jdev - 2020-11-07

  1. debacle has joined

  2. xecks has left

  3. debacle has left

  4. Wojtek has left

  5. wurstsalat has left

  6. Ge0rG has left

  7. defanor has left

  8. DebXWoody has joined

  9. Guus has left

  10. Guus has joined

  11. lovetox has joined

  12. Yagizа has joined

  13. mac has joined

  14. eta has left

  15. eta has joined

  16. Martin has left

  17. Martin has joined

  18. adrien has left

  19. wurstsalat has joined

  20. Ge0rG has joined

  21. moparisthebest has left

  22. adrien has joined

  23. DebXWoody has left

  24. moparisthebest has joined

  25. adrien has left

  26. adrien has joined

  27. pulkomandy has left

  28. pulkomandy has joined

  29. mac has left

  30. xecks has joined

  31. lovetox has left

  32. adrien has left

  33. adrien has joined

  34. ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo has joined

  35. ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo has left

  36. pulkomandy has left

  37. pulkomandy has joined

  38. jonnj has left

  39. debacle has joined

  40. ralphm has left

  41. ralphm has joined

  42. jonnj has joined

  43. lovetox has joined

  44. debacle has left

  45. DebXWoody has joined

  46. edhelas has left

  47. edhelas has joined

  48. debacle has joined

  49. debacle has left

  50. debacle has joined

  51. moparisthebest has left

  52. debacle has left

  53. debacle has joined

  54. debacle has left

  55. lovetox has left

  56. kikuchiyo has left

  57. kikuchiyo has joined

  58. kikuchiyo has left

  59. alacer has left

  60. kikuchiyo has joined

  61. kikuchiyo has left

  62. lovetox has joined

  63. kikuchiyo has joined

  64. kikuchiyo has left

  65. lovetox has left

  66. kikuchiyo has joined

  67. kikuchiyo has left

  68. kikuchiyo has joined

  69. kikuchiyo has left

  70. kikuchiyo has joined

  71. kikuchiyo has left

  72. kikuchiyo has joined

  73. kikuchiyo has left

  74. kikuchiyo has joined

  75. kikuchiyo has left

  76. kikuchiyo has joined

  77. alacer has joined

  78. goffi has joined

  79. Beherit has left

  80. Beherit has joined

  81. lovetox has joined

  82. alacer has left

  83. moparisthebest has joined

  84. mac has joined

  85. alacer has joined

  86. debacle has joined

  87. alex-a-soto has joined

  88. alex-a-soto has left

  89. alex-a-soto has joined

  90. alex-a-soto has left

  91. alex-a-soto has joined

  92. mac has left

  93. debacle has left

  94. debacle has joined

  95. kikuchiyo has left

  96. kikuchiyo has joined

  97. kikuchiyo has left

  98. kikuchiyo has joined

  99. kikuchiyo has left

  100. kikuchiyo has joined

  101. kikuchiyo has left

  102. kikuchiyo has joined

  103. kikuchiyo has left

  104. kikuchiyo has joined

  105. kikuchiyo has left

  106. goffi has left

  107. kikuchiyo has joined

  108. kikuchiyo has left

  109. kikuchiyo has joined

  110. kikuchiyo has left

  111. kikuchiyo has joined

  112. kikuchiyo has left

  113. sonny has left

  114. sonny has joined

  115. sonny has left

  116. sonny has joined

  117. kikuchiyo has joined

  118. kikuchiyo has left

  119. kikuchiyo has joined

  120. kikuchiyo has left

  121. kikuchiyo has joined

  122. kikuchiyo has left

  123. kikuchiyo has joined

  124. kikuchiyo has left

  125. kikuchiyo has joined

  126. kikuchiyo has left

  127. kikuchiyo has joined

  128. kikuchiyo has left

  129. kikuchiyo has joined

  130. kikuchiyo has left

  131. kikuchiyo has joined

  132. kikuchiyo has left

  133. kikuchiyo has joined

  134. kikuchiyo has left

  135. kikuchiyo has joined

  136. kikuchiyo has left

  137. Beherit has left

  138. Beherit has joined

  139. floretta has left

  140. alacer has left

  141. kikuchiyo has joined

  142. kikuchiyo has left

  143. test2 has joined

  144. kikuchiyo has joined

  145. kikuchiyo has left

  146. marmistrz has left

  147. test2 has left

  148. kikuchiyo has joined

  149. kikuchiyo has left

  150. kikuchiyo has joined

  151. kikuchiyo has left

  152. kikuchiyo has joined

  153. kikuchiyo has left

  154. marmistrz has joined

  155. kikuchiyo has joined

  156. kikuchiyo has left

  157. Yagizа has left

  158. kikuchiyo has joined

  159. kikuchiyo has left

  160. kikuchiyo has joined

  161. kikuchiyo has left

  162. test2 has joined

