jdev - 2021-06-16


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  230. stpeter Random TLS question ... do we know if anyone using 0-RTT mode with TLS 1.3 in XMPP?
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  232. stpeter (Context: I'm updating RFC 7525 with my co-authors and we'll likely not recommend 0-RTT mode unless there's a specification for using it in a given application protocol, as there is for http/2.)
  233. Zash I don't know anything of the sort.
  234. stpeter 0-RTT mode is ... interesting and needs to be handled with care.
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  236. Zash Opening stream header ... might be safe to use with it?
  237. moparisthebest I suppose your advice applies even more for QUIC 0-rtt ?
  238. moparisthebest is it just no forward secrecy and replay attacks or something else?
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  240. stpeter Mostly replay attacks, AIUI.
  241. moparisthebest those are dangerous in HTTP land because the replayed-thing could be "send $X to bob"
  242. moparisthebest but xmpp stream headers seem... ok ?
  243. Zash As long as you don't attempt SASL pipelining
  244. moparisthebest yes
  245. stpeter Hmm yeah. Thus the recommendation to have a spec in place. Don't just wing it!
  246. moparisthebest I mean, even if you did, they could repeatedly log in as you and not be able to proceed further? still probably ok
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  260. jonas’ SASL pipelining would still be safe with SCRAM, right?
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  266. flow stpeter, xep397 § 6. and the accompaning sasl-ht I-D discuss using 0-rtt data
  267. moparisthebest jonas’, I think if it's safe with SCRAM it's also safe without SCRAM ?
  268. flow so basically, if you do it right™, then instant stream resumption would be a nice use case for 0-rtt data
  269. moparisthebest attackers can't decrypt it, only replay it
  270. flow you just™ have to make sure that you leak nothing else into the 0-rtt data
  271. stpeter flow: thanks for the pointer
  272. jonas’ moparisthebest, PLAIN has no nonce, so if you pipeline all the things the attacker could replay whatever happens in the zeroth round trip I guess?
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  275. moparisthebest how do those differ, I mean, what happens if PLAIN is in early-data vs SASL stuff
  276. moparisthebest I think it's the same result
  277. Zash SCRAM has >0 roundtrips
  278. jonas’ SCRAM has a nonce and a forced round-trip. you cannot do a full authentication with SCRAM with zero round trips. so if you were to replay, you would hit a brick there with SCRAM, while you could probably authenticate with a PLAIN replay.
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  281. Zash If someone does a pipelined PLAIN, bind, and Something, then maybe you could replay that.
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  287. Zash All this gets more relevant with {SASL,BIND,*}2
  288. moparisthebest there's a limit to the amount of early-data that can be sent anyway, and I think the server sets it
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  292. flow moparisthebest, is that limit part of the protocol or a implementation specific thing?
  293. stpeter I believe that 0-RTT is used mainly in HTTP, where the client isn't (typically) authenticating with the server. The fact that XMPP uses TLS+SASL introduces different considerations.
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  295. stpeter (I'm also checking with people who know about the use of TLS in protocols like IMAP and SMTP.)
  296. moparisthebest flow, https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8446#section-4.6.1 max_early_data_size
  297. moparisthebest but also, it helps with resumption, which matters a lot for TCP+TLS but not really at all for QUIC because your QUIC connections can survive roaming across endpoints etc
  298. Zash Is resumption used with XMPP at all?
  299. Zash Is TLS* resumption used with XMPP at all?
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  316. flow moparisthebest, any idea about the typical value of this paramater?
  317. moparisthebest absolutely no idea, can't find anything with a quick search either
  318. moparisthebest it's a uint32 though if that helps :D
  319. moparisthebest couldn't you just in general say "don't send bind in early-data" for clients ?
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  330. Kev stpeter: We’re not currently doing 0RTT, but we’re very interested in this and want to do so at some point.
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  332. stpeter Kev: good to know, thanks for the input! We should think about the best ways to do this.
  333. Kev For X2X this would be particularly interesting, and for reduced-RTT client auth.
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  350. stpeter Indeed. Mobile is likely a key use case.
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