jdev - 2021-08-24


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  861. georgeorwell Are there any clients or libaries implementing MIX except of these from Tigase?
  862. Link Mauve slixmpp implements most of MIX, but I haven’t tested it against a server yet.
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  864. Link Mauve There is also some MIX support in xmpp-rs IIRC.
  865. Link Mauve As for clients, Kaidan had some code at some point.
  866. Link Mauve Perhaps Conversations too?
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  869. MattJ Conversations had an experimental branch, yeah
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  876. jonas’ I started something in aioxmpp but then got distracted by the outdated server support on ejabberd
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  911. hiran I realize that I spend a lot of time explaining to users what XMPP is and get an account setup just so they can start using the application I am writing. Thus I am now thinking of a wizard that guides through the account setup. It would rely on XEP-0077 In-Band Registration. As I am using the Smack API, is there support for this usecase or do I have to construct and send stanzas myself? Can someone point me to some example?
  912. jonas’ hiran, you might want to look into the invite-based stuff, too
  913. MattJ https://blog.prosody.im/great-invitations/
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  915. hiran I browsed the great-invitations, and the concept looks good. But I am not owning or operating a server. So how could I have such invites being sent?
  916. MattJ If the target server has open XEP-0077 then simple register URIs (with no invite token) work with many apps already
  917. MattJ xmpp:example.com?register
  918. hiran Sounds good. I am writing an application (or more extending a game to exchange messages via XMPP), It is based on Smack. Is there something already to support XEP-0077 or would I have to do this myself?
  919. jonas’ hiran, might be worthwhile to ask in the smack room
  920. hiran There is one? I was not aware...
  921. jonas’ xmpp:smack@conference.igniterealtime.org?join
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  923. jonas’ not wanting to drive you away, I'm just assuming that the signal/noise ratio w.r.t. smack content is better there.
  924. hiran thx
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  935. southerntofu hiran, just curious what game is it? i heard free software gamedevs recently talk about integrating XMPP/matrix into their ecosystem, if that can interest you :)
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  961. hiran I am experimenting with Oolite. What is matrix?
  962. hiran Ah, the JSON based protocol. When I had a look briefly it sounded good, but then there were no servers, not to talk about missing clients. Therefore I preferred a stable and feature-rich client like Smack...
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  964. flow I am pretty sure that matrix has a lot of servers and clients
  965. hiran Well, I am neither a professional game developer nor a professional XMPP developer. Just giving some effort for something I like. I may have investigated too little on Matrix. However if need be that stuff can probably still be migrated. In the meantime I am quite happy with Smack... :-)
  966. Sam flow: lots of clients, but just one or two that are sort of feature complete and only one working server overall were my impressions? I might be wrong, but it hasn't been that long since I tried to look
  967. southerntofu Sam, yes that's about it. clients are slowly implementing features and two alterntative servers are maturing (dendrite and conduit, golang and rust respectively)
  968. southerntofu hiran, XMPP/matrix from your gamedev perspective answer the same needs so if you're happy with smack just go with it :)
  969. southerntofu (we are, after all, in a Jabber/XMPP dev chatroom :P)
  970. southerntofu (i was simply pointing out that athenaeum project for free-software game launcher wants to integrate matrix not XMPP despite my technical criticism of that)
  971. southerntofu hiran, if you are oolite dev or know them, i had a hard time to find the source link on http://www.oolite.org/ and HTTPS doesn't seem supported
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  973. southerntofu good luck with that project anyway that's pretty cool!
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  987. Sam No office hours today, but I'm bored and trying to procrastinate so I thought I'd start the room anyways in case anyone wants to doodle or co-work or anything: https://socialcoop.meet.coop/sam-pku-dud-niv
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  1028. hiran I am no Oolite dev, the source code to that project is https://github.com/OoliteProject/oolite but my code is currently just hosted on my site. It's in a very early stage...
  1029. hiran my site -> my side. It is nowhere online
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  1141. southerntofu say i want to list all servers who can reach back to me because i'm using a .onion vhost, can i just use XMPP pings for that?
  1142. Zash Should do
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  1147. southerntofu is it considered correct to just establish random s2s sessions and run a ping? or would some servers ocnsider that spam? or not implement XMPP pings at all?
  1148. Zash From a client perspective you'd just send the pings
  1149. southerntofu ah you'd recommend not to setup a test server dedicated to that but using an existing one?
