jdev - 2021-03-11

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  128. Sam Found out that disroot.org operates an open irc/xmpp bridge and was briefly excited, but now I am quieted or banned from at least one room (presumably for repeated join/parts) and I still can't figure out how the hell to authenticate with nickserv *facepalm* I hate bridges.
  129. Sam Except, weirdly, I can use the matrix.org xmpp/matrix bridge, and then join an IRC room through their matrix/irc bridge, and somehow that works better than just going directly and how to use nickserve is actually documented :S
  130. jonas’ Sam, what kind of bridge is disroot.org?
  131. Sam I'm not sure
  132. jonas’ because biboumi is fairly well documented: https://doc.biboumi.louiz.org/9.0/user.html
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  134. Sam Oh, it is Biboumi, just went to the page to see if it said.
  135. Sam I looked through those docs, didn't see anything about nickserv.
  136. jonas’ check for "Authenticating"
  137. jonas’ also, a text search for NickServ would’ve brought you there ;)
  138. Sam Oh yah, this is what I was trying to do, but it wasn't working.
  139. jonas’ it does work for me on the one network where I set it up
  140. Sam I was probably searching for "NickServe" or something stupid, because I definitely did that
  141. Sam It just keeps telling me that the commands are wrong or something. i dunno, it only messages me half the time and I keep having ot disconnect/reconnect to make it even send them, and gajim won't actually let me do adhoc commands without jumping through hoops (there's an open bug I found for it). Everything about this is terrible.
  142. Zash Curious, I have the opposite experience. I got complaints after joining via Matrix, but nobody on freenode even notices that I'm connected via Biboumi, so it doesn't generate any of the free marketing that the Matrix-IRC netsplits do.
  143. Zash Curious, I have the opposite experience. I got complaints after joining a Matrix room via bridge*, but nobody on freenode even notices that I'm connected via Biboumi, so it doesn't generate any of the free marketing that the Matrix-IRC netsplits do.
  144. Sam Not to mention that I had to install gajim because nothing supports adhoc commands but for some reason things insist on using them instead of just letting me send them commands as a message. *grumble, grumble*
  145. jonas’ (poezio works)
  146. jonas’ (poezio works, too)
  147. Zash Can't you send messages to nickserv%ircnet@bridge ?
  148. jonas’ Sam, well, sending commands as text (a) conflicts with TUI clients and (b) is terrible when used with automated things
  149. Sam I think an ubuntu manpage showed a nickserv command example using some syntax I'm not familiar with (probably some raw IRC thing). ANyways, no idea, it's been a pain.
  150. Sam jonas’: and yet, the drawbacks are minimal and it works everywhere.
  151. jonas’ I’ve had one bot do … suboptimal things … because you could make it say /foo and the bridge was stupid and based on libpurple and interpreted that.
  152. jonas’ Sam, that is your opinion. But you’re also the author of '393, sooooo… ;)
  153. Sam I mean, don't get me wrong, I get the pain points, I accidentally send people :quit or something all the time, but literally nothign but gajim supports adhoc commands.
  154. Sam 393, which is widely adopted and works fine, yes.
  155. jonas’ poezio supports them
  156. Sam Great, 2 clients out of dozens support them. That's not better.
  157. jonas’ ok, you want to rant, I’ll leave you at that
  158. Sam I was just hoping someone would know how to authenticate this, since those docs still don't give me any useful information.
  159. Sam I thought SASL worked, pretty sure that's what I was using with IRSSI, but it didn't do anything. Maybe I should try it again, I might have forgotten to reconnect or something.
  160. Zash Try in xmpp:biboumi@muc.poez.io?join
  161. Sam Will do if trying sasl again doesn't work, thanks
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  163. Sam *sigh* now it just says "Error connecting to server". No idea what that means. Maybe Freenode banned me for too many reconnects or something.
