.


  222. jonas’

    I am in like five MUCs in C

  223. eta

    the thing which annoys me is when it makes the unread counts go to like 10000 on everything

  224. eta

    or generates notifications

  225. eta

    really, what we probably need is a XEP for read state sync

  226. pep.

    eta, agreed

  227. jonas’

    eta, agreed

  228. pep.

    Something that allows me to set the state in the past also plz

  229. eta

    it doesn't even have to be that hard

  230. eta

    an extra field in bookmarks + an extra field in roster

  231. lovetox

    there will not be many messages in MUCs

  232. lovetox

    you need a concept of a threshold

  233. eta

    lovetox, tell that to my high-velocity IRC channels

  234. pep.

    eta, so you only want to sync state in MUC? Not 1:1?

  235. lovetox

    up to you sync

  236. lovetox

    that means a public muc has a threshold of 1

  237. eta

    pep., and roster

  238. lovetox

    so you only sync one day

  239. pep.

    roster? :/

  240. lovetox

    a private muc has never many messages, so you sync everything

  241. pep.

    lovetox, that's your usage of private MUCs maybe

  242. pep.

    Not saying that I have, but I don't want to rule this out

  243. lovetox

    thats why you can change the thresold even for private mucs, if you have that one muc where 1000 messages a day are posted

  244. pep.

    If Snikket decides that their version of private MUCs will only have few messages and that's how they do MAM, then fine. But I don't want XMPP to decide that for me

  245. lovetox

    the one thing i learned is, you cant do this right without user interaction

  246. lovetox

    its impossible

  247. eta

    we need MUC categories!

  248. lovetox

    there is no magic algorythm that lets you do this in all circumstances right

  249. eta

    that way you can have a "low priority public MUCs" category

  250. lovetox

    you can simply choose the threshold per muc

  251. pep.

    eta, you don't exactly need to formalize that. Especially since they'll be different for different design guidelines

  252. eta


  253. eta

    hmm, what would be the ideal primitive for read state sync though

  254. eta


  255. pep.

    PEP probably

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  257. lovetox

    and how do you store that

  258. lovetox

    on every received muc message update pep?

  259. lovetox

    and if multiple devices receive it

  260. lovetox

    all update it at the same time

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  262. lovetox

    sounds not really nice

  263. Zash

    lovetox: > there will never be 1000 messages waiting if you start your client You haven't experienced infinitely persistent MAM, have you? It's super fun when your archive goes back to the beginning of MAM itself.

  264. lovetox

    does not mean you need to request it

  265. Zash

    But clients do this

  266. Zash

    And treats every message as new

  267. lovetox

    but i talked about your user archive

  268. lovetox

    not about mucs

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  270. lovetox

    mucs you need to manage per muc

  271. Zash

    So was I (personal archive)

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  273. lovetox

    in a user archive will not wait that many messages, that you have to manage it per contact

  274. pep.

    Well, start a new Dino profile and observe

  275. pep.

    Or maybe that got better lately? I don't remember

  276. eta


  277. lovetox

    thats why i sync only 7 days at first start

  278. lovetox

    if the user wants all his history he can click a button that downloads it once

  279. lovetox

    with a progress dialog

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  281. pep.

    Yeah I'm not entirely fond of having arbitrary numbers like this. 7 days can still be empty and all of the chat happens on the 8th day or sth

  282. lovetox

    then hit the button :)

  283. pep.

    Weird UX :/

  284. lovetox

    not all, its easy to understand, and easy to implement

  285. edhelas

    Zash for the moment I never cleared MAM history on movim.eu :D

  286. lovetox

    its like whatsapp

  287. lovetox

    you set up a new device, and it will ask you if you want to sync your messages from google drive or something

  288. Zash

    I got the impression that Conversations fetches stuff per contact when you scroll up a bit

  289. pep.

    lovetox, who says whatsapp is good :p

  290. eta

    lovetox: the gajim history sync dialog is good, tbh

  291. pep.

    I haven't seen it in action, but from what I understand here, I'd rather fetch a set number of messages than a set number of days, at least

  292. pep.

    In poezio atm I try to have 2 pages of buffer at all times, so that I can display them instantly and only fetch previous to that

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  294. Zash

    pep. here's an inbox prototype thing that's waiting for a client to prototype something against: https://modules.prosody.im/mod_map.html

  295. pep.

    k, I might have a look at some point

  296. pep.