  1150. Zash Or is this a research ethics question?
  1151. southerntofu it's both a technical and netiquette question yes
  1152. Zash As a server developer rather than a philosopher, I'm more qualified for the technical bits
  1153. jonas’ southerntofu, the core of the question should be how you obtain a list of servers to test.
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  1155. Zash You would likely need an established server that can accept incoming connections in order to receive the pongs, to know whether the pings were successful
  1156. jonas’ I know that at least one server operator was annoyed by s.j.n so that I had to prevent their server from being contacted (despite it ending up in the index from time to time for $reasons)
  1157. Zash Sending a ping from a vacuum is .. hard.
  1158. southerntofu Zash, yes i was thinking of using a dedicated prosody vhost for that
  1159. southerntofu jonas’, i was thinking to reuse one of those many "xmpp server lists" :)
  1160. Zash https://xmpp.net/reports.php#onions
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  1165. southerntofu the idea is not to accurately measure the entire ecosystem but just to get a rough idea of the proportion of publicly-reachable servers
  1166. southerntofu who can federate with onions
  1167. southerntofu Zash, this is a list of servers who have their own onion, i'm interested in who can reach me back if i use an onion on my side
  1168. Zash Mhm
  1169. southerntofu some more onion questions were discussed on HN in case that topic is of interest to implementers here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28279131
  1170. moparisthebest > Another example is if you wish to login as user@foobar.com by reaching foobar.onion.
  1171. moparisthebest southerntofu, this *just works (tm)* with SRV records right ?
  1172. Wojtek has joined
  1173. southerntofu yea maybe that example isn't the best, but that's still a common pattern unfortunately
  1174. southerntofu because that's the only way to ensure client-side which address you're connecting to
  1175. southerntofu (instead of blindly trusting the DNS)
  1176. Zash moparisthebest, Tor users hate DNS as much as you hate ports other than 443 😉
  1177. moparisthebest tor users should be doing dns-over-(tls/https/xmpp) over tor to resolve SRV records
  1178. moparisthebest and EVERYONE should be doing DNSSEC
  1179. Zash Hurr durr, why DNSSEC when HTTPS protects us from the cloud??? /s
  1180. moparisthebest but in that particular case, where dns for foobar.com says contact foobar.onion, you aren't blindly trusting DNS, foobar.onion must have a valid TLS cert for foobar.com so it's fine
  1181. southerntofu yes but even DNSSEC has shortcomings and most people are not doing it yet
  1182. southerntofu moparisthebest, actually i didn't think about it but i believe you are right, let me check the spec real quick
  1183. Zash What spec?
  1184. moparisthebest it would be a giant security bug if you didn't make an onion SRV target have a valid TLS cert for the jid domain
  1185. moparisthebest unless DNSSEC is involved, that is
  1186. southerntofu > Client or server MUST set SNI TLS extension to the JID's domain part. (XEP-0368: SRV records for XMPP over TLS)
  1187. Zash Unrelated, was there something getting certificates for .onion domains?
  1188. Zash Unrelated, was there something for getting certificates for .onion domains?
  1189. moparisthebest you can pay big money for them
  1190. southerntofu yeah for HTTP we have to use the ugly Onion-Location hack but since XMPP supports SRV records you are correct that's a fixed problem, my bad and one more point for XMPP ecosystem :D
  1191. southerntofu Zash, usually EV certs yes, but one provider has started to distribute DV certs for cheap but not free
  1192. southerntofu that's pretty recent developments though
  1193. Zash I also wonder if you can generate a certificate out of the .onion service spec + key such that it .. makes sense
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  1198. moparisthebest if JID domain part is .onion, just connect PLAIN or do STARTTLS and ignore cert
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  1200. moparisthebest otherwise no special .onion handling required
  1201. moparisthebest I think that's right...
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  1208. southerntofu moparisthebest, yeah some special handling because if onion is top priority in SRV records then clients who don't understand that will leaks onion address on DNS which is against the threat model of using onion services client side (see Brave browser leaking onion in DNS scandal)
  1209. moparisthebest not proper clients
  1210. southerntofu and if it's lower priority then clients need special treatment if they support tor to move it top of the list
  1211. moparisthebest onion is a reserved TLD like .local that should never be sent to DNS
  1212. southerntofu moparisthebest, .onion reserved name is recent (a couple years?) most software did not implement that yet
  1213. southerntofu like you still find localhost beingresolved over DNS in many software, decades later lol
  1214. moparisthebest "software has bugs" I agree :P
  1215. moparisthebest that's not at all specific to xmpp though
  1216. jonas’ if your security model relies on unaffiliated software doing or not doing something, your security model is seriously flawed
  1217. moparisthebest I also disagree that clients should ignore SRV priorities and move tor to the top of the list by default
  1218. moparisthebest jonas’, I'm saying you can't fix clients not following standards with more standards
  1219. Zash But they do that with Direct TLS?
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  1221. southerntofu moparisthebest, then would you accept negative priorities (if that's even allowed by RFC?) as positive priorities but where it's not standard TCP/IP so the client must pick the names they're able to resolve?
