jdev - 2020-11-03


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  274. SouL Regarding Message Fastenings https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0422.html what if the message one wants to apply-to has only origin-id and not stanza-id? Does one use origin-id? https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0422.html What if it has both? Which id one should use to attach-to? stanza-id?
  275. flow my stance is that one can only reasonably attach to stanza-id using both the ID value and the value of 'by'
  276. flow note that there could be multiple <stanza-id/> extensions
  277. flow but at most one <stanza-id/> with the same by value
  278. flow but at most one <stanza-id/> with the same 'by' value
  279. flow I also guess that you usually want to use the <stanza-id/> that was added by the service arbitrating the messages of the particular conversation. that is, use the MUC by if it's a MUC, and not the 'by' of your user account (archive)
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  285. SouL Regarding Message Fastenings https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0422.html what if the message one wants to apply-to has only origin-id and not stanza-id? Does one use origin-id? https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0359.html What if it has both? Which id one should use to attach-to? stanza-id?
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  291. Holger SouL: Doesn't it already say "origin-id" (first sentence of #3.1)?
  292. Holger Though I thought origin-id was supposed to die!
  293. Ge0rG Holger: there is no consensus on that :(
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  296. flow I don't think missing consensus wrt the death or life or origin-id is the problem here. But Holger is right, xep422 § 3.1 specifies origin-id as anchor
  297. flow Even though I think it is dangerous, as it allows malicous entities to add duplicate, with respect to origin-id, messages into an archive, which makes fastening/attaching harder (select oldest message in case of duplicate origin-id?)
  298. Ge0rG I think we have a number of XEPs that use some sort of id to reference other stanzas, and that have different and conflicting rules on which id to use with which priority
  299. flow Even though I think it is dangerous, as it allows malicious entities to add duplicate, with respect to origin-id, messages into an archive, which makes fastening/attaching harder (select oldest message in case of duplicate origin-id?)
  300. Ge0rG like 0184, which we are probably not going to get "fixed" anyway.
  301. flow Ge0rG, could you name one?
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  303. flow does xep184 mention xep359 at all?
  304. Ge0rG flow: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0333.html#rules-muc
  305. Holger I think 0333 uses the RFC 6120 ID except when it uses the 0359 stanza ID.
  306. Holger Heh, that.
  307. flow ahh ok, yes xep333, but is there another one besides that?
  308. flow but a search for "0359" in xep184 does not yield an results, so I am not sure about any different/conflicting rules there
  309. flow but a search for "0359" in xep184 does not yield any results, so I am not sure about any different/conflicting rules there
  310. Holger Because it uses the 6120 ID, no?
  311. Ge0rG flow: a XEP that references messages without using 0359 by definition has conflicting rules to a XEP that does
  312. flow Holger, exactly, at the time xep184 was written, xep359 did not exist
  313. Holger Right.
  314. flow Ge0rG, not sure where the conflict origins from?
  315. Ge0rG https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0424.html#rules
  316. Ge0rG https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0444.html#sending-reactions
  317. flow there are sure different rules about "referencing IDs"
  318. flow but hopefully there are no conflicting rules
  319. Ge0rG different _is_ conflicting
  320. flow yeah ok, if you think so. I would use the term "conflicting" if it where not possible to implement and use both approaches at the same time
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  322. Ge0rG I just think it would make sense to have a separate "The Art Of Message Referencing" XEP, that would be Standards Track and that all the others can reference for stanza referencing rules
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  324. flow that I could very well agree with
  325. flow but I guess we don't have such a thing because nobody wrote a draft for discussion
  326. flow I am mostly concered that <origin-id/> is the wrong ID to use a anchor for referencing, amongst other things because of the reason mentioned above
  327. flow I am mostly concered that <origin-id/> is the wrong ID to use as anchor for referencing, amongst other things because of the reason mentioned above
  328. Ge0rG I am concerned that <origin-id/> shouldn't have existed in the first place
  329. flow I honestly wonder why? While others also seem to like it that much that they use it for referencing
  330. Ge0rG because I'm on a quest to fix message @id
  331. flow ok, but even if you (successfully) worked on a better fix for the MUC reflection issue, that does not automatically mean that you have to condem everything else more-or-less related?
  332. flow I mean sure, origin-id originated more-or-less from the same issue, but that does not mean that it has not value in other areas too
  333. flow I mean sure, origin-id originated more-or-less from the same issue, but that does not mean that it has no value in other areas too
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  337. Ge0rG flow: I know that we disagree on that, and I still fail to see that value.
  338. flow Ge0rG, ok, but you also see no active harm either, right? You may see passive harm in something being specified that has no value, akin to dead code in your codebase, that you typically want to get rid of. But I don't hink that dead code is our main issue within the XMPP specificiation zoo
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  340. Ge0rG flow: it's not only dead specification and dead code but also dead XML on the wire
  341. Ge0rG and it's adding ambiguity because you now have at least three different IDs for a single message
  342. Ge0rG flow: which is also why I still insist on "The origin-id value MUST be equal to the stanza's @id attribute"
  343. flow I don't see how specifying that "origin-id == stanza @id" is sensible, you could simply omit the stanza id then
  344. Ge0rG As I said before, I don't see any value in signalling "I'm really generating unique stanza IDs", as the receiving entity must be able to do a graceful degradation anyway.
  345. Ge0rG flow: you could simply omit the origin-id then.
  346. flow I don't see how specifying that "origin-id == stanza @id" is sensible, you could simply omit the origin-id then
  347. flow exactly
  348. flow (see my correction)
  349. Ge0rG Well, then why is it even specified? ;)
  350. flow arguing that dead XML on the wire is bad, while also arguing that origin-id should have the same value as something else within the same stanza is inconclusive
  351. Ge0rG flow: well, stream compression will allow to reduce the length then :P
  352. Ge0rG </s>
  353. Ge0rG flow: just remove <origin-id/> altogether and we are fine again :P
  354. Ge0rG My order of preference is: 1. No <origin-id/> ... ... ... 2. origin-id = @id 3. As it is now
  355. Ge0rG In terms of Council decisions that would probably be something like +1 / 0 / -1.
  356. Ge0rG (now would be a good time to vote me out!)
  357. Zash Ge0rG, you think 3 IDs are bad? I noted a week ago or something a message that had FIVE IDs, not counting @id
  358. Ge0rG Zash: that's quite a feat
  359. Zash Altho two were timestamps. (the same timestamp in different formats)
  360. Ge0rG timestamps are not ids
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