jdev - 2021-06-29


  1. emus has left
  2. nukes4all has joined
  3. Zash has left
  4. nukes4all has left
  5. gutuning has left
  6. gutuning has joined
  7. stpeter has joined
  8. stpeter has left
  9. gutuning has left
  10. gutuning has joined
  11. idk has joined
  12. idk has left
  13. stpeter has joined
  14. idk has joined
  15. stpeter has left
  16. idk has left
  17. junaid has left
  18. junaid has joined
  19. gutuning has left
  20. gutuning has joined
  21. mac has joined
  22. alacer_ has joined
  23. lovetox has joined
  24. gutuning has left
  25. alacer_ has left
  26. gutuning has joined
  27. idk has joined
  28. mac has left
  29. mac has joined
  30. idk has left
  31. Squeaky Latex Folf has left
  32. Squeaky Latex Folf has joined
  33. asterix has left
  34. asterix has joined
  35. şişio has left
  36. mac has left
  37. mac has joined
  38. SouL has left
  39. asterix has left
  40. asterix has joined
  41. stpeter has joined
  42. şişio has joined
  43. mac has left
  44. mac has joined
  45. wurstsalat has joined
  46. stpeter has left
  47. SouL has joined
  48. gutuning has left
  49. gutuning has joined
  50. paul has left
  51. paul has joined
  52. gutuning has left
  53. paul has left
  54. paul has joined
  55. paul has left
  56. paul has joined
  57. emus has joined
  58. asterix has left
  59. asterix has joined
  60. goffi has joined
  61. xecks has joined
  62. asterix has left
  63. asterix has joined
  64. needruhz has joined
  65. needruhz has left
  66. şişio has left
  67. şişio has joined
  68. mikeye has joined
  69. asterix has left
  70. asterix has joined
  71. asterix has left
  72. asterix has joined
  73. stuart.j.mackintosh has joined
  74. şişio has left
  75. FireFly has joined
  76. serge90 has joined
  77. şişio has joined
  78. stuart.j.mackintosh has left
  79. asterix has left
  80. asterix has joined
  81. debacle has joined
  82. Yagizа has joined
  83. asterix has left
  84. asterix has joined
  85. Yagizа has left
  86. mikeye has left
  87. gutuning has joined
  88. asterix has left
  89. asterix has joined
  90. pasdesushi has joined
  91. mikeye has joined
  92. pasdesushi has left
  93. pasdesushi has joined
  94. junaid has left
  95. junaid has joined
  96. şişio has left
  97. marc has joined
  98. stuart.j.mackintosh has joined
  99. pasdesushi has left
  100. pasdesushi has joined
  101. asterix has left
  102. asterix has joined
  103. şişio has joined
  104. pasdesushi has left
  105. pasdesushi has joined
  106. pasdesushi has left
  107. pasdesushi has joined
  108. asterix has left
  109. asterix has joined
  110. gutuning has left
  111. gutuning has joined
  112. pasdesushi has left
  113. pasdesushi has joined
  114. stuart.j.mackintosh has left
  115. stuart.j.mackintosh has joined
  116. asterix has left
  117. stuart.j.mackintosh has left
  118. asterix has joined
  119. stuart.j.mackintosh has joined
  120. sonny has left
  121. debacle has left
  122. asterix has left
  123. asterix has joined
  124. stpeter has joined
  125. serge90 has left
  126. raghavgururajan has left
  127. stpeter has left
  128. Kiwi has joined
  129. pasdesushi has left
  130. pasdesushi has joined
  131. pasdesushi has left
  132. pasdesushi has joined
  133. gutuning has left
  134. gutuning has joined
  135. Zash has joined
  136. pasdesushi has left
  137. pasdesushi has joined
  138. pasdesushi has left
  139. pasdesushi has joined
  140. stpeter has joined
  141. pasdesushi has left
  142. pasdesushi has joined
  143. pasdesushi has left
  144. pasdesushi has joined
  145. asterix has left
  146. asterix has joined
  147. pasdesushi has left
  148. mac has left
  149. mac has joined
  150. lovetox has left
  151. mikeye has left
  152. mac has left
  153. mac has joined
  154. asterix has left
  155. asterix has joined
  156. asterix has left
  157. asterix has joined
  158. gutuning has left
  159. gutuning has joined
  160. Wojtek has joined
  161. marc has left
  162. marc has joined
  163. floretta has left
  164. asterix has left
  165. marc has left
  166. marc has joined
  167. asterix has joined
  168. stpeter has left
  169. asterix has left
  170. asterix has joined
  171. mikeye has joined
  172. lovetox has joined
  173. Yagizа has joined
  174. mikeye has left
  175. mac has left
  176. mac has joined
  177. pasdesushi has joined
  178. asterix has left
  179. asterix has joined
  180. SouL has left
  181. SouL has joined
  182. pasdesushi has left
  183. pasdesushi has joined
  184. lovetox has left
  185. asterix has left
  186. asterix has joined
  187. floretta has joined
  188. pasdesushi has left
  189. pasdesushi has joined
  190. emus has left
  191. emus has joined
  192. pasdesushi has left
  193. pasdesushi has joined
  194. pasdesushi has left
  195. pasdesushi has joined
  196. Alex has left
  197. pasdesushi has left
  198. Alex has joined
  199. pasdesushi has joined
  200. lovetox has joined
  201. pasdesushi has left
  202. pasdesushi has joined
  203. pasdesushi has left
  204. gutuning has left
  205. gutuning has joined
  206. stpeter has joined
  207. gav has left
  208. asterix has left
  209. asterix has joined
  210. sonny has joined
  211. asterix has left
  212. asterix has joined
  213. stpeter has left
  214. Yagizа has left
  215. Yagizа has joined
  216. asterix has left
  217. asterix has joined
  218. asterix has left
  219. asterix has joined
  220. mac has left
  221. gutuning has left
  222. gutuning has joined
  223. asterix has left
  224. asterix has joined
  225. floretta has left
  226. asterix has left
  227. asterix has joined
  228. mac has joined
  229. Ge0rG has left
  230. junaid has left
  231. asterix has left
  232. asterix has joined
  233. Ge0rG has joined
  234. gutuning has left
  235. gutuning has joined
  236. Yagizа has left
  237. Yagizа has joined
  238. stpeter has joined
  239. asterix has left
  240. asterix has joined
  241. Sam Are there any cases where a MUC will send an error when you try to leave it? I don't see any, and I can't imagine why, but do any servers do this for some reason?
