the more i think about it the more i have the opinion that i don’t need scrollback MAM requests
lovetox
for the own account, i simply download the whole archive at start or user request✎
lovetox
for the own account, i simply download the whole archive at start or only on user request ✏
lovetox
and for MUCs, there are small private MUCs, where you just download everything since last join
lovetox
the only place where such a scrollback feature would maybe make sense, are bigger open mucs
eta
lovetox, I mean I think it'
eta
oops
eta
lovetox, I think it's a question of priority
eta
like, yeah, I think synchronizing the full MAM archive is the way to go
eta
but synchronize the personal MAM archive before synchronizing any MUCs, then do small private MUCs, then do big MUCs
eta
the first two types of synchronization are "blocking", and usually must complete before the app is usable
eta
synchronizing the bigger MUCs can happen in a background job with low priority (i.e. don't slow the app down to do them)
Ge0rG
blocking is always a bad idea
lovetox
download in the background with low priority is easy said but really hard done
eta
Ge0rG, I used quotes for a reason, right
eta
I meant more from a UI/UX perspective more than anything else
Ge0rG
eta: you should try to use XMPP on a typical German mobile "broadband" connection, while sitting on the regional train in the middle of nowhere
lovetox
you would need to analyse the traffic, and then slowly start issuing requests and stop them when you exceed some traffic limit
lovetox
very complex stuff
Ge0rG
open a second XMPP connection ;)
Ge0rG
or maybe XMPP over HTTP/2
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Ge0rG
the fun part is when the data you requested is so large that it exceeds your server's 0198 queue size and your session gets killed
Ge0rG
and then you reconnect and request the same data again
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eta
lovetox, okay, fair enough
eta
lovetox, the ordering thing is still valid though
eta
or, hmm, maybe not
lovetox
eta i would say the order does not matter, except when the user switches to a chat
lovetox
then stop everything else, and do that one
eta
lovetox, yeah, that's good
lovetox
this is relatively easy
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eta
lovetox, by far the biggest issue I think currently though is notifications
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eta
on pretty much every client doing a MAM catchup results in loads of unread messages that you've actually read somewhere else
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eta
and it makes the unread list pretty useless as a result
Zash
This!
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lovetox
hard to solve problem
lovetox
i dont like the idea to push a read-message-id to the server for any message i receive
eta
lovetox, fwiw this is why I have to use dino instead of gajim even though I'd rather use gajim
eta
because dino at least sorts the chats by last message
eta
so it's not a total loss
Zash
... but Dino does the same thing if you haven't had it running for a while, or on first startup
eta
with gajim there are like 100 chats all with 50 unreads and it's like, which one of those do I click on
eta
e*
Zash
bazillions of notifications
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eta
Zash, sure but it's less of an issue because I don't rely on the unread state for anything
eta
with gajim I need the unread state to tell me "hey click on this window, there's activity"
eta
lovetox, I mean, you already send a smacks ack for every message you receive...
lovetox
that does not mean read though
Ge0rG
eta: yaxim will mark all conversations as read to which you have replied from any of your clients. ;)
eta
also it wouldn't be every message you receive, just every message you receive while the chat is focused
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Ge0rG
also it will queue pending outging 0184 ACKs and only send one if there isn't one already in MAM
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Zash
At least delaying notifications until the whole sync thing has completed would be an improvement
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eta
Ge0rG, it will and this is nice! however (a) that doesn't deal with situations where I didn't reply but still read it on another device, and (b) to clear the freaking unread marker I have to scroll *all the way* up
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eta
my hacky gajim fork at one point just unconditionally sent 0184 displayed markers for every single message
Zash
I also miss the "Mark all chats as read" option from Yaxim in all other clients :)
Ge0rG
eta: that's unfortunate
Zash
eta: itym 333
eta
and that was actually really pleasant, but obviously leaked everything
eta
Zash, probably ;)
etacontemplates just writing a prosody module to carbon, but not actually send, displayed chat markers if they're sent in a large MUC
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eta
(and then hacks to dino/gajim/convos to unconditionally send such markers)
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eta
I feel like as solutions go though, that's not a terrible one
eta
although OTOH it wouldn't work well if the other clients weren't online
eta
so it's a hack
Zash
eta: There's one that's almost that. It could do something sensible wrt channel vs private group chats
eta
Zash, is this the marker tracking one
Zashlooks it up
Zash
I'm thinking of https://modules.prosody.im/mod_muc_markers.html
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eta
yeah, that
eta
Zash, does that work for remote MUCs?
