jdev - 2021-06-16

  1. nukes4all has left
  2. nukes4all has joined
  3. mikeye has joined
  4. alexbay218 has joined
  5. gutuning has left
  6. gutuning has joined
  7. raghavgururajan has left
  8. asterix has left
  9. asterix has joined
  10. asterix has left
  11. asterix has joined
  12. mikeye has left
  13. alex-a-soto has left
  14. mikeye has joined
  15. Zash has left
  16. raghavgururajan has joined
  17. gutuning has left
  18. alex-a-soto has joined
  19. nukes4all has left
  20. larma has left
  21. dezant has left
  22. dezant has joined
  23. nukes4all has joined
  24. gutuning has joined
  25. alexbay218 has left
  26. idk has joined
  27. mikeye has left
  28. mikeye has joined
  29. nukes4all has left
  30. nukes4all has joined
  31. Yagizа has joined
  32. DebXWoody has left
  33. DebXWoody has joined
  34. Kev has left
  35. Kev has joined
  36. Alex has left
  37. alexbay218 has joined
  38. nukes4all has left
  39. mikeye has left
  40. idk has left
  41. mac has left
  42. Yagizа has left
  43. Yagizа has joined
  44. idk has joined
  45. gutuning has left
  46. gutuning has joined
  47. asterix has left
  48. asterix has joined
  49. asterix has left
  50. asterix has joined
  51. mac has joined
  52. wurstsalat has joined
  53. goffi has joined
  54. lovetox has left
  55. mikeye has joined
  56. idk has left
  57. lovetox has joined
  58. Kev has left
  59. Kev has joined
  60. idk has joined
  61. şişio has joined
  62. Kev has left
  63. Kev has joined
  64. marc0s has left
  65. marc0s has joined
  66. mikeye has left
  67. goffi has left
  68. goffi has joined
  69. mikeye has joined
  70. Kev has left
  71. Kev has joined
  72. idk has left
  73. Kev has left
  74. Kev has joined
  75. gutuning has left
  76. emus has joined
  77. şişio has left
  78. şişio has joined
  79. Alex has joined
  80. mac has left
  81. Kev has left
  82. Kev has joined
  83. debacle has joined
  84. alexbay218 has left
  85. Kiwi has joined
  86. gutuning has joined
  87. xecks has joined
  88. goffi has left
  89. marc0s has left
  90. marc0s has joined
  91. marc0s has left
  92. marc0s has joined
  93. marc0s has left
  94. marc0s has joined
  95. Alex has left
  96. Alex has joined
  97. Martin has left
  98. Martin has joined
  99. goffi has joined
  100. debacle has left
  101. mikeye has left
  102. marc has joined
  103. marc has left
  104. stuart.j.mackintosh has joined
  105. mikeye has joined
  106. marc has joined
  107. gutuning has left
  108. gutuning has joined
  109. goffi has left
  110. goffi has joined
  111. marc has left
  112. dezant has left
  113. dezant has joined
  114. marc has joined
  115. asterix has left
  116. asterix has joined
  117. floretta has left
  118. floretta has joined
  119. floretta has left
  120. floretta has joined
  121. sonny has left
  122. sonny has joined
  123. pasdesushi has joined
  124. gutuning has left
  125. gutuning has joined
  126. asterix has left
  127. asterix has joined
  128. asterix has left
  129. asterix has joined
  130. gutuning has left
  131. xecks has left
  132. xecks has joined
  133. pasdesushi has left
  134. pasdesushi has joined
  135. pasdesushi has left
  136. pasdesushi has joined
  137. asterix has left
  138. pasdesushi has left
  139. pasdesushi has joined
  140. Yagizа has left
  141. Yagizа has joined
  142. pasdesushi has left
  143. debacle has joined
  144. asterix has joined
  145. Yagizа has left
  146. Yagizа has joined
  147. Kiwi has left
  148. şişio has left
  149. asterix has left
  150. asterix has joined
  151. gutuning has joined
  152. şişio has joined
  153. asterix has left
  154. asterix has joined
  155. asterix has left
  156. asterix has joined
  157. mikeye has left
  158. Wojtek has joined
  159. asterix has left
  160. asterix has joined
  161. Zash has joined
  162. x51 has joined
  163. dezant has left
  164. gutuning has left
  165. gutuning has joined