  242. şişio has left
  243. gutuning has left
  244. moparisthebest the Hotel California error...
  245. Sam Right now I'm treating all self-presences of type "error" as failed join requests, but I can't tell if that's right.
  246. Sam hah, that took me a second
  247. Kev > moparisthebest > the Hotel California error… You win Tuesday.
  248. jonas’ what is it with hotel california?
  249. flow meh, I don't get the Hotel California reference
  250. flow Sam, typical error case on a MUC leave presence would be if you aren't in the MUC in the first place
  251. asterix has left
  252. asterix has joined
  253. Sam flow: last verse: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BciS5krYL80
  254. Kev You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave.
  255. Sam Good point RE leaving error.
  256. MattJ You can of course get an error for any stanza to a remote server that fails to be delivered
  257. Sam Also a good point.
  258. Sam There is no good way to assiciate an error with the request that created it then; that's unfortunate
  259. MattJ Hmm?
  260. Sam I guess I could keep track of all join/leave requests the user makes then handle self-presences in that order back from the server. This is going to be a pain.
  261. MattJ Oh, I see, in the case that you join the same room multiple times
  262. Sam Oh yah, sorry, trying to figure out what to do if the user calls Join three times and Part twice or something in different orders.
  263. flow is that even possbile? from the same full jid that is?
  264. MattJ It's not possible at a protocol level, but sure it can happen
  265. Sam Multiple joins are a thing; the first will join the others will either change the nick or just re-sync.
  266. Sam I just need to keep track of whether they've joined or not and if it gets out of sync it gets out of sync. It's just how MUC works.
  267. flow so the protocol design flaw in muc is that there is no way to distinguish between a join and a nick change?
  268. Sam That's definitely one of them
  269. Sam I think the main problem is that it's easy for the server and client to get out of sync. Obviously this could always happen in anything due to bugs and what not, but with MUCs it seems common and expected.
  270. MattJ That's not really the flaw. To solve this really you'd need a three-way handshake for joining.
  271. asterix has left
  272. asterix has joined
  273. Kev There is no good way to assiciate an error with the request that created it then; that's unfortunate. The id? And you should know who causes the error because of the by stamp.
  274. Sam What Kev said.
  275. Kev > There is no good way to assiciate an error with the request that created it then; that's unfortunate. The id? And you should know who causes the error because of the by stamp.
  276. MattJ Heh
  277. Sam I don't think there necessarily is an error that will be mirrored, sadly.
  278. Sam An ID, I mean.
  279. MattJ It's a "might" in XEP-0045 for the self presence to have the same id
  280. Sam I didn't think it mentioned it at all, but either way.
  281. MattJ (the text below example 23)
  282. Sam Ah yes, thanks
  283. Sam As always, I'd like to point out that all optional features are basically worthless w/o a way to check if they'll happen or negotiate for them or something.
  284. flow MattJ, not sure why you'd nee a three way handshake. woudln't it be sufficient to make the intent clear in the request: "I want to join this MUC" or "I believe I am already joined in this MUC and want to change my nick to X"
  285. gutuning has joined
  286. MattJ I don't think nick changes are the issue
  287. Sam Okay, I think the issue is actually with my code and I can do this easily enough. To rephrase:
  288. Sam Nevermind, still can't figure out how to phrase this well.
  289. Sam Anyways, thanks for the help; shouldn't be an issue, I just need to keep track of order and direct self-presence errors to whatever handler was next in the order (between join/part/rename handlers)
  290. mac has left
  291. MattJ That sounds like it's just waiting to go wrong
  292. MattJ Use the id
  293. gutuning has left
  294. Kev > It's a "might" in XEP-0045 for the self presence to have the same id I thought the problem was knowing whether it was self presence or a routing error? A routing bounce will have the same id (and should have the bouncer stamped).