  164. Sam Or "ERROR: Connection closed" or something. Anyways, everything is broken. Will try the biboumi room later.
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  166. Sam But yes, slight rant starting about every damn thing we ever do in XMPP land: how am I supposed to use this if I don't know anything about XMPP? For a very basic use case, the disroot site says "use this format and you'll join an IRC room". Great. But as soon as anything goes wrong, there's no way to know how to get help even. If I send a message to anything, they dont' respond, my client probably doesn't make it clear that commands are a thing even if it does support them at all, etc.
  167. jonas’ I blame disroot for not linking any reasonable documentation and your client for being incapable of either implementing adhoc or supporting biboumi specifically.
  168. jonas’ fwiw, for my client project I envisioned having built-in support for talking to biboumi
  169. Sam I don't generally like the idea of super specific integrations, but TBF that would make it a lot easier for users. disroot could link to better documentation, that's fair, but I feel like if my server supports it I should have some way to get to those docs or get help from my client without going and looking for it.
  170. Sam Like something as simple as biboumi or whatever responding with a help message and not just ignoring me if I message the gateway would be nice. Even if it's just 'this is just a bot, here are the docs:'
  171. moparisthebest on the opposite side, a friend wanted a better way to join IRC from mobile, so I had him install Conversations, sent him a link, he clicked it, and he's been happy ever since
  172. jonas’ Sam, go ahead and make a MR for biboumi, I think that’s a good idea even.
  173. Sam What's an MR?
  174. moparisthebest non-githubese for PR
  175. Sam ahh, gotcha
  176. jonas’ because biboumi is on a gitlab instance
  177. Sam Is it? First search result is github
  178. Sam Either way, I don't write Python or C++
  179. jonas’ ugh
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  181. moparisthebest obligatory "but it's not C++ it's MODERN C++" :P
  182. Sam Don't care, hate them both for different reasons :)
  183. Sam It wont' even let me view the issue tracker without an account though, or I'd try to file an issue at least
  184. moparisthebest no I'm with you, except I also won't write Go :P
  185. Zash All languages are terrible, except Lua. Lua is love.
  186. Sam That's sort of fair. Go is the least-bad garbage in my experience. Lua is terrible, it constantly defines variables when you slightly misspell something and then breaks in impossible to debug ways *grumpy*
  187. moparisthebest it's nice everyone can have a favorite language or two
  188. Sam 🎉 SASL worked apparently. Still no idea what was wrong before, but after randomly failing 3 or 4 times with a useless error message it finally connected.
  189. Sam Okay, it's working, now careful not to touch it forever.
  190. mathieui Sam, really, for arbitrary interactions with an entity there’s not much better than adhoc commands… Sure you can have some kind of text-only fallback through messages if you want to quickly debug stuff, but the UX is sub-par and it is very error-prone
  191. Sam Oh, they're fine if the client supports them, but none of them do so it seems like there should be an alternate one.
  192. mathieui well, 0100 is very limited in its scope sadly
  193. Sam Even if the client does support them, I don't see how you'd discover that they're the way to configure this gateway
  194. mathieui (but any kind of textual communication with a gateway has to be ad-hoc which, ew)
  195. Sam But maybe that will just happen if they were more widely supported and it wouldn't be a problem.
  196. Sam Okay, re-enabled all the IRC bookmarks I created. Restarting client, let's see if I actually join to all these rooms or just get bombarded with errors again…
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  199. Sam test?
  200. Sam huh, now Conversations shows me as offline and unconnected to this room and won't fetch history. But sending a message worked. I give up.
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  202. eta Sam, fwiw I'm also on team "ad-hoc commands are annoying"
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  204. eta I hate that I have to get out poezio every time I want to configure biboumi
  205. Sam I mean, don't get me wrong, they'd be nice if things supported them, but I don't think they're generally all that useful (a gateway is pretty niche) so most things probably will never support them. Maybe if they had some more general purpose use, I dunno.
  206. mathieui "client developrs who refuse to implement ad-hoc commands and forms are annoying"
  207. mathieui but yes, having to fire up another client to configure things is never ideal, obviously
  208. Sam I don't think that's the case though. Why would client devs implement them for the most part?
  209. eta by far my #1 complaint about all gateways though is how they tie things to presence
  210. mathieui eta, biboumi doesn’t, afaik?
