jdev - 2020-11-03


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  274. SouL

    Regarding Message Fastenings https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0422.html what if the message one wants to apply-to has only origin-id and not stanza-id? Does one use origin-id? https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0422.html What if it has both? Which id one should use to attach-to? stanza-id?

  275. flow

    my stance is that one can only reasonably attach to stanza-id using both the ID value and the value of 'by'

  276. flow

    note that there could be multiple <stanza-id/> extensions

  277. flow

    but at most one <stanza-id/> with the same by value

  278. flow

    but at most one <stanza-id/> with the same 'by' value

  279. flow

    I also guess that you usually want to use the <stanza-id/> that was added by the service arbitrating the messages of the particular conversation. that is, use the MUC by if it's a MUC, and not the 'by' of your user account (archive)

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  285. SouL

    Regarding Message Fastenings https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0422.html what if the message one wants to apply-to has only origin-id and not stanza-id? Does one use origin-id? https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0359.html What if it has both? Which id one should use to attach-to? stanza-id?

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  291. Holger

    SouL: Doesn't it already say "origin-id" (first sentence of #3.1)?

  292. Holger

    Though I thought origin-id was supposed to die!

  293. Ge0rG

    Holger: there is no consensus on that :(

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  296. flow

    I don't think missing consensus wrt the death or life or origin-id is the problem here. But Holger is right, xep422 § 3.1 specifies origin-id as anchor

  297. flow

    Even though I think it is dangerous, as it allows malicous entities to add duplicate, with respect to origin-id, messages into an archive, which makes fastening/attaching harder (select oldest message in case of duplicate origin-id?)

  298. Ge0rG

    I think we have a number of XEPs that use some sort of id to reference other stanzas, and that have different and conflicting rules on which id to use with which priority

  299. flow

    Even though I think it is dangerous, as it allows malicious entities to add duplicate, with respect to origin-id, messages into an archive, which makes fastening/attaching harder (select oldest message in case of duplicate origin-id?)

  300. Ge0rG

    like 0184, which we are probably not going to get "fixed" anyway.

  301. flow

    Ge0rG, could you name one?

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  303. flow

    does xep184 mention xep359 at all?

  304. Ge0rG

    flow: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0333.html#rules-muc

  305. Holger

    I think 0333 uses the RFC 6120 ID except when it uses the 0359 stanza ID.

  306. Holger

    Heh, that.

  307. flow

    ahh ok, yes xep333, but is there another one besides that?

  308. flow

    but a search for "0359" in xep184 does not yield an results, so I am not sure about any different/conflicting rules there

  309. flow

    but a search for "0359" in xep184 does not yield any results, so I am not sure about any different/conflicting rules there

  310. Holger

    Because it uses the 6120 ID, no?

  311. Ge0rG

    flow: a XEP that references messages without using 0359 by definition has conflicting rules to a XEP that does

  312. flow

    Holger, exactly, at the time xep184 was written, xep359 did not exist

  313. Holger

    Right.

  314. flow

    Ge0rG, not sure where the conflict origins from?

  315. Ge0rG

    https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0424.html#rules

  316. Ge0rG

    https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0444.html#sending-reactions

  317. flow

    there are sure different rules about "referencing IDs"

  318. flow

    but hopefully there are no conflicting rules

  319. Ge0rG

    different _is_ conflicting

  320. flow

    yeah ok, if you think so. I would use the term "conflicting" if it where not possible to implement and use both approaches at the same time

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  322. Ge0rG

    I just think it would make sense to have a separate "The Art Of Message Referencing" XEP, that would be Standards Track and that all the others can reference for stanza referencing rules

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  324. flow

    that I could very well agree with

  325. flow

    but I guess we don't have such a thing because nobody wrote a draft for discussion

  326. flow

    I am mostly concered that <origin-id/> is the wrong ID to use a anchor for referencing, amongst other things because of the reason mentioned above

  327. flow

    I am mostly concered that <origin-id/> is the wrong ID to use as anchor for referencing, amongst other things because of the reason mentioned above

  328. Ge0rG

    I am concerned that <origin-id/> shouldn't have existed in the first place

  329. flow

    I honestly wonder why? While others also seem to like it that much that they use it for referencing

  330. Ge0rG

    because I'm on a quest to fix message @id

  331. flow

    ok, but even if you (successfully) worked on a better fix for the MUC reflection issue, that does not automatically mean that you have to condem everything else more-or-less related?

  332. flow

    I mean sure, origin-id originated more-or-less from the same issue, but that does not mean that it has not value in other areas too

  333. flow

    I mean sure, origin-id originated more-or-less from the same issue, but that does not mean that it has no value in other areas too

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  337. Ge0rG

    flow: I know that we disagree on that, and I still fail to see that value.

  338. flow

    Ge0rG, ok, but you also see no active harm either, right? You may see passive harm in something being specified that has no value, akin to dead code in your codebase, that you typically want to get rid of. But I don't hink that dead code is our main issue within the XMPP specificiation zoo

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  340. Ge0rG

    flow: it's not only dead specification and dead code but also dead XML on the wire

  341. Ge0rG

    and it's adding ambiguity because you now have at least three different IDs for a single message

  342. Ge0rG

    flow: which is also why I still insist on "The origin-id value MUST be equal to the stanza's @id attribute"

  343. flow

    I don't see how specifying that "origin-id == stanza @id" is sensible, you could simply omit the stanza id then

  344. Ge0rG

    As I said before, I don't see any value in signalling "I'm really generating unique stanza IDs", as the receiving entity must be able to do a graceful degradation anyway.

  345. Ge0rG

    flow: you could simply omit the origin-id then.

  346. flow

    I don't see how specifying that "origin-id == stanza @id" is sensible, you could simply omit the origin-id then

  347. flow

    exactly

  348. flow

    (see my correction)

  349. Ge0rG

    Well, then why is it even specified? ;)

  350. flow

    arguing that dead XML on the wire is bad, while also arguing that origin-id should have the same value as something else within the same stanza is inconclusive

  351. Ge0rG

    flow: well, stream compression will allow to reduce the length then :P

  352. Ge0rG

    </s>

  353. Ge0rG

    flow: just remove <origin-id/> altogether and we are fine again :P

  354. Ge0rG

    My order of preference is: 1. No <origin-id/> ... ... ... 2. origin-id = @id 3. As it is now

  355. Ge0rG

    In terms of Council decisions that would probably be something like +1 / 0 / -1.

  356. Ge0rG

    (now would be a good time to vote me out!)

  357. Zash

    Ge0rG, you think 3 IDs are bad? I noted a week ago or something a message that had FIVE IDs, not counting @id

  358. Ge0rG

    Zash: that's quite a feat

  359. Zash

    Altho two were timestamps. (the same timestamp in different formats)

  360. Ge0rG

    timestamps are not ids

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