jdev - 2021-06-29

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  241. Sam Are there any cases where a MUC will send an error when you try to leave it? I don't see any, and I can't imagine why, but do any servers do this for some reason?
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  244. moparisthebest the Hotel California error...
  245. Sam Right now I'm treating all self-presences of type "error" as failed join requests, but I can't tell if that's right.
  246. Sam hah, that took me a second
  247. Kev > moparisthebest > the Hotel California error… You win Tuesday.
  248. jonas’ what is it with hotel california?
  249. flow meh, I don't get the Hotel California reference
  250. flow Sam, typical error case on a MUC leave presence would be if you aren't in the MUC in the first place
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  253. Sam flow: last verse: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BciS5krYL80
  254. Kev You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave.
  255. Sam Good point RE leaving error.
  256. MattJ You can of course get an error for any stanza to a remote server that fails to be delivered
  257. Sam Also a good point.
  258. Sam There is no good way to assiciate an error with the request that created it then; that's unfortunate
  259. MattJ Hmm?
  260. Sam I guess I could keep track of all join/leave requests the user makes then handle self-presences in that order back from the server. This is going to be a pain.
  261. MattJ Oh, I see, in the case that you join the same room multiple times
  262. Sam Oh yah, sorry, trying to figure out what to do if the user calls Join three times and Part twice or something in different orders.
  263. flow is that even possbile? from the same full jid that is?
  264. MattJ It's not possible at a protocol level, but sure it can happen
  265. Sam Multiple joins are a thing; the first will join the others will either change the nick or just re-sync.
  266. Sam I just need to keep track of whether they've joined or not and if it gets out of sync it gets out of sync. It's just how MUC works.
  267. flow so the protocol design flaw in muc is that there is no way to distinguish between a join and a nick change?
  268. Sam That's definitely one of them
  269. Sam I think the main problem is that it's easy for the server and client to get out of sync. Obviously this could always happen in anything due to bugs and what not, but with MUCs it seems common and expected.
  270. MattJ That's not really the flaw. To solve this really you'd need a three-way handshake for joining.
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  273. Kev There is no good way to assiciate an error with the request that created it then; that's unfortunate. The id? And you should know who causes the error because of the by stamp.
  274. Sam What Kev said.
  275. Kev > There is no good way to assiciate an error with the request that created it then; that's unfortunate. The id? And you should know who causes the error because of the by stamp.
  276. MattJ Heh
  277. Sam I don't think there necessarily is an error that will be mirrored, sadly.
  278. Sam An ID, I mean.
  279. MattJ It's a "might" in XEP-0045 for the self presence to have the same id
  280. Sam I didn't think it mentioned it at all, but either way.
  281. MattJ (the text below example 23)
  282. Sam Ah yes, thanks
  283. Sam As always, I'd like to point out that all optional features are basically worthless w/o a way to check if they'll happen or negotiate for them or something.
  284. flow MattJ, not sure why you'd nee a three way handshake. woudln't it be sufficient to make the intent clear in the request: "I want to join this MUC" or "I believe I am already joined in this MUC and want to change my nick to X"
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  286. MattJ I don't think nick changes are the issue
  287. Sam Okay, I think the issue is actually with my code and I can do this easily enough. To rephrase:
  288. Sam Nevermind, still can't figure out how to phrase this well.
  289. Sam Anyways, thanks for the help; shouldn't be an issue, I just need to keep track of order and direct self-presence errors to whatever handler was next in the order (between join/part/rename handlers)
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  291. MattJ That sounds like it's just waiting to go wrong
  292. MattJ Use the id
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  294. Kev > It's a "might" in XEP-0045 for the self presence to have the same id I thought the problem was knowing whether it was self presence or a routing error? A routing bounce will have the same id (and should have the bouncer stamped).
  295. MattJ If you send a join request and the join fails, you will get an error reply with the same id
  296. Kev Maybe I’m missing the point.
  297. MattJ I understood the problem to be about when the success/error result gets lost
  298. MattJ Which ordering doesn't solve
  299. Kev Ah.
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  301. MattJ I may well have misunderstood :)
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  303. Sam The id may not be the same though?
  304. MattJ What makes you think that?
  305. MattJ If a server sends an error in response to a stanza, it will always reflect the id
  306. MattJ Whether that's a failure to join the room, or a delivery error on the way to the MUC, or anything
  307. Sam Didn't the spec literally say 'might'?
  308. Kev 6120? No, I don’t believe so.
  309. MattJ No, the text I pointed out in '45 is about the success case, not the error case
  310. MattJ That aside, it's a prime candidate for something that should be tested in current implementations and tightened up
  311. MattJ We've done that for other things in MUC in recent years, and this is a good candidate
  312. MattJ It doesn't change the fact that you should use the id for errors, and hope that the server also does the same for the success case (optionally have some fallback logic if it doesn't, depending on how common this behaviour is and how robust you want to be against servers that don't do it)
  313. MattJ On the other hand a success is a success, it means you are joined, no matter how many outstanding join requests you have
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  410. Sam Ahhh, right, 6120 guarantees that *errors* mirror the ID, not MUC guarantees that all responses mirror the ID. Gotcha, yah, that makes sense
  411. Sam (sorry, just got back and was catching up on the backlog)
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  413. Sam Prosody mirrors the ID on successful presences, ejabberd doesn't.
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