jdev - 2020-11-20

  1. defanor

    Also regarding XEP-0373's "to": the XEP says that <crypt/> and <signcrypt/> "MUST have at least one", and <sign/> "MAY NOT contain one". Shouldn't it be reversed for <sign/> and <crypt/>? And "MAY NOT" is not defined in RFC 2119, I found it a bit confusing (assuming it's the same as "MAY").

  2. flow

    lovetox: that's something we pondered about too. my feeling is that the muc jid is sufficient. The interesting question is actually if you should add the real JIDs if available. To which I also tend to believe the answer is probably 'no'. Note that the 'to' is required to prevent Surreptitious Forward Attacks and I could imagine that adding just the MUCs address as 'to' is sufficient to prevent those. Implementation experience to confirming or refuting this would be very helpful

  3. flow

    lovetox: that's something we pondered about too. my feeling is that the muc jid is sufficient. The interesting question is actually if you should add the real JIDs if available. To which I also tend to believe the answer is probably 'no'. Note that the 'to' is required to prevent Surreptitious Forward Attacks and I could imagine that adding just the MUCs address as 'to' is sufficient to prevent those. Implementation experience confirming or refuting this would be very helpful

  4. flow

    defanor, yes it probably should be "MAY not" or something

  5. flow

    or simply OPTIONAL

  6. flow

    defanor, looking into the the reversing

  7. edhelas

    Would it be possible to extend search.jabber.network to also find Pubsub nodes there :) ?

  8. jonas’

    edhelas, yes, but why

  9. edhelas

    Well it's mostly for Movim, but there is more and more persons that are creating nodes and publishing content

  10. edhelas


  11. jonas’

    edhelas, I need more to go by that

  12. jonas’

    edhelas, I need more to go by than that

  13. jonas’

    - how do I discover nodes which may be interesting for users? - how do I distinguish such nodes from random nodes used by whatever machine-to-machine communication? - how do I discover: avatar, title, description? - what kind of URI to use to make that useful? - what would be a good sorting criteria for such nodes? -> please answer all of that in an issue against https://github.com/horazont/muchopper/

  14. jonas’

    thank you, edhelas :)

  15. edhelas


  16. MattJ

    Big +1 to making more XMPP communities more easily discoverable. I think it should be clearly separated from the MUC search while there is basically only a single client able to access them... otherwise it will just cause more frustration for users

  17. MattJ

    For the same reason I don't think it would be a good idea to list MIX rooms there right now

  18. MattJ

    If either have a MUC bridge, the problem goes away of course, and if clients adopt either protocol more widely, the problem also goes away

  19. Ge0rG

    search.movim.network when? :D

  20. goffi

    MattJ: Ge0rG: SàT can access them too, I wonder why it's always ignored :(

  21. pulkomandy

    2 clients is 100% better than 1 client!

  22. Ge0rG

    goffi: sorry :)

  23. goffi

    Ge0rG: no worries, it's symptomatic that I need to improve the communication around the project…

  24. Zash

    It's always marketing and network effect :/

  25. Ge0rG

    goffi: what does it mean, you don't have a full time marketing person travelling around the world to convince people of your produ^H^HjecT?

  26. goffi

    I was planning to have one, but I've change my plans due to covid19

  27. goffi


  28. MattJ

    goffi, well, I wasn't aware Movim and SàT interoperated when it came to communities... that's actually great to hear :)

  29. MattJ

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but trying to be helpful here... to me it feels like SàT is aiming to be a power user tool that can do everything, not really an IM client

  30. goffi

    MattJ: it's XEP-0277, just not put on PEP

  31. MattJ

    Also, I always see the screenshots on the website, but it's not really clear what it's showing

  32. Zash

    Anectdote: I remember having trouble installing SàT. Something with Python versions of things. I don't remember details.

  33. MattJ

    The text is small, most of the page is taken up by a picture of a road that doesn't really tell me anything useful

  34. goffi

    MattJ: SàT has several frontends, while the CLI one is for power user, the web or desktop ones are for general audience. I'm actually currently presenting it as a "familly social network"

  35. MattJ

    That's a good thing. But the website front page doesn't appear that way at all :)

  36. Zash

    MattJ: Mobile?

