jdev - 2020-09-02

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  161. eta wait, hang on
  162. eta a user just has one big MAM archive??
  163. eta it isn't per conversation??
  164. jonas’ no
  165. jonas’ just one archive, but you can filter
  166. eta oh yeah, filtering
  167. eta right
  168. eta was reviewing the Dino MAM code and it just pulls /everything/ from The Archive
  169. eta which is an interesting way of doing things
  170. flow eta, i'd assume most implementations do that
  171. eta hmm, reasonable
  172. flow just like mail clients sync their state of the imap server
  173. pep. Poezio doesn't, and tbh I'm not sure it will ever :/
  174. eta pep., does it only do MAM when you hit page-up
  175. flow just like mail clients sync their state with their imap server
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  177. pep. On join also
  178. jonas’ eta, does it handle gaps though?
  179. Zash And that's why, the first time you start those clients, it produces one bazillion notifications
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  182. eta Zash, yeah, that dino behaviour is very stupid
  183. pep. The smart thing would really just be to fetch when you open a tab, or to have something (that Inbox is.. somewhat?) that says "You have to fetch MAM here, here, here and here"
  184. jonas’ pep., also the annoying thing
  185. pep. Yeah well..
  186. eta pep., I thought conversations did the fetch-when-you-open-the-tab thing
  187. jonas’ no, conversations does a full sync when it comes online
  188. jonas’ I painfully notice that every single time
  189. eta oh
  190. eta disappointing
  191. Zash Sync 😞
  192. jonas’ eta, why?
  193. jonas’ it is the right thing to do
  194. jonas’ otherwise you’re going to miss/delay messages
  195. eta jonas’, I can't do things like open an old conversation and have it load scrollback
  196. jonas’ and users don’t like that
  197. jonas’ eta, huh?
  198. jonas’ it has the history locally
  199. pep. jonas’, I don't think it's the right thing to do as I said above :x
  200. pep. Or let's agree there are multiple rights
  201. jonas’ pep., so you prefer to require manual user interaction to get notifications for messages which wree sent while you were out of network coverage?
  202. pep. "to have something (that Inbox is.. somewhat?) that says "You have to fetch MAM here, here, here and here""
  203. pep. You can hint the user that there are unread messages in other tabs and that they can go look at them
  204. eta jonas’, it doesn't, because I installed conversations after the time that this conversation happened
  205. lovetox to do it per contact, is unnecessary complex, you have to reliaze that there are almost no mam messages if you start your client
  206. jonas’ eta, ah, AFAIK it’ll try to fetch stuff when you scroll beyond the local archive
  207. lovetox on a normal connection you can download 1000 messages in about 3 seconds
  208. pep. lovetox, and fetching all the world is painfully slow and annoying for most people
  209. lovetox there will never be 1000 messages waiting if you start your client
  210. jonas’ lovetox, tell that to my conversations.
  211. jonas’ and the gazillion of MUCs
  212. lovetox of course MUCs are only fetched if you join the muc
  213. eta ^
  214. eta the thing is, right
  215. eta I don't actually care about fetching the world
  216. pep. But you do join MUCs at startup :)
  217. pep. bookmarks etc.
  218. pep. poof 80 MUCs opened, MAM fetching, uuuuuuughhhh
  219. eta like you can totally do that in the background on a low-priority task or something
  220. jonas’ pep., I am not
  221. pep. that
  222. jonas’ I am in like five MUCs in C
  223. eta the thing which annoys me is when it makes the unread counts go to like 10000 on everything
  224. eta or generates notifications
  225. eta really, what we probably need is a XEP for read state sync
  226. pep. eta, agreed
  227. jonas’ eta, agreed
  228. pep. Something that allows me to set the state in the past also plz
  229. eta it doesn't even have to be that hard
  230. eta an extra field in bookmarks + an extra field in roster
  231. lovetox there will not be many messages in MUCs
  232. lovetox you need a concept of a threshold
  233. eta lovetox, tell that to my high-velocity IRC channels
  234. pep. eta, so you only want to sync state in MUC? Not 1:1?
  235. lovetox up to you sync
  236. lovetox that means a public muc has a threshold of 1
  237. eta pep., and roster
  238. lovetox so you only sync one day
  239. pep. roster? :/
  240. lovetox a private muc has never many messages, so you sync everything
  241. pep. lovetox, that's your usage of private MUCs maybe
  242. pep. Not saying that I have, but I don't want to rule this out
  243. lovetox thats why you can change the thresold even for private mucs, if you have that one muc where 1000 messages a day are posted
  244. pep. If Snikket decides that their version of private MUCs will only have few messages and that's how they do MAM, then fine. But I don't want XMPP to decide that for me
  245. lovetox the one thing i learned is, you cant do this right without user interaction
  246. lovetox its impossible
  247. eta we need MUC categories!
  248. lovetox there is no magic algorythm that lets you do this in all circumstances right
  249. eta that way you can have a "low priority public MUCs" category
  250. lovetox you can simply choose the threshold per muc
  251. pep. eta, you don't exactly need to formalize that. Especially since they'll be different for different design guidelines
  252. eta true
  253. eta hmm, what would be the ideal primitive for read state sync though
  254. eta pubsub??
  255. pep. PEP probably
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  257. lovetox and how do you store that
  258. lovetox on every received muc message update pep?
  259. lovetox and if multiple devices receive it
  260. lovetox all update it at the same time
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  262. lovetox sounds not really nice
  263. Zash lovetox: > there will never be 1000 messages waiting if you start your client You haven't experienced infinitely persistent MAM, have you? It's super fun when your archive goes back to the beginning of MAM itself.