  295. MattJ If you send a join request and the join fails, you will get an error reply with the same id
  296. Kev Maybe I’m missing the point.
  297. MattJ I understood the problem to be about when the success/error result gets lost
  298. MattJ Which ordering doesn't solve
  299. Kev Ah.
  300. Kev goes back to lurking
  301. MattJ I may well have misunderstood :)
  302. FireFly has left
  303. Sam The id may not be the same though?
  304. MattJ What makes you think that?
  305. MattJ If a server sends an error in response to a stanza, it will always reflect the id
  306. MattJ Whether that's a failure to join the room, or a delivery error on the way to the MUC, or anything
  307. Sam Didn't the spec literally say 'might'?
  308. Kev 6120? No, I don’t believe so.
  309. MattJ No, the text I pointed out in '45 is about the success case, not the error case
  310. MattJ That aside, it's a prime candidate for something that should be tested in current implementations and tightened up
  311. MattJ We've done that for other things in MUC in recent years, and this is a good candidate
  312. MattJ It doesn't change the fact that you should use the id for errors, and hope that the server also does the same for the success case (optionally have some fallback logic if it doesn't, depending on how common this behaviour is and how robust you want to be against servers that don't do it)
  313. MattJ On the other hand a success is a success, it means you are joined, no matter how many outstanding join requests you have
  314. hardweary has joined
  315. FireFly has joined
  316. DebXWoody has left
  317. DebXWoody has joined
  318. DebXWoody has left
  319. DebXWoody has joined
  320. DebXWoody has left
  321. DebXWoody has joined
  322. DebXWoody has left
  323. DebXWoody has joined
  324. DebXWoody has left
  325. DebXWoody has joined
  326. asterix has left
  327. asterix has joined
  328. DebXWoody has left
  329. DebXWoody has joined
  330. DebXWoody has left
  331. DebXWoody has joined
  332. gutuning has joined
  333. stpeter has left
  334. hardweary has left
  335. DebXWoody has left
  336. DebXWoody has joined
  337. gutuning has left
  338. stpeter has joined
  339. raghavgururajan has joined
  340. marmistrz has left
  341. debacle has joined
  342. stpeter has left
  343. marc has left
  344. marc has joined
  345. marc has left
  346. marc has joined
  347. stpeter has joined
  348. Yagizа has left
  349. Yagizа has joined
  350. şişio has joined
  351. marmistrz has joined
  352. gutuning has joined
  353. stpeter has left
  354. marc has left
  355. nephele has joined
  356. marc has joined
  357. stpeter has joined
  358. lovetox has left
  359. lovetox has joined
  360. stpeter has left
  361. gutuning has left
  362. gutuning has joined
  363. Yagizа has left
  364. Sam has left
  365. paul has left
  366. paul has joined
  367. Sam has joined
  368. Wojtek has left
  369. stpeter has joined
  370. marc has left
  371. SouL has left
  372. gutuning has left
  373. gutuning has joined
  374. SouL has joined
  375. marc has joined
  376. paul has left
  377. paul has joined
  378. goffi has left
  379. stpeter has left
  380. paul has left
  381. paul has joined
  382. paul has left
  383. marc has left
  384. nephele has left
  385. gutuning has left
  386. SouL has left
  387. Vaulor has left
  388. SouL has joined
  389. Vaulor has joined
  390. şişio has left
  391. gav has joined
  392. gav has left
  393. gav has joined
  394. şişio has joined
  395. asterix has left
  396. Kev has left
  397. Kev has joined
  398. stpeter has joined
  399. asterix has joined
  400. stpeter has left
  401. paul has joined
  402. paul has left
  403. paul has joined
  404. paul has left
  405. paul has joined
  406. Kev has left
  407. Kev has joined
  408. marc0s has left
  409. marc0s has joined
  410. Sam Ahhh, right, 6120 guarantees that *errors* mirror the ID, not MUC guarantees that all responses mirror the ID. Gotcha, yah, that makes sense
  411. Sam (sorry, just got back and was catching up on the backlog)
  412. Alex has left
  413. Sam Prosody mirrors the ID on successful presences, ejabberd doesn't.
  414. paul has left
  415. paul has joined
  416. paul has left
  417. paul has joined
  418. idk has joined
  419. pasdesushi has joined
  420. gutuning has joined
  421. debacle has left
  422. paul has left
  423. idk has left
  424. paul has joined
  425. idk has joined
  426. FireFly has left
  427. idk has left
  428. pasdesushi has left
  429. pasdesushi has joined
  430. idk has joined
  431. xecks has left
  432. mikeye has joined
  433. pasdesushi has left
  434. gav has left
  435. şişio has left
  436. gutuning has left
  437. gutuning has joined
  438. raghavgururajan has left
  439. raghavgururajan has joined