jdev - 2021-04-19

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  18. Sam Thanks; I got curious and gave it a shot so I want to steal your tests and also see if you're doing anything XML-wise that I don't know about and need to fix
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  39. moparisthebest Sam, is your implementation public? I'm equally curious :)
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  134. Sam I'll push it up somewhere
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  140. Sam moparisthebest: https://pkg.go.dev/mellium.im/xml
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  142. Sam It's a bit different from yours, right now it only splits a byte stream on possible XML tokens. It may split out things that are invalid, but I don't believe it will ever split something that should be valid incorrectly. Later maybe I'll add a higher level thing that actually parses tokens, expands self-closing tags, etc.
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  146. Sam Although I should also say that I wouldn't use this as the basis for the actual parser probably. You wouldn't want a parser to consume a giant chunk of text where right at the beginning it could have realized it was invalid, you'd want to error as soon as possible, so it would copy some of the splitters work but not use it exactly because the parser can error, the splitter can't.
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  239. lovetox hm i just read an article on hackernews, and in a comment someone mentioned this protocol for contact discovery
  240. lovetox https://contact-discovery.github.io/
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  243. lovetox which the authors claim is privacy friendly and scaleable
  244. lovetox i guess only phone clients care about that
  245. Zash From the prominence and frequency of the word 'mobile', sure sounds like it'll be about phone numbers, yeah.
  246. Zash Probably way harder if you include other identifiers.
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  252. mathieui the protocols they propose do not seem to be linked to phone numbers though
  253. mathieui from a quick look, it’s bloom filters with crypto sprinkled on top, which is nice for the purpose of not sending your address book to the server, and also the enumeration attacks they found
  254. mathieui not really much help for discovery in a federated setting as far as I understand it
  255. Zash Not the same problem I guess
  256. mathieui (both client and server need to know the phone numbers of the dataset)
  257. Zash Wasn't there cryptomagic that let you query an encrypted database? I definitely saw a video presentation about that once.
  258. mathieui I mean, it *can* be useful if implemented to find contacts on a server, by e.g. querying phone numbers or emails against whatever is in the vcard
  259. mathieui but I don’t see it going much further than this
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  261. Zash As in, no federation?
  262. Zash So the solution is to centralize it, like Matrix with their Identity Server stuff.
  263. Zash Not totally unlike the Quicksy directory
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  265. mathieui Zash, well, except worse
  266. mathieui that’s "Private Set Intersection", what you get as a result, is "which elements are in both of these sets"
  267. mathieui that does not help you resolve a JID from another element
  268. mathieui (but I like the idea though, did not know about it)
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  271. mathieui (I would happy to be proven wrong about the uses for xmpp contact discovery, I’m not a cryptographer :p)
  272. Zash What if...
  273. Zash You do that, but p2p
  274. mathieui Error: not enough information
  275. Zash As in, ask your contacts if they have the JIDs of anyone in your phonebook
  276. Zash Assuming PSI lets you do that without leaking
  277. mathieui that could work
  278. mathieui it does not leak info, as far as I can tell
  279. pulkomandy I'm more confortable sending my contact list to Google or some other supposedly big evil company than sending them to all my contacts
  280. mathieui but there needs to be a negociation and quite a bit of computation involved
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  282. mathieui pulkomandy, the contact does not know your contact list :p
  283. mathieui that is kind of the point
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  285. Zash Tho they would, by necessity, get the intersection of the contact lists?
  286. mathieui I believe they do not know what is in the intersection as well, but I would need to read one more paper for that
  287. Zash Hm, is it useful then?
  288. mathieui ah, apparently they do know about the intersection
  289. mathieui which is obviously a big no for p2p then
  290. Zash obviously?
  291. Zash Is "hey can you give me the JIDs of our mutual contacts" a bad thing?
  292. mathieui well, it leaks your social graph, which is not necessarily what people would want to share
  293. mathieui even with contacts
  294. pulkomandy especially with contacts I'd say?
  295. mathieui pulkomandy, I tend to appreciate my contacts :p
  296. Zash Eh, can't think of anything better than the stuff Snikket is doing then.
  297. pulkomandy but not everyone has an easy life like that :) good for you if you can
  298. mathieui also you still have the issue of "the numbers matched, here are the JIDs", and the JID part is not cryptographically secure so anyone could like
  299. mathieui send whatever JID
  300. mathieui (if some contacts matches)
  301. mathieui which is yet another attack
  302. Zash Eh, just put your JID in your $socialnetwork profile and call it a day.
  303. pulkomandy yes, I think I'm going to stay at "automatically discovering contacts is bad for your privacy or that of your contacts and it's better to not do it"
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  305. mathieui pulkomandy, well, the privacy solution would be to have one address book per "mobile application of the week" + this PSI protocol
  306. mathieui (for centralized messengers of course)
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  308. Zash Where's the optimal balance between uploading your phonebook to the cloud, and staring at an empty contact list?
  309. mathieui Zash, potato farming
  310. Zash true fact
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  312. MattJ Any scheme you come up with has to defend against an actor claiming to have every phone number in their address book
  313. MattJ Because if they do that, they get all registered JIDs
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  315. MattJ A centralized service can add limits, a decentralized one typically can't
  316. Zash Snikket Circle stuff FTW
  317. jonas’ I hear the limits worked really well for signal
  318. MattJ Snikket FTW
  319. jonas’ +1
  320. jonas’ (say all the folks involved with snikket)
  321. MattJ :)
  322. Zash NO BIAS, I PROMISE!
  323. MattJ Invites and JID sharing are a more polite way of doing the same thing as automatic contact discovery anyway
  324. mathieui yes.
  325. jonas’ and a more manual, to be fair
  326. mathieui It is ethically better but still a higher level of entry
  327. mathieui MattJ, I haven’t looked at that stuff too much, but is there a way to reply to an invite with "I already have an account at ***@example.com, I am adding you now" in some kind of protocol-y way?
  328. Zash Well if you wanna do the dark engagement and addiction building things...
  329. mathieui that’s probably not a very common use case
  330. jonas’ mathieui, it won’t work with circles at least
  331. jonas’ as those don’t federate well at this time
  332. jonas’ I don’t have a good idea how to span circles across services yet
  333. Zash There's that pre-authed contact invites with optional IBR support
  334. MattJ mathieui: yes, the invite token has two dimensions - one is to register an account, the other is a preauthed roster subscription
  335. jonas’ yep, that one exists, but it doesn’t support circles.
  336. MattJ That's fine, circles are for users within a single service
  337. jonas’ mmhm
  338. MattJ Maybe we can change that one day, but they're not everything
  339. jonas’ yes
  340. jonas’ I’d like to be able to span them, but they’re already really good as is
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  352. pulkomandy let's just offer new XMPP users a set of business cards with their JID on it (and a qrcode or something) then they can choose who they share it with? sometimes low-tech solutions are good
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  356. pulkomandy (or maybe qrcode isn't lowtech. but fitting a JID in a barcode is hard)
  357. Zash We had those "Hello, my JID is" stickers....
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  372. Sam Reminder that tomorrow is the XMPP Office Hours! This week I'm giving an intro to XMPP for new XMPP developers. However, if you're an experienced dev I'd love feedback! https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/XMPP_Office_Hours
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  414. Sam wow, that's a lot of messaging clients: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/List_of_applications#Instant_messaging_clients
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