  163. DebXWoody has left

  164. kikuchiyo has joined

  165. kikuchiyo has left

  166. kikuchiyo has joined

  167. kikuchiyo has left

  168. kikuchiyo has joined

  169. kikuchiyo has left

  170. kikuchiyo has joined

  171. kikuchiyo has left

  172. test2 has left

  173. kikuchiyo has joined

  174. kikuchiyo has left

  175. kikuchiyo has joined

  176. kikuchiyo has left

  177. test2 has joined

  178. kikuchiyo has joined

  179. kikuchiyo has left

  180. test2 has left

  181. marmistrz has left

  182. marmistrz has joined

  183. floretta has joined

  184. kikuchiyo has joined

  185. kikuchiyo has left

  186. kikuchiyo has joined

  187. kikuchiyo has left

  188. lovetox

    hm that avatar conversion XEP did not really think about clients that want to support vcards

  189. lovetox

    it seems the thought was, vcard is only used by legacy clients so they set their avatar with the vcard and we convert it

  190. Zash

    do we need a XEP about the thing Prosody does with vcard-temp → vcard4 conversion?

  191. lovetox

    but how do is set a avatar, if i want to support vcard and iam not a legacy client

  192. Zash

    Use XEP-0084?

  193. kikuchiyo has joined

  194. kikuchiyo has left

  195. lovetox

    yeah i just did

  196. lovetox

    and what happens is, i publish with 0084, afterwards publish my vcard

  197. lovetox

    ups my avatar is gone now

  198. lovetox

    no i have to now publish my avatar with 0084 and at the same time have to put it into the vcard

  199. Zash


  200. lovetox

    and all because of anonymous mucs

  201. lovetox

    we really should have gone the way, yeah anonymous means anonymous, so no vcard, no avatar, nothing

  202. lovetox

    thats what anonymous means

  203. Zash

    to be pedantic, we already got rid of anonymous mucs, what we have is semi-anonymous :)

  204. lovetox

    omg i want to deactivate that conversion

  205. xecks has left

  206. Zash

    With Prosody, you can. Tho you may get nice enough behavior by publishing vcard as vcard4 instead of vcard-temp

  207. lovetox

    why because there is no conversion yet?

  208. kikuchiyo has joined

  209. kikuchiyo has left

  210. lovetox

    actually i want to switch to vcard 4

  211. lovetox

    but we dont need conversion there really do we?

  212. lovetox

    a client that supports vcard 4 is not legacy, and can do his own avatar publishing

  213. Zash

    Interop with legacy clients

  214. lovetox

    yeah but for example i want to publish my vcard 4 with access=presence

  215. lovetox

    but my avatar with access=open

  216. Zash

    You can, if you talk PEP directly

  217. lovetox

    yes i know i can

  218. lovetox

    but what does the conversion mod then?

  219. Zash


  220. Zash

    The prosody legacy vcard compat module syntesizes a vcard-temp from vcard4+pep avatar on request.

  221. Zash

    And it respects the access modes on each of those, so if you configure the vcard with access=presence you get a vcard-temp with only the avatar.

  222. kikuchiyo has joined

  223. kikuchiyo has left

  224. lovetox

    ok thats nice

  225. Zash

    It is a problem that you have no way of knowing this tho

  226. lovetox

    and is there a conversion happening from vcard4 -> pep avatar?

  227. Zash

    There are older vcard compat modules that only re-publish the avatar but it's still vcard-temp natively

  228. Zash


  229. lovetox

    ok thats good

  230. lovetox

    mental note, never implement something like that

  231. lovetox

    ok so that means

  232. lovetox

    i can use vcard4 and publish my vcard without avatar

  233. lovetox

    and the server will not delete my 0084 avatar

  234. lovetox

    thank god !

  235. Zash

    Hehe, part of the goal of this was to make vcard4 more attractive :)

  236. lovetox

    vcard4 is attractive enough only because of the fact that you can make the data private

  237. Beherit has left

  238. Zash

    Yeah, that is nice

  239. lovetox

    ok thanks, means more work needs to be done now, but at least there is a sane path

  240. Zash

    Maybe the lack of privacy controls in vcard-temp is why so many clients these days only use it for teh avatar

  241. Link Mauve

    My issue with vcard4 is that it still isn’t fine-grained enough.