  1222. jonas’ (no)
  1223. Zash unsigned integers
  1224. jonas’ that
  1225. moparisthebest southerntofu, it is standard TCP/IP
  1226. southerntofu moparisthebest, you know what i meant :P
  1227. southerntofu it's TCP used on top of a protocol lots of clients/server don't speak
  1228. southerntofu so tey need to be able to differentiate somehow and clients who understand it should opt-in
  1229. southerntofu the same is true for .i2p, GNS, etc
  1230. southerntofu it's not a tor-specific issue
  1231. moparisthebest if the computer is set up properly, it's just another domain
  1232. moparisthebest if you mean special handling to connect to a local tor socks proxy, ok
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  1234. southerntofu the latter, yes
  1235. southerntofu server-side leaking onions into DNS is less of a problem than client-side where it's personally-identifiable and probably logged by ISP
  1236. Zash But that's not a problem anymore because DNS over (whatever you want), brought to you by Cloudflare
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  1238. southerntofu i agree with your point and sarcasm, but DoH is widely undeployed apart from firefox users
  1239. moparisthebest are we talking about a theoretical xmpp client that uses it's own dns library that doesn't implement the DNS RFC's correctly ?
  1240. Zash I only found out _today_ how to do SRV queries using libc
  1241. southerntofu moparisthebest, no we're talking about 99% of operating systems installed worldwide whose stub resolver doesn't treat .onion specially and happily forwards to the recursive resolver
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  1243. moparisthebest which operating systems ? sounds like they should be fixed
  1244. jonas’ southerntofu, what's the problem with that?
  1245. moparisthebest jonas’, that's illegal https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7686
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  1247. southerntofu moparisthebest, everyone. i don't know a single system that handles that gracefully YET
  1248. Zash report them! https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8962.html
  1249. southerntofu but maybe time has passed and i'm wrong now :)
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  1251. southerntofu haha love that april's fools RFC
  1252. jonas’ moparisthebest, sure, but so is forwarding .local I guess. what's the problem?
  1253. southerntofu and that's why programming and building specifications should be done defensively ^^"
  1254. southerntofu (a sad state of things when you think of it)
  1255. moparisthebest looks like unbound's default config doesn't forward onion https://www.nlnetlabs.nl/documentation/unbound/unbound.conf/
  1256. southerntofu nice, implemented in 2016!
  1257. southerntofu i'm happy to be proved wrong (although i doubt most stub resolvers are so compliant)
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  1260. jonas’ unbound isn't exactly a stub resolver.
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  1262. southerntofu anyway we're going off-topic somewhat, happy to continue discussing onions in privacy@joinjabber.org room
  1263. moparisthebest dnsmasq does not appear to special-case onion
  1264. moparisthebest oh lord why arch why https://github.com/archlinux/svntogit-packages/blob/packages/systemd/trunk/PKGBUILD#L103
  1265. moparisthebest you ever regret digging into source code ?
  1266. jonas’ yeah
  1267. jonas’ what the flying
  1268. jonas’ u drunk
  1269. Zash 9.9.9. ... 10
  1270. southerntofu :( :( :(
  1271. jonas’ .10 is the one without DNSSEC validation
  1272. jonas’ why would they do that
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  1274. jonas’ ah, because there's no quad9 choice for !filtering && dnssec
  1275. southerntofu assuming onion discovery via SRV, maybe leaking onion query isn't that bad in fact?
  1276. moparisthebest systemd-resolved doesn't seem to special-case onion either
  1277. southerntofu since the resolver already knows the DNS address you're trying to reach (for which you made an SRV query)
  1278. moparisthebest hopefully DNS resolving libraries do but I think I'll go bury my head in the sand now
  1279. southerntofu moparisthebest, aaaaaand that's why we need more compliance suites/tests :D
  1280. southerntofu worst case would be if you enter user@foobar.onion, then a leak would be dangerous but unfortunately that can only be controlled client-side by special-casing .onion
  1281. emus What would you people think of renaming the channel into for example "Jabber Development"?
