jdev - 2020-11-20

Also regarding XEP-0373's "to": the XEP says that <crypt/> and <signcrypt/> "MUST have at least one", and <sign/> "MAY NOT contain one". Shouldn't it be reversed for <sign/> and <crypt/>? And "MAY NOT" is not defined in RFC 2119, I found it a bit confusing (assuming it's the same as "MAY").

lovetox: that's something we pondered about too. my feeling is that the muc jid is sufficient. The interesting question is actually if you should add the real JIDs if available. To which I also tend to believe the answer is probably 'no'. Note that the 'to' is required to prevent Surreptitious Forward Attacks and I could imagine that adding just the MUCs address as 'to' is sufficient to prevent those. Implementation experience confirming or refuting this would be very helpful ✏

defanor, yes it probably should be "MAY not" or something

or simply OPTIONAL

defanor, looking into the the reversing

Would it be possible to extend search.jabber.network to also find Pubsub nodes there :) ?

edhelas, yes, but why

Well it's mostly for Movim, but there is more and more persons that are creating nodes and publishing content

https://upload.movim.eu/files/9d94237298995552fa13436420195fbca436dce7/jSbOO9tnqdctmZgMO6uwKJIjnduO0ILK85r1SLRE/Capture_d_%C3%A9cran_2020-11-20_10-29-04.png

edhelas, I need more to go by than that ✏

- how do I discover nodes which may be interesting for users? - how do I distinguish such nodes from random nodes used by whatever machine-to-machine communication? - how do I discover: avatar, title, description? - what kind of URI to use to make that useful? - what would be a good sorting criteria for such nodes? -> please answer all of that in an issue against https://github.com/horazont/muchopper/

thank you, edhelas :)

👍

Big +1 to making more XMPP communities more easily discoverable. I think it should be clearly separated from the MUC search while there is basically only a single client able to access them... otherwise it will just cause more frustration for users

For the same reason I don't think it would be a good idea to list MIX rooms there right now

If either have a MUC bridge, the problem goes away of course, and if clients adopt either protocol more widely, the problem also goes away

search.movim.network when? :D

MattJ: Ge0rG: SàT can access them too, I wonder why it's always ignored :(

2 clients is 100% better than 1 client!

goffi: sorry :)

Ge0rG: no worries, it's symptomatic that I need to improve the communication around the project…

It's always marketing and network effect :/

goffi: what does it mean, you don't have a full time marketing person travelling around the world to convince people of your produ^H^HjecT?

I was planning to have one, but I've change my plans due to covid19

changed*

goffi, well, I wasn't aware Movim and SàT interoperated when it came to communities... that's actually great to hear :)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but trying to be helpful here... to me it feels like SàT is aiming to be a power user tool that can do everything, not really an IM client

MattJ: it's XEP-0277, just not put on PEP

Also, I always see the screenshots on the website, but it's not really clear what it's showing

Anectdote: I remember having trouble installing SàT. Something with Python versions of things. I don't remember details.

The text is small, most of the page is taken up by a picture of a road that doesn't really tell me anything useful

MattJ: SàT has several frontends, while the CLI one is for power user, the web or desktop ones are for general audience. I'm actually currently presenting it as a "familly social network"

That's a good thing. But the website front page doesn't appear that way at all :)

MattJ: Mobile?

Desktop

MattJ: "but it's not really clear what it's showing" ==> that's actually useful feedback, thanks. It's clearly one of the problem that the project was not clearly presented enough. I've worked on that in the current dev version and with the new website.

Zash: that's also useful feedback, the only issue is that I've never hear of it ;). Please report this to me at least via XMPP, or better create a ticket on https://bugs.goffi.org

Based on what I know right now (which is probably incorrect), if you said my family should try SàT, I'd say that none of them really want a bug tracker in their IM client

goffi: Sorry. I can see about trying again and writing down my experiences.

https://cerdale.zash.se/upload/UOqLphW8zqAmLqkL/5115bfa2-eeb9-4654-8721-ce86c94a5058.png

it's not IM, it's a set of tools. The issue tracker is for needs of the project, that's probably confusing, but it's not what you'll use with your familly. But photo album, blogging, chat, and events are definitely something you would use.

While we're on the topic, Movim has other complexity issues, it's hard to explain to someone that they need an XMPP account, let alone obtain an XMPP account and choose a (working) "pod"

Zash: :D

I like both projects are pushing what XMPP can do, and I think that's a good thing... and I feel your pain when you both run into various issues along the way (pubsub nodes not having a type... etc.)

Also I'm working on an XMPP project trying to reduce confusion by giving a bunch of clients the same name for users... SàT has so many sub-projects with different names I can never remember any of them :)

Maybe the website should be something like a gallery of use-cases, with a screenshot for each

"Here is SàT powering a family social network", "Here is SàT powering a bug tracker", "Here is our IM client"

Also the name is probably hard to spell for any non-french. :D

well that's trouble with standard, it's annoying but we can deal with it. The major issue is lack of interest (and I blame myself here for probably wrong decisions and communication). When I saw everybody super exited about a small video made by Framasoft showing a comment share between mastodon and and other activity pub thing (don't remember which one, peertube maybe), even reaching HN top page IIRC, when we've been doing that for years with SàT and Movim, I really will that we lack support from the community.

goffi, "XMPP" as a keyword on HN is cursed, avoid at all cost

Martin: some English names are hard to spell for non English, the name was a kind of a protest against that. "Libervia" is probably more easy to use, it's currently user for the web frontend, but we've been talking a couple of time about using it for the whole project.

Libervia sounds better for me. :)

Also the name "Cagou" (Desktop/mobile frontend) which is actually an endemic bird from New Caledonia, is unfortunate for anybody speaking portuguese

Why? Is it the same problem as the Pajero Jeep?

it means in Portuguess "I have shitted" or something like that.

But it was a reference to this bird + the Kiwi from New Zealand, as this project uses the Kivy framework

Hi, I am using nodejs and logging into a XMPP service where I already have another user logged in, if i change the resource in the Nodejs client, how can i get all the same messages returned back to that client which the original client is getting, basically logging into 1 service as same user from diff locations sort of scenario

PM: you need to enable XEP-0280 Carbons when logging in

PM: you can also fetch old messages using XEP-0313 MAM

Carbons will send carbon copies of all messages to all logged in clients, MAM will give you a way to fetch messages that were delivered before you connected

ok looks like i am getting some data now, so let me see if i get stuck again

PM: is this an instant messaging client or some technical m2m system?

You might want to look at https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0443.html#im for IM

🤷