  264. lovetox does not mean you need to request it
  265. Zash But clients do this
  266. Zash And treats every message as new
  267. lovetox but i talked about your user archive
  268. lovetox not about mucs
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  270. lovetox mucs you need to manage per muc
  271. Zash So was I (personal archive)
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  273. lovetox in a user archive will not wait that many messages, that you have to manage it per contact
  274. pep. Well, start a new Dino profile and observe
  275. pep. Or maybe that got better lately? I don't remember
  276. eta nope
  277. lovetox thats why i sync only 7 days at first start
  278. lovetox if the user wants all his history he can click a button that downloads it once
  279. lovetox with a progress dialog
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  281. pep. Yeah I'm not entirely fond of having arbitrary numbers like this. 7 days can still be empty and all of the chat happens on the 8th day or sth
  282. lovetox then hit the button :)
  283. pep. Weird UX :/
  284. lovetox not all, its easy to understand, and easy to implement
  285. edhelas Zash for the moment I never cleared MAM history on movim.eu :D
  286. lovetox its like whatsapp
  287. lovetox you set up a new device, and it will ask you if you want to sync your messages from google drive or something
  288. Zash I got the impression that Conversations fetches stuff per contact when you scroll up a bit
  289. pep. lovetox, who says whatsapp is good :p
  290. eta lovetox: the gajim history sync dialog is good, tbh
  291. pep. I haven't seen it in action, but from what I understand here, I'd rather fetch a set number of messages than a set number of days, at least
  292. pep. In poezio atm I try to have 2 pages of buffer at all times, so that I can display them instantly and only fetch previous to that
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  294. Zash pep. here's an inbox prototype thing that's waiting for a client to prototype something against: https://modules.prosody.im/mod_map.html
  295. pep. k, I might have a look at some point
  296. pep. Slightly similar to Inbox right?
  297. pep. How do you count?
  298. Zash How how?
  299. pep. What's the count you're returning? What does it mean
  300. Zash Number of messages
  301. pep. what messages
  302. Zash All messages
  303. pep. All messages in the archive? All unfetched messages? All unfetched on this device?
  304. pep. All unread messages? (but fetched nonetheless)
  305. Zash It's essentially a MAM query that doesn't return the results, only a summary
  306. Zash It predates the whole notion of per-payload stuff that might be what people refer to as inbox
  307. pep. k
  308. pep. So it's all of the archive?
  309. pep. If I wanted to use this I'd mostly use @jid and <end/> I guess..
  310. pep. Maybe
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  312. Zash Supposed to get you everything you need to show a "recent conversations" list
  313. eta so on top of this we just need a "recent mentions / notifications" thing
  314. pep. Zash, only for 1:1?
  315. Zash Yes
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  318. Zash It's a MAM query that returns a summary. Not a thing that fixes MUC
  319. pep. :P
  320. Zash Best I can think for unaltered MUC (with MAM) is to join with history(maxstanzas=1), which gets you some of the same data
  321. eta reminds me to finish my protoXEP
  322. eta not that finishing the XEP will change anything though >_<
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  342. lovetox i wonder how many people use Gajim
  343. lovetox i just checked chocolatey, we dont maintain the package there, but it has 7500 downloads Oo
  344. lovetox and thats a nerdy package manager for windows
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  347. pep. Same person downloading it over and over again?
  348. pep. Or a single company downloading it for all their users? :P
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  350. lovetox hm no its 7500 since existence, the last version has 300
  351. lovetox thats a bit more expected
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  367. Zash lovetox: https://qa.debian.org/popcon.php?package=gajim might be of interest as well
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  369. lovetox damn
  370. lovetox only rank 99700
  371. lovetox need to improve that
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  374. Link Mauve “10:58:00 lovetox> there will never be 1000 messages waiting if you start your client”, tell that to my Dino, which I open maybe once a month, and is unresponsive for dozens of minutes while it fetches all of my pending messages.
  375. Link Mauve SQLite being the bottleneck here.
  376. Link Mauve Not XMPP or my ADSL connection.
  377. lovetox really? sounds weird
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  379. lovetox did you ever google sqlite insert stats
  380. lovetox or you have a really slow harddisk
  381. lovetox https://stackoverflow.com/questions/1711631/improve-insert-per-second-performance-of-sqlite
  382. Link Mauve I have a fast SSD, it’s limited by sqlite on a single thread.
  383. lovetox there even the first try not optimized at all, insert 23000 records into a database
  384. lovetox per second
  385. Link Mauve lovetox, https://github.com/dino/dino/issues/853
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  387. Ge0rG Link Mauve: sqlite is not the bottleneck, it's just incorrectly used.
  388. lovetox lets agree on, the bottleneck is probably how they use sqlite
  389. lovetox :)
  390. Ge0rG so far, 99% of problems with sqlite were at layer 8. It's one of the most robust pieces of software out there.
  391. Link Mauve I didn’t find anything obvious last time I looked at Dino’s usage, maybe you’ll have more luck.
  392. Link Mauve I’m… not very good at SQLy things.
  393. Link Mauve Zash, lovetox, Pidgin just recently got installed more times than Empathy in Debian! https://qa.debian.org/popcon-graph.php?packages=gajim%2C+dino-im%2C+pidgin%2C+empathy&show_installed=on&want_legend=on&want_ticks=on&from_date=&to_date=&hlght_date=&date_fmt=%25Y-%25m&beenhere=1
  394. lovetox never used empathy, seems it was pretty popular
  395. Link Mauve It was preinstalled with GNOME.
  396. Link Mauve But I’m sure most people just ignored it and installed Skype or whatever popular thing there was back then.
  397. lovetox ah
  398. Ge0rG Link Mauve: there are four indexes and four triggers on the `message` table. But maybe it's still accessing something index-less? dunno
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  401. eta Link Mauve: put your sqlite in WAL mode
  402. eta will make Dino a lot faster
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