jdev - 2020-09-18

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  178. lovetox the more i think about it the more i have the opinion that i don’t need scrollback MAM requests
  179. lovetox for the own account, i simply download the whole archive at start or user request
  180. lovetox for the own account, i simply download the whole archive at start or only on user request
  181. lovetox and for MUCs, there are small private MUCs, where you just download everything since last join
  182. lovetox the only place where such a scrollback feature would maybe make sense, are bigger open mucs
  183. eta lovetox, I mean I think it'
  184. eta oops
  185. eta lovetox, I think it's a question of priority
  186. eta like, yeah, I think synchronizing the full MAM archive is the way to go
  187. eta but synchronize the personal MAM archive before synchronizing any MUCs, then do small private MUCs, then do big MUCs
  188. eta the first two types of synchronization are "blocking", and usually must complete before the app is usable
  189. eta synchronizing the bigger MUCs can happen in a background job with low priority (i.e. don't slow the app down to do them)
  190. Ge0rG blocking is always a bad idea
  191. lovetox download in the background with low priority is easy said but really hard done
  192. eta Ge0rG, I used quotes for a reason, right
  193. eta I meant more from a UI/UX perspective more than anything else
  194. Ge0rG eta: you should try to use XMPP on a typical German mobile "broadband" connection, while sitting on the regional train in the middle of nowhere
  195. lovetox you would need to analyse the traffic, and then slowly start issuing requests and stop them when you exceed some traffic limit
  196. lovetox very complex stuff
  197. Ge0rG open a second XMPP connection ;)
  198. Ge0rG or maybe XMPP over HTTP/2
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  201. Ge0rG the fun part is when the data you requested is so large that it exceeds your server's 0198 queue size and your session gets killed
  202. Ge0rG and then you reconnect and request the same data again
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  207. eta lovetox, okay, fair enough
  208. eta lovetox, the ordering thing is still valid though
  209. eta or, hmm, maybe not
  210. lovetox eta i would say the order does not matter, except when the user switches to a chat
  211. lovetox then stop everything else, and do that one
  212. eta lovetox, yeah, that's good
  213. lovetox this is relatively easy
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  224. eta lovetox, by far the biggest issue I think currently though is notifications
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  226. eta on pretty much every client doing a MAM catchup results in loads of unread messages that you've actually read somewhere else
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  230. eta and it makes the unread list pretty useless as a result
  231. Zash This!
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  234. lovetox hard to solve problem
  235. lovetox i dont like the idea to push a read-message-id to the server for any message i receive
  236. eta lovetox, fwiw this is why I have to use dino instead of gajim even though I'd rather use gajim
  237. eta because dino at least sorts the chats by last message
  238. eta so it's not a total loss
  239. Zash ... but Dino does the same thing if you haven't had it running for a while, or on first startup
  240. eta with gajim there are like 100 chats all with 50 unreads and it's like, which one of those do I click on
  241. eta e*
  242. Zash bazillions of notifications
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  245. eta Zash, sure but it's less of an issue because I don't rely on the unread state for anything
  246. eta with gajim I need the unread state to tell me "hey click on this window, there's activity"
  247. eta lovetox, I mean, you already send a smacks ack for every message you receive...
  248. lovetox that does not mean read though
  249. Ge0rG eta: yaxim will mark all conversations as read to which you have replied from any of your clients. ;)
  250. eta also it wouldn't be every message you receive, just every message you receive while the chat is focused
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  252. Ge0rG also it will queue pending outging 0184 ACKs and only send one if there isn't one already in MAM
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  254. Zash At least delaying notifications until the whole sync thing has completed would be an improvement
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  257. eta Ge0rG, it will and this is nice! however (a) that doesn't deal with situations where I didn't reply but still read it on another device, and (b) to clear the freaking unread marker I have to scroll *all the way* up
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  260. eta my hacky gajim fork at one point just unconditionally sent 0184 displayed markers for every single message
  261. Zash I also miss the "Mark all chats as read" option from Yaxim in all other clients :)
  262. Ge0rG eta: that's unfortunate
  263. Zash eta: itym 333
  264. eta and that was actually really pleasant, but obviously leaked everything
  265. eta Zash, probably ;)
  266. eta contemplates just writing a prosody module to carbon, but not actually send, displayed chat markers if they're sent in a large MUC
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  268. eta (and then hacks to dino/gajim/convos to unconditionally send such markers)
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  271. eta I feel like as solutions go though, that's not a terrible one
  272. eta although OTOH it wouldn't work well if the other clients weren't online
  273. eta so it's a hack
  274. Zash eta: There's one that's almost that. It could do something sensible wrt channel vs private group chats
  275. eta Zash, is this the marker tracking one
  276. Zash looks it up
  277. Zash I'm thinking of https://modules.prosody.im/mod_muc_markers.html
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  280. eta yeah, that
  281. eta Zash, does that work for remote MUCs?