  166. dezant has joined
  167. emus has left
  168. emus has joined
  169. Kiwi has joined
  170. debacle has left
  171. mikeye has joined
  172. Yagizа has left
  173. Yagizа has joined
  174. sonny has left
  175. sonny has joined
  176. alacer has left
  177. mikeye has left
  178. alacer has joined
  179. floretta has left
  180. floretta has joined
  181. larma has joined
  182. gutuning has left
  183. gutuning has joined
  184. asterix has left
  185. asterix has joined
  186. Wojtek has left
  187. Yagizа has left
  188. SouL has left
  189. SouL has joined
  190. alacer has left
  191. alacer has joined
  192. squeakylatex has joined
  193. edhelas has left
  194. xecks has left
  195. xecks has joined
  196. edhelas has joined
  197. gutuning has left
  198. gutuning has joined
  199. mac has joined
  200. Yagizа has joined
  201. stpeter has joined
  202. paul has left
  203. asterix has left
  204. asterix has joined
  205. mac has left
  206. paul has joined
  207. xecks has left
  208. xecks has joined
  209. asterix has left
  210. asterix has joined
  211. DebXWoody has left
  212. DebXWoody has joined
  213. dezant has left
  214. debacle has joined
  215. dezant has joined
  216. emus has left
  217. emus has joined
  218. pasdesushi has joined
  219. pasdesushi has left
  220. gutuning has left
  221. gutuning has joined
  222. Kev has left
  223. Kev has joined
  224. Kiwi has left
  225. debacle has left
  226. Kev has left
  227. Kev has joined
  228. dezant has left
  229. dezant has joined
  230. stpeter Random TLS question ... do we know if anyone using 0-RTT mode with TLS 1.3 in XMPP?
  231. gutuning has left
  232. stpeter (Context: I'm updating RFC 7525 with my co-authors and we'll likely not recommend 0-RTT mode unless there's a specification for using it in a given application protocol, as there is for http/2.)
  233. Zash I don't know anything of the sort.
  234. stpeter 0-RTT mode is ... interesting and needs to be handled with care.
  235. stuart.j.mackintosh has left
  236. Zash Opening stream header ... might be safe to use with it?
  237. moparisthebest I suppose your advice applies even more for QUIC 0-rtt ?
  238. moparisthebest is it just no forward secrecy and replay attacks or something else?
  239. gutuning has joined
  240. stpeter Mostly replay attacks, AIUI.
  241. moparisthebest those are dangerous in HTTP land because the replayed-thing could be "send $X to bob"
  242. moparisthebest but xmpp stream headers seem... ok ?
  243. Zash As long as you don't attempt SASL pipelining
  244. moparisthebest yes
  245. stpeter Hmm yeah. Thus the recommendation to have a spec in place. Don't just wing it!
  246. moparisthebest I mean, even if you did, they could repeatedly log in as you and not be able to proceed further? still probably ok
  247. larma has left
  248. larma has joined
  249. Yagizа has left
  250. Kev has left
  251. Kev has joined
  252. Kev has left
  253. Kev has joined
  254. Alex has left
  255. Alex has joined
  256. marc has left
  257. marc has joined
  258. gutuning has left
  259. floretta has left
  260. jonas’ SASL pipelining would still be safe with SCRAM, right?
  261. floretta has joined
  262. floretta has left
  263. floretta has joined
  264. Alex has left
  265. Alex has joined
  266. flow stpeter, xep397 § 6. and the accompaning sasl-ht I-D discuss using 0-rtt data
  267. moparisthebest jonas’, I think if it's safe with SCRAM it's also safe without SCRAM ?
  268. flow so basically, if you do it right™, then instant stream resumption would be a nice use case for 0-rtt data
  269. moparisthebest attackers can't decrypt it, only replay it
  270. flow you just™ have to make sure that you leak nothing else into the 0-rtt data
  271. stpeter flow: thanks for the pointer
  272. jonas’ moparisthebest, PLAIN has no nonce, so if you pipeline all the things the attacker could replay whatever happens in the zeroth round trip I guess?