  211. eta IMHO a gateway should *never* kick you out of a MUC
  212. eta (unless you've actually been kicked from the legacy network side)
  213. Zash Like the Matrix-XMPP one?
  214. eta because getting clients to stay in MUCs is hard enough as is without the gateways screwing around
  215. eta whatsxmpp takes the attitude that MUC join state should be persisted to the DB and restored on restart
  216. mathieui eta, to be fair it should be mapped to whatever the remote network behavior is supposed to be
  217. mathieui leaving a whatsapp/signal/whatever room because the xmpp side left is truly awful
  218. eta no don't do that (but nothing does apart from maybe spectrum)
  219. Sam I wonder if it's worth putting adhoc commands in the compliance suites? Would that be enough for client devs? Or maybe we need more uses for them first to justify that. I dunno, just thinking out loud.
  220. eta what I'm complaining about is when your IRC connection drops under biboumi and you get kicked from all of your MUCs
  221. eta or when a gateway is manually rebooted and the same thing happens
  222. Sam Actually, no, I think I'd be against that. Still undecided, but this is super niche. Seems like it would just be a burden on client devs. Maybe gateways and things just need to implement a fallback.
  223. mathieui eta, ah.
  224. eta gateways should remember the user's intent (if they joined a room and never left it, they probably want to stay in it!)
  225. mathieui (+1)
  226. eta requiring the user to "babysit" the gateway is incredibly bad UX
  227. eta like it annoys me and I actually know things about XMPP
  228. eta for someone who isn't an XMPP fan they'd just consider it an incredibly broken experience
  229. mathieui Sam, adding adhoc to compliance suites seems hard to do
  230. eta also sending unavailable-presence to the gateway shouldn't log you out of the remote network either
  231. eta (biboumi doesn't do this, thankfully)
  232. Sam Yah, that doesn't seem like a good way to encourage implementations anyways. I dunno, I keep going back and forth on that.
  233. Sam Making them more useful first is probably the better way.
  234. Ge0rG maybe we need a new category for those? :D
  235. eta I think for clients with ad-hoc commands, they're lovely
  236. eta like honestly, great way to configure things that isn't like "wtf how do I use this text interface"
  237. Ge0rG but it's really ungrateful work for the dev
  238. eta but right now they're not supported enough to be the only method of config
  239. mathieui Sam, there are nice XEPs with standardized sets of ad-hoc commands, which means clients don’t have to have the full adaptability of 0050 + 0004 to use them, which is great
  240. mathieui but that cannot really work for gatewyays
  241. Sam How many things need configuring though? MUCs do their own thing IIRC, so it's just gateways and maybe server admin stuff, right?
  242. eta btw while we're on the subject the gateway registration XEP is kinda trash IMO
  243. mathieui eta, yes.
  244. eta much better to just use adhoc / textual commands
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  246. mathieui Maybe it would be worth it to start a thread on standards@ about gateway interaction
  247. mathieui I’ll try to collect some feedback, there is one guy who is writing some spectrum-like generic gateway software block using slixmpp lately and he has implemented XEP-0100, I will ask him for some feedback on top of my own, if he has time
  248. Sam Good idea
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  250. jubalh I'm slightly confused about OTR.
  251. jubalh https://otr.im/ is this related to XEP-0364 ?
  252. jubalh It's a newer version of https://otr.cypherpunks.ca/Protocol-v3-4.0.0.html right?
  253. jubalh But is this used in any XEP or is anyone aware of that project?
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  256. flow all xmpp clients probably implement OTRv3
  257. flow as v4 is relatively new
  258. flow Sofia Celi of https://github.com/otrv4/otrv4 once reached out to the XMPP community, but I never heard that someone tried to XEPify OTRv4
  259. jubalh Okay good to know
  260. jubalh it seems https://github.com/coyim/coyim is using it
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