    Slightly similar to Inbox right?

  297. pep.

    How do you count?

  298. Zash

    How how?

  299. pep.

    What's the count you're returning? What does it mean

  300. Zash

    Number of messages

  301. pep.

    what messages

  302. Zash

    All messages

  303. pep.

    All messages in the archive? All unfetched messages? All unfetched on this device?

  304. pep.

    All unread messages? (but fetched nonetheless)

  305. Zash

    It's essentially a MAM query that doesn't return the results, only a summary

  306. Zash

    It predates the whole notion of per-payload stuff that might be what people refer to as inbox

  307. pep.


  308. pep.

    So it's all of the archive?

  309. pep.

    If I wanted to use this I'd mostly use @jid and <end/> I guess..

  310. pep.


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  312. Zash

    Supposed to get you everything you need to show a "recent conversations" list

  313. eta

    so on top of this we just need a "recent mentions / notifications" thing

  314. pep.

    Zash, only for 1:1?

  315. Zash


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  318. Zash

    It's a MAM query that returns a summary. Not a thing that fixes MUC

  319. pep.


  320. Zash

    Best I can think for unaltered MUC (with MAM) is to join with history(maxstanzas=1), which gets you some of the same data

  321. eta

    reminds me to finish my protoXEP

  322. eta

    not that finishing the XEP will change anything though >_<

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  342. lovetox

    i wonder how many people use Gajim

  343. lovetox

    i just checked chocolatey, we dont maintain the package there, but it has 7500 downloads Oo

  344. lovetox

    and thats a nerdy package manager for windows

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  347. pep.

    Same person downloading it over and over again?

  348. pep.

    Or a single company downloading it for all their users? :P

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  350. lovetox

    hm no its 7500 since existence, the last version has 300

  351. lovetox

    thats a bit more expected

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  367. Zash

    lovetox: https://qa.debian.org/popcon.php?package=gajim might be of interest as well

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  369. lovetox


  370. lovetox

    only rank 99700

  371. lovetox

    need to improve that

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  374. Link Mauve

    “10:58:00 lovetox> there will never be 1000 messages waiting if you start your client”, tell that to my Dino, which I open maybe once a month, and is unresponsive for dozens of minutes while it fetches all of my pending messages.

  375. Link Mauve

    SQLite being the bottleneck here.

  376. Link Mauve

    Not XMPP or my ADSL connection.

  377. lovetox

    really? sounds weird

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  379. lovetox

    did you ever google sqlite insert stats

  380. lovetox

    or you have a really slow harddisk

  381. lovetox


  382. Link Mauve

    I have a fast SSD, it’s limited by sqlite on a single thread.

  383. lovetox

    there even the first try not optimized at all, insert 23000 records into a database

  384. lovetox

    per second

  385. Link Mauve

    lovetox, https://github.com/dino/dino/issues/853

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  387. Ge0rG

    Link Mauve: sqlite is not the bottleneck, it's just incorrectly used.

  388. lovetox

    lets agree on, the bottleneck is probably how they use sqlite

  389. lovetox


  390. Ge0rG

    so far, 99% of problems with sqlite were at layer 8. It's one of the most robust pieces of software out there.

  391. Link Mauve

    I didn’t find anything obvious last time I looked at Dino’s usage, maybe you’ll have more luck.

  392. Link Mauve

    I’m… not very good at SQLy things.

  393. Link Mauve

    Zash, lovetox, Pidgin just recently got installed more times than Empathy in Debian! https://qa.debian.org/popcon-graph.php?packages=gajim%2C+dino-im%2C+pidgin%2C+empathy&show_installed=on&want_legend=on&want_ticks=on&from_date=&to_date=&hlght_date=&date_fmt=%25Y-%25m&beenhere=1

  394. lovetox

    never used empathy, seems it was pretty popular

  395. Link Mauve

    It was preinstalled with GNOME.

  396. Link Mauve

    But I’m sure most people just ignored it and installed Skype or whatever popular thing there was back then.

  397. lovetox


  398. Ge0rG

    Link Mauve: there are four indexes and four triggers on the `message` table. But maybe it's still accessing something index-less? dunno

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  401. eta

    Link Mauve: put your sqlite in WAL mode

  402. eta

    will make Dino a lot faster

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