Zash
Moves chat markers into a separate store from MAM, so there's only one per user
Well it needs to run in the MUC itself, so probably no ✏
eta
yeah okay, so that doesn't quite do what I want
Zash
You could probably do something like it locally but I imagine there'll be all sorts of fun"
eta
eh, or we just go back to the idea of using pubsub or something
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eta
publish to a PEP node whenever you read a new message
etastill doesn't actually understand how conversations does its notification-suppressing magic
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Zash
Ask the code or Daniel. I think it does magic when it sees messages from yourself.
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lovetox
but do we have even a theoretical approach for the readstate sync in MUCs problem
lovetox
i dont think its a solution that a MUC with 100 people, and every message to the MUC triggers 100 read markers sent to the MUC
lovetox
that just doesnt scale
Zash
Hence server-side magic that records that, broadcasts it only to your own devices.
lovetox
still not scaleable
Zash
Why?
lovetox
because one message triggers hundreads
lovetox
if 100 people chat, you have 10.000 messages
lovetox
if you have 100 MUCs on your server
lovetox
that just adds up exponentially
Zash
I said
> broadcasts it only to your own devices.
Zash
So in this case there would be like 200 messages
lovetox
what do you broadcast?
Zash
The read marker
lovetox
i have to first tell the MUC that i read the message or?
Zash
Not broadcast, but rather only reflect it back to you (and your phone)
Zash
This is already how it works
lovetox
point is i have to tell the muc
Zash
I'm describing a traffic optimization for larger groupchats
lovetox
if 100 people tell the MUC, its 1 message triggers 100 to the server
lovetox
i think the solution needs to happen on the user server
lovetox
not on the MUC server
Zash
Doable.
Zash
If you reuse 333 syntax then the client doesn't even need to know the difference.
lovetox
maybe use 333, but add a element, like <server-only>, so the server does not route it to the remote host for MUCs
Zash
But there's still 100 read notifications sent somewhere.
lovetox
yeah Zash but distributed over 100 servers
lovetox
as it should be
lovetox
ok the server keeps then a list with tuples (jid, message-id)
lovetox
does not help us much for mam
lovetox
hm ..
lovetox
ah no should work
Zash
and then use that as basis for offline message replay instead of MAM!
lovetox
the only problem i see with this is, that the list of (jid, message-id) grows endless
lovetox
maybe some cleanup can be made from time to time, like if no readmarker was sent for 6 months for a jid
lovetox
but good thing is also its not terrible sensible data
Zash
Do you need to save more than one per JID?
lovetox
if its lost, client gets a few notifications more
Zash
Doesn't this kind of thing only need to be a forward-moving pointer per JID?
Zash
And then the set of (jid, id) tuples wouldn't be much larger than your roster + bookmarks✎
Zash
And then the set of (jid, id) tuples wouldn't be much larger than your roster + MUC/MIX bookmarks ✏
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Zash
Keeping such tuples a bit longer than the MAM retention period shouldn't be a problem
lovetox
yeah but sometimes mam is forever
lovetox
MUCs count grows over time
lovetox
but yeah ok its solveable thing
Zash
If you do have infinite MAM then that's going to be the bigger problem anyways.
Zash
JID and message ids aren't that large compared to stanzas
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lovetox
i see it mainly from a, i have to query it at start perspective
lovetox
if it can grow infinitly we need paging etc etc
lovetox
more roundtrips etc
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carrabelloy
Hello everyone and have a wonderful good evening with everyone and thank you very much for the inclusion at loma node.