  37. MattJ


  38. goffi

    MattJ: "but it's not really clear what it's showing" ==> that's actually useful feedback, thanks. It's clearly one of the problem that the project was not clearly presented enough. I've worked on that in the current dev version and with the new website.

  39. goffi

    Zash: that's also useful feedback, the only issue is that I've never hear of it ;). Please report this to me at least via XMPP, or better create a ticket on https://bugs.goffi.org

  40. MattJ

    Based on what I know right now (which is probably incorrect), if you said my family should try SàT, I'd say that none of them really want a bug tracker in their IM client

  41. Zash

    goffi: Sorry. I can see about trying again and writing down my experiences.

  42. Zash


  43. goffi

    it's not IM, it's a set of tools. The issue tracker is for needs of the project, that's probably confusing, but it's not what you'll use with your familly. But photo album, blogging, chat, and events are definitely something you would use.

  44. MattJ

    While we're on the topic, Movim has other complexity issues, it's hard to explain to someone that they need an XMPP account, let alone obtain an XMPP account and choose a (working) "pod"

  45. goffi

    Zash: :D

  46. MattJ

    I like both projects are pushing what XMPP can do, and I think that's a good thing... and I feel your pain when you both run into various issues along the way (pubsub nodes not having a type... etc.)

  47. MattJ

    Also I'm working on an XMPP project trying to reduce confusion by giving a bunch of clients the same name for users... SàT has so many sub-projects with different names I can never remember any of them :)

  48. MattJ

    Maybe the website should be something like a gallery of use-cases, with a screenshot for each

  49. MattJ

    "Here is SàT powering a family social network", "Here is SàT powering a bug tracker", "Here is our IM client"

  50. Martin

    Also the name is probably hard to spell for any non-french. :D

  51. goffi

    well that's trouble with standard, it's annoying but we can deal with it. The major issue is lack of interest (and I blame myself here for probably wrong decisions and communication). When I saw everybody super exited about a small video made by Framasoft showing a comment share between mastodon and and other activity pub thing (don't remember which one, peertube maybe), even reaching HN top page IIRC, when we've been doing that for years with SàT and Movim, I really will that we lack support from the community.

  52. Zash

    goffi, "XMPP" as a keyword on HN is cursed, avoid at all cost

  53. goffi

    Martin: some English names are hard to spell for non English, the name was a kind of a protest against that. "Libervia" is probably more easy to use, it's currently user for the web frontend, but we've been talking a couple of time about using it for the whole project.

  54. Martin

    Libervia sounds better for me. :)

  55. goffi

    Also the name "Cagou" (Desktop/mobile frontend) which is actually an endemic bird from New Caledonia, is unfortunate for anybody speaking portuguese

  56. Martin needs to create a project called "Eichhörnchen" or so and make all except Germans struggle to pronounce it. :D

  57. Martin

    Why? Is it the same problem as the Pajero Jeep?

  58. goffi

    it means in Portuguess "I have shitted" or something like that.

  59. goffi

    But it was a reference to this bird + the Kiwi from New Zealand, as this project uses the Kivy framework

  60. PM

    Hi, I am using nodejs and logging into a XMPP service where I already have another user logged in, if i change the resource in the Nodejs client, how can i get all the same messages returned back to that client which the original client is getting, basically logging into 1 service as same user from diff locations sort of scenario

  61. Ge0rG

    PM: you need to enable XEP-0280 Carbons when logging in

  62. Ge0rG

    PM: you can also fetch old messages using XEP-0313 MAM

  63. Ge0rG

    Carbons will send carbon copies of all messages to all logged in clients, MAM will give you a way to fetch messages that were delivered before you connected

  64. PM

    ok looks like i am getting some data now, so let me see if i get stuck again

  65. Ge0rG

    PM: is this an instant messaging client or some technical m2m system?

  66. Ge0rG

    You might want to look at https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0443.html#im for IM

  67. Ge0rG