  242. Beherit has joined

  243. Link Mauve

    It’s either available to some entity or not.

  244. Zash

    I think that's an issue with PEP as a whole

  245. Link Mauve


  246. Zash

    And maybe PubSub

  247. Link Mauve

    goffi added an extension to fix that in his server, but he never wrote the spec.

  248. Zash

    oneSocialWeb had something like this as well

  249. lovetox

    Link Mauve, why there is whitelist or not?

  250. lovetox

    but to be honest, it seems a bit too complex for the normal user to manage who can see his vcard

  251. kikuchiyo has joined

  252. kikuchiyo has left

  253. Link Mauve

    lovetox, for instance I might want my email address shared with all my contacts, but my home phone number only with the family group, and the work phone number only with the work group.

  254. lovetox


  255. lovetox

    ok thats insane

  256. Zash

    If the prosody vcard/avatar conversion mod finds that the requester does not have access to the vcard4 node, it checks if they can read the nickname node and if so, adds that to the vcard-temp

  257. Link Mauve

    lovetox, instead of insane, I’d say mandatory for most usecases.

  258. lovetox

    you want per field access

  259. Link Mauve

    Yes, pretty much.

  260. lovetox

    i just think about the UI, and i would not even want to start it :)

  261. Link Mauve

    Try https://linkmauve.fr/xmpp-account-manager/build/en/ for a UI example.

  262. lovetox

    it shows a loading icon

  263. lovetox

    then nothing happens

  264. lovetox

    ah wait

  265. lovetox

    jid was wrong

  266. kikuchiyo has joined

  267. kikuchiyo has left

  268. defanor has joined

  269. defanor has left

  270. lovetox

    but its probably not hard to do with vcard4

  271. lovetox

    you can add a custom attribute <roster-group> to the items

  272. lovetox

    and then the server has to do the rest

  273. Beherit has left

  274. test2 has joined

  275. test2 has left

  276. xecks has joined

  277. Zash

    IFF the server advertises support

  278. lovetox has left

  279. defanor has joined

  280. defanor has left

  281. defanor has joined

  282. defanor has left

  283. Zash

    lovetox, seen this thread? https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2020-February/037073.html

  284. lovetox has joined

  285. lovetox

    hm xep 0292 does not use pep?

  286. lovetox

    i always thought the IQ is just a legacy access method

  287. lovetox

    but we use pubsub for vcard4

  288. lovetox

    i wondered about this a few times

  289. lovetox

    i just publish the vcard4 to pubsub

  290. lovetox

    i dont use the IQ

  291. Zash

    The iq was added for the MUC use case.

  292. Zash

    Except, it doesn't work.

  293. lovetox

    community consensus is that storage via IQ is more backward-compatible with XEP-0054, and that publish-subscribe is more appropriate only for event notifications.

  294. Zash

    vcard-temp only works in MUC because of an undocumented hack that all servers implement.

  295. lovetox

    i interpret this sentence as "You should not publish a vcard via pubsub, use IQ "

  296. Zash

    So you would need to do the same for vcard4 and/or PEP

  297. Zash

    The Prosody mod_vcard4 is just a very thin layer over the PEP get/set methods.

  298. floretta has left

  299. lovetox

    ok so thats what i thought, i just use pubsub, and it should work as expected

  300. kikuchiyo has joined

  301. kikuchiyo has left

  302. Zash

    It can act as a bandwidth optimization I suppose.

  303. Zash

    Or if you have a client that does not support PEP (are there even any?) then it's probably easier to use the vcard4 iq

  304. lovetox

    vcards are rarley changed, so there is no need to be efficient

  305. debacle has left

  306. Zash

    https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0292.html#self-iq-retrieval vs https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0060.html#subscriber-retrieve-requestall

  307. Zash

    So, yeah, not much of a difference

  308. debacle has joined

  309. debacle has left

  310. debacle has joined

  311. kikuchiyo has joined

  312. kikuchiyo has left

  313. floretta has joined

  314. lovetox has left

  315. Beherit has joined

  316. kikuchiyo has joined

  317. kikuchiyo has left

  318. kikuchiyo has joined

  319. kikuchiyo has left

  320. kikuchiyo has joined

  321. kikuchiyo has left