jdev - 2021-01-24

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  116. lovetox any client dev here that preservs notifications across app restarts?
  117. lovetox i would be intersted how this is implementd
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  208. Sam Whited I see in RFC 6120 that there is a rule that says that IDs must be unpredictable (of course), but I thought it also said that you must not attribute any meaning to them. I don't see that anywhere now though. Is this actually a rule somewhere for ID attributes or did I just dream it up? I know it's true for resourceparts, so maybe I'm just remembering that and getting confused
  209. Zash What's the meaning of "meaning"?
  210. Sam Whited eg. if I abuse IDs as an extension point and send "<stanzacount>-randomstuff" or something as the ID instead of using stream management acks (or anything really, just embedding some info in the ID). I'm trying to convince someone not to do this, but I can't find anything to quote that actually makes it illegal
  211. Sam Whited (they're not doing that specific example, I just made that up, I have no idea what they want to shove into the ID)
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  213. Sam Whited It's this PR that someone opened that I'm trying to formulate a response to in case anyone else wants to comment that this is a bad idea: https://github.com/mattn/go-xmpp/pull/128
  214. flow Sam Whited, xep359 (stanza-id) has that
  215. flow potentially you are confusing if with that?
  216. Zash flow, which words say that?
  217. Sam Whited flow: that's probably what I'm remembering. Drat, that doesn't help me though since now my argument has to be "this is a bad idea, just use XML" instead of "this is illegal, read the RFC" :)
  218. flow Zash, "The value of the 'id' attribute should not provide any further information besides the opaque ID itself."
  219. flow I note that this is not RFC keyworded
  220. flow And that ejabberd does not follow that
  221. flow and that I think that ejabberd has a good case for not following it
  222. Zash YOLO I'm using "date-random" in my IDs
  223. Sam Whited flow: what does ejabberd do? I wasn't aware they were doing anything like this
  224. Zash as in yyyy-mm-dd-xxxxxxxx
  225. flow Sam Whited, I think they simply use a nano or microseconds timestamp as ID
  226. Sam Whited eww
  227. Zash That's actually a sensible thing I wanna do too
  228. flow I think the eww'nes potentially depends on the use case
  229. flow On the one side, it sure is always a good idea to not leak information
  230. Zash High-precision timestamp as ID, so you can sort things by it.
  231. flow OTOH, it is really tempting to use timestamps for those IDs, and what could potentially go wrong?
  232. Sam Whited That bothers me a lot. To be fair, I don't have a good reason why, it just seems like if you're going to do that you should put a <timestamp/> element or attribute or something in there and sort by that
  233. flow eventually I think it is good that xep359 only recommends to not put any semantic in the ID, and it is good that implementations do not have to follow this
  234. Zash Semantics for yourself, but there's the risk of other entities starting to rely on that
  235. Zash It is kinda handy to encode data in IDs so you can do stateless things
  236. Holger Right, that's what ejabberd is doing in the IQ 'id' case.
  237. Holger (Not for sorting stuff but for routing responses without keeping state.)
  238. flow I guess as long as the next 'id' value is not predictable
  239. Sam Whited That makes sense to a certain extent if it's in an opaque way I suppose and not any info that someone else might decide is useful, rely on, and turn into a defacto API, but I don't know how to argue for "this is only okay sometimes"
  240. Holger flow: Nope, there's a random part.
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  242. Zash High-precision timestamp with random noise in lowest bits. Mmmmmm.
  243. Holger Sam Whited: I'm not sure I'll buy this risk of my peers potentially doing stopid things as a show-stopper for me doing sane things. (While I would buy security worries of course.)
  244. jonas’ Do not look at this: https://modules.prosody.im/mod_client_proxy.html
  245. Sam Whited Holger: I don't think it means you shouldn't do it, but I don't think that means we should encourage it and add specific library support for it.
  246. jonas’ ~Do not look at this: https://modules.prosody.im/mod_client_proxy.html~ nevermind, that does resource things, not ID things.
  247. Sam Whited If I were starting from scratch I would probably make it illegal so that most things wouldn't support it, then if you wanted to support it "who cares?" It's not breaking anything and if you accept the risk you can do it.
  248. Sam Whited Anyways, sounds like it's not actually forbidden, so I'll have to make my argument some other way.
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  289. Kev There are some limited cases where M-Link uses IDs for encoding information, too.
  290. Kev Although I hope to remove them at some point.
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