I didn't want to stay long either, but since I've installed everything on my server and I can't get into the system https://treff.darknight-coffee.org/friendica. I had to go this way. And I am very grateful that it worked out so quickly because it is private social networks.
The other aspect is that it is a very good idea, but such platforms are, or are, to blame for the fact that they are so little heard or used so little.
What do you find in German? A small wiki that you want to turn off at the end of the month. What else did I find on the YouTube channel? A small video that shows how you can create your profile here and upload a picture. My goodness how ridiculous that is.
Then a couple of good blogs to convey to people what decentralized servers or better said home cloud is and means. Because not everyone wants to deal with the technology. Which can and should be pretty clear. Because not everyone does the same job or the same studies or anything else.
The start page is also a joke from Friendica again, unfortunately, although the idea and many ideas that are developed and added in the open source world are good.
But why does it all have to continue in English or just?
With 500 million people this is a sign of poverty if you calculate that a quarter of them speak German, like Austria, Switzerland, Belgium, which among the Belgians is divided into French and German because there are the Walloons and the Flemings. Then the Netherlands, where some speak Dutch and German. And then Germany itself, where another 83 or even now almost 85 million citizens live.
And what about these people, if you take a closer look at the statistics or ask around, it is not that everyone speaks English or even wants to.
Just like me as well. I've never really been interested in English, and I never had it at school before. School was expensive back then. And one more aspect, I am more into the German language in general. And that is being pushed aside by this diversity and globalization. I've always been interested in software, and I've been interested in software for years when our government has completely overslept Ms. Merkel for the last 15 years. Now that it's getting tricky, everything has to be implemented very quickly. But what do you want from the young, broad society who like to shop and the older ones have absolutely no idea about software and technology. Soory that can't go. In addition, a lot is excluded. Some of these many projects as well as Friendica make an effort and translate a great deal and you can really be grateful to these people. But that's a drop on the iceberg. For example, I have a transport company that is still up and running, but I've been broke long ago. On the one hand, I got into this banking crisis and haven't seen my money from Spain and Greece until today. But as is well known, money is not everything in the world. And I hope that they get it the same way. And then in the early 90s I even built the first Joomla and WP stuff, i.e. a website for my transport company. And expanded like a transport exchange and many more. I'm also good from the first web design, which was ripped off. Well, and at that point in time, English has always bothered me. In addition, I had the same accident a day later, only with my bike. And I had to do a lot to bring some things back together. And the software helped me with that, and it still does today. In the past, when the first Commodore were out there or back then the first 386DX or 486 DX 40 and many more, I was lucky enough to get a few computers. A whole network. In addition, many students and friends came to visit and learned something about the DOS level and Windows and the first Open-Suse with a lot of floppy disks. I think today I would have finally managed to install the whole thing. Yes, today, definitely. Because I run Linux everywhere and I even flashed my cell phones like that. And so I am today because I live on the basic salary of just under € 800, so I can and want to let off steam here on the internet. And often it fails because of the English. Therefore there is a reason why I only use Debian, A the best largest German community and they do a lot and stable and they don't always have to be the latest craze. Hence Debian and books you get a lot too. But it's more fun in the community and I criticize that. Since the Qwell code is the same for everyone, why should only English be in the foreground?
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rion
wtf? ^
lovetox
i really have to restrain myself to not click on the link
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Martin
I didn't read all but I'm already puzzled.
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Martin
But now I know Germany is a wiki which will soon be switched off.
lovetox
its all in there the whole history of computers
lovetox
commodore, dos, windows, linux, debian
lovetox
flopy disk, opensuse, internet ..
Martin
Where will I live after switching off? Anyone offering me asylum? I like Sweden. ;)
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eta
hahahaha
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theTedd
that looks like someone testing a GPT-3 model (it generates convincing text, but the subject drifts almost as bad as a certain president; so arguably, it is realistic)