  282. Zash Moves chat markers into a separate store from MAM, so there's only one per user
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  285. eta doesn't look like it
  286. Zash Well it needs to run in the MUC itsel
  287. Zash Well it needs to run in the MUC itself, so probably no
  288. eta yeah okay, so that doesn't quite do what I want
  289. Zash You could probably do something like it locally but I imagine there'll be all sorts of fun"
  290. eta eh, or we just go back to the idea of using pubsub or something
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  294. eta publish to a PEP node whenever you read a new message
  295. eta still doesn't actually understand how conversations does its notification-suppressing magic
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  302. Zash Ask the code or Daniel. I think it does magic when it sees messages from yourself.
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  388. lovetox but do we have even a theoretical approach for the readstate sync in MUCs problem
  389. lovetox i dont think its a solution that a MUC with 100 people, and every message to the MUC triggers 100 read markers sent to the MUC
  390. lovetox that just doesnt scale
  391. Zash Hence server-side magic that records that, broadcasts it only to your own devices.
  392. lovetox still not scaleable
  393. Zash Why?
  394. lovetox because one message triggers hundreads
  395. lovetox if 100 people chat, you have 10.000 messages
  396. lovetox if you have 100 MUCs on your server
  397. lovetox that just adds up exponentially
  398. Zash I said > broadcasts it only to your own devices.
  399. Zash So in this case there would be like 200 messages
  400. lovetox what do you broadcast?
  401. Zash The read marker
  402. lovetox i have to first tell the MUC that i read the message or?
  403. Zash Not broadcast, but rather only reflect it back to you (and your phone)
  404. Zash This is already how it works
  405. lovetox point is i have to tell the muc
  406. Zash I'm describing a traffic optimization for larger groupchats
  407. lovetox if 100 people tell the MUC, its 1 message triggers 100 to the server
  408. lovetox i think the solution needs to happen on the user server
  409. lovetox not on the MUC server
  410. Zash Doable.
  411. Zash If you reuse 333 syntax then the client doesn't even need to know the difference.
  412. lovetox maybe use 333, but add a element, like <server-only>, so the server does not route it to the remote host for MUCs
  413. Zash But there's still 100 read notifications sent somewhere.
  414. lovetox yeah Zash but distributed over 100 servers
  415. lovetox as it should be
  416. lovetox ok the server keeps then a list with tuples (jid, message-id)
  417. lovetox does not help us much for mam
  418. lovetox hm ..
  419. lovetox ah no should work
  420. Zash and then use that as basis for offline message replay instead of MAM!
  421. lovetox the only problem i see with this is, that the list of (jid, message-id) grows endless
  422. lovetox maybe some cleanup can be made from time to time, like if no readmarker was sent for 6 months for a jid
  423. lovetox but good thing is also its not terrible sensible data
  424. Zash Do you need to save more than one per JID?
  425. lovetox if its lost, client gets a few notifications more
  426. Zash Doesn't this kind of thing only need to be a forward-moving pointer per JID?
  427. Zash And then the set of (jid, id) tuples wouldn't be much larger than your roster + bookmarks
  428. Zash And then the set of (jid, id) tuples wouldn't be much larger than your roster + MUC/MIX bookmarks
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  430. Zash Keeping such tuples a bit longer than the MAM retention period shouldn't be a problem