  273. floretta has left
  274. floretta has joined
  275. moparisthebest how do those differ, I mean, what happens if PLAIN is in early-data vs SASL stuff
  276. moparisthebest I think it's the same result
  277. Zash SCRAM has >0 roundtrips
  278. jonas’ SCRAM has a nonce and a forced round-trip. you cannot do a full authentication with SCRAM with zero round trips. so if you were to replay, you would hit a brick there with SCRAM, while you could probably authenticate with a PLAIN replay.
  279. Kev has left
  280. Kev has joined
  281. Zash If someone does a pipelined PLAIN, bind, and Something, then maybe you could replay that.
  282. gutuning has joined
  283. floretta has left
  284. floretta has joined
  285. marc0s has left
  286. marc0s has joined
  287. Zash All this gets more relevant with {SASL,BIND,*}2
  288. moparisthebest there's a limit to the amount of early-data that can be sent anyway, and I think the server sets it
  289. gutuning has left
  290. floretta has left
  291. floretta has joined
  292. flow moparisthebest, is that limit part of the protocol or a implementation specific thing?
  293. stpeter I believe that 0-RTT is used mainly in HTTP, where the client isn't (typically) authenticating with the server. The fact that XMPP uses TLS+SASL introduces different considerations.
  294. x51 has left
  295. stpeter (I'm also checking with people who know about the use of TLS in protocols like IMAP and SMTP.)
  296. moparisthebest flow, https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8446#section-4.6.1 max_early_data_size
  297. moparisthebest but also, it helps with resumption, which matters a lot for TCP+TLS but not really at all for QUIC because your QUIC connections can survive roaming across endpoints etc
  298. Zash Is resumption used with XMPP at all?
  299. Zash Is TLS* resumption used with XMPP at all?
  300. floretta has left
  301. floretta has joined
  302. Kev has left
  303. Kev has joined
  304. floretta has left
  305. floretta has joined
  306. floretta has left
  307. floretta has joined
  308. marc has left
  309. Kev has left
  310. Kev has joined
  311. floretta has left
  312. floretta has joined
  313. Guus has joined
  314. Guus has left
  315. mac has joined
  316. flow moparisthebest, any idea about the typical value of this paramater?
  317. moparisthebest absolutely no idea, can't find anything with a quick search either
  318. moparisthebest it's a uint32 though if that helps :D
  319. moparisthebest couldn't you just in general say "don't send bind in early-data" for clients ?
  320. DebXWoody has left
  321. squeakylatex has left
  322. debacle has joined
  323. gutuning has joined
  324. gutuning has left
  325. Kiwi has joined
  326. marc0s has left
  327. marc0s has joined
  328. marc0s has left
  329. marc0s has joined
  330. Kev stpeter: We’re not currently doing 0RTT, but we’re very interested in this and want to do so at some point.
  331. gutuning has joined
  332. stpeter Kev: good to know, thanks for the input! We should think about the best ways to do this.
  333. Kev For X2X this would be particularly interesting, and for reduced-RTT client auth.
  334. marc0s has left
  335. marc0s has joined
  336. gutuning has left
  337. marc0s has left
  338. marc0s has joined
  339. marc0s has left
  340. marc0s has joined
  341. marc has joined
  342. asterix has left
  343. asterix has joined
  344. mac has left
  345. mac has joined
  346. floretta has left
  347. marc0s has left
  348. marc0s has joined
  349. lovetox has left
  350. stpeter Indeed. Mobile is likely a key use case.
  351. şişio has left
  352. floretta has joined
  353. wurstsalat has left
  354. marc0s has left
  355. marc0s has joined
  356. gutuning has joined
  357. raghavgururajan has left
  358. marc0s has left
  359. marc0s has joined
  360. Kev has left
  361. Kev has joined
  362. marc has left
  363. Kev has left
  364. Kev has joined
  365. emus has left
  366. stpeter has left
  367. mikeye has joined
  368. marc0s has left
  369. marc0s has joined
  370. Kev has left
  371. Kev has joined
  372. gutuning has left
  373. gutuning has joined
  374. xecks has left