  431. lovetox yeah but sometimes mam is forever
  432. lovetox MUCs count grows over time
  433. lovetox but yeah ok its solveable thing
  434. Zash If you do have infinite MAM then that's going to be the bigger problem anyways.
  435. Zash JID and message ids aren't that large compared to stanzas
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  442. lovetox i see it mainly from a, i have to query it at start perspective
  443. lovetox if it can grow infinitly we need paging etc etc
  444. lovetox more roundtrips etc
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  475. carrabelloy Hello everyone and have a wonderful good evening with everyone and thank you very much for the inclusion at loma node. I didn't want to stay long either, but since I've installed everything on my server and I can't get into the system https://treff.darknight-coffee.org/friendica. I had to go this way. And I am very grateful that it worked out so quickly because it is private social networks. The other aspect is that it is a very good idea, but such platforms are, or are, to blame for the fact that they are so little heard or used so little. What do you find in German? A small wiki that you want to turn off at the end of the month. What else did I find on the YouTube channel? A small video that shows how you can create your profile here and upload a picture. My goodness how ridiculous that is. Then a couple of good blogs to convey to people what decentralized servers or better said home cloud is and means. Because not everyone wants to deal with the technology. Which can and should be pretty clear. Because not everyone does the same job or the same studies or anything else. The start page is also a joke from Friendica again, unfortunately, although the idea and many ideas that are developed and added in the open source world are good. But why does it all have to continue in English or just? With 500 million people this is a sign of poverty if you calculate that a quarter of them speak German, like Austria, Switzerland, Belgium, which among the Belgians is divided into French and German because there are the Walloons and the Flemings. Then the Netherlands, where some speak Dutch and German. And then Germany itself, where another 83 or even now almost 85 million citizens live. And what about these people, if you take a closer look at the statistics or ask around, it is not that everyone speaks English or even wants to. Just like me as well. I've never really been interested in English, and I never had it at school before. School was expensive back then. And one more aspect, I am more into the German language in general. And that is being pushed aside by this diversity and globalization. I've always been interested in software, and I've been interested in software for years when our government has completely overslept Ms. Merkel for the last 15 years. Now that it's getting tricky, everything has to be implemented very quickly. But what do you want from the young, broad society who like to shop and the older ones have absolutely no idea about software and technology. Soory that can't go. In addition, a lot is excluded. Some of these many projects as well as Friendica make an effort and translate a great deal and you can really be grateful to these people. But that's a drop on the iceberg. For example, I have a transport company that is still up and running, but I've been broke long ago. On the one hand, I got into this banking crisis and haven't seen my money from Spain and Greece until today. But as is well known, money is not everything in the world. And I hope that they get it the same way. And then in the early 90s I even built the first Joomla and WP stuff, i.e. a website for my transport company. And expanded like a transport exchange and many more. I'm also good from the first web design, which was ripped off. Well, and at that point in time, English has always bothered me. In addition, I had the same accident a day later, only with my bike. And I had to do a lot to bring some things back together. And the software helped me with that, and it still does today. In the past, when the first Commodore were out there or back then the first 386DX or 486 DX 40 and many more, I was lucky enough to get a few computers. A whole network. In addition, many students and friends came to visit and learned something about the DOS level and Windows and the first Open-Suse with a lot of floppy disks. I think today I would have finally managed to install the whole thing. Yes, today, definitely. Because I run Linux everywhere and I even flashed my cell phones like that. And so I am today because I live on the basic salary of just under € 800, so I can and want to let off steam here on the internet. And often it fails because of the English. Therefore there is a reason why I only use Debian, A the best largest German community and they do a lot and stable and they don't always have to be the latest craze. Hence Debian and books you get a lot too. But it's more fun in the community and I criticize that. Since the Qwell code is the same for everyone, why should only English be in the foreground?
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  479. rion wtf? ^
  480. lovetox i really have to restrain myself to not click on the link
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  482. Martin I didn't read all but I'm already puzzled.
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  484. Martin But now I know Germany is a wiki which will soon be switched off.
  485. lovetox its all in there the whole history of computers
  486. lovetox commodore, dos, windows, linux, debian
  487. lovetox flopy disk, opensuse, internet ..
  488. Martin Where will I live after switching off? Anyone offering me asylum? I like Sweden. ;)
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  490. eta hahahaha
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  494. theTedd that looks like someone testing a GPT-3 model (it generates convincing text, but the subject drifts almost as bad as a certain president; so arguably, it is realistic)
  495. Zash President Markov III?
  496. theTedd maybe his nephew
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