  1282. moparisthebest > ./src/lib/ares_search.c: /* Per RFC 7686, reject queries for ".onion" domain names with NXDOMAIN. */ > ./src/lib/ares_search.c: if (ares__is_onion_domain(name)) THANK YOU C-ARES
  1283. moparisthebest now I will log off hoping all other DNS libraries are equally good... :)
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  1285. jonas’ reasonable plan
  1286. jonas’ good night
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  1290. southerntofu emus, you'd like to remove XMPP from the name or?
  1291. southerntofu not sure where my client displays the room name but i think it's "Jabber/XMPP Development" (or is that the start of description?)
  1292. Zash I don't think this channel has a title
  1293. southerntofu ah :)
  1294. Zash "Jabber/XMPP Development" as description and there's a longer subject/topic
  1295. southerntofu i've never really understood the difference between topic/description
  1296. southerntofu is there one at all?
  1297. Zash There is a slight semantic difference
  1298. southerntofu yes but in practice is this difference reflected in client UX?
  1299. Zash description is shown to those on the outside and would describe the channel, while topic is shown to current participants and would reflect the current topic
  1300. southerntofu is there a server-side setting either in room config or server-wide to "sync" both entries?
  1301. Zash Never heard of such a thing
  1302. Zash They're for different audiences
  1303. southerntofu sounds troublesome to edit both at the same time, when they're supposed to be the same (i don't think i've ever used different topic/description intentionally but i definitely have by accident)
  1304. Zash They're _not_ the same
  1305. Zash I don't think I've ever seen a room that had the same topic as description
  1306. southerntofu well unless you'd like to send the same message to both audiences which is my usecase.. is that "wrong"?
  1307. Zash There's no right or wrong
  1308. Zash Except what you suggest!!!!1!1 😛
  1309. southerntofu :P
  1310. Zash This has been discussed in the past, but there was consensus on keeping all 3 fields.
  1311. Zash IIRC MIX doesn't have subject, instead lets you pin messages. Unless I dreamed that.
  1312. southerntofu sure i'm not saying it should be outright deprecated on the protocol level, but i always found it confusing personally.. for a long time i thought /topic was a shortcut to edit room description, and i was wondering why i would get inconsistent topic depending on where i see it from (because they're different things!)
  1313. Zash Join because reasons! goes in description Stay because reasons! goes in topic 🤷️
  1314. southerntofu Zash, i don't remmeber anything about pinning but you're correct about subject https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0369.html#not-subject
  1315. Zash The discussion may have been in context of MIX, maybe
  1316. southerntofu i also believe that subject is inherited from IRC-like experience where there was a single field for all information, and it may predate name/description (wild guess!)
  1317. Zash name comes from xep-0030 probably
  1318. Zash oh yes, there's name AND title!
  1319. Zash Those are generally the same string tho
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  1322. southerntofu wait where's title in all there?
  1323. Zash In the disco#info response
  1324. Zash name is part of disco#items listings
  1325. southerntofu my browser doesn't find anything on XEP-0030 when i search for "title" (well it finds stuff in appendix)
  1326. Zash https://paste.debian.net/hidden/39204b09/
  1327. southerntofu ah yes in here it's the same as name
  1328. southerntofu so how crazy would it be to do the same with topic/description if a setting is enabled?
  1329. Zash I think that's actually some fallback behavior in Prosody that sets it to the localpart if it's empty
  1330. southerntofu ah
  1331. Zash Well for someone who doesn't expect that, it would leak something they expect to be limited to those who can and have joined
  1332. Zash ... to the public
  1333. Zash or at least to anyone who can send a disco query to the right address
  1334. southerntofu in my view it sort of makes sense? "can room be listed publicly?" -> topic is public
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  1336. Zash 🤷️
  1337. Zash Color me sceptical
  1338. southerntofu i don't understand the usecase where you want your room listed publicly (so others can join) but not a public topic :D
  1339. Zash Trivial to do of course
  1340. Zash Hm
  1341. Zash The topic/subject is broadcast to everyone on change
  1342. Zash Title, description and other room config changes are just broadcast as a single "the room config changed" signal
  1343. Zash So interested clients can re-disco#info if they want to
  1344. Zash But if you sync them, you'd get the same data twice
  1345. southerntofu yeah that's also something i always found confusing, a diff insead of a clueless message would be nice
  1346. southerntofu (although i believe that message is broadcast even when no change occurred)
  1347. Zash Maybe some sort of publish-subscribe based thing for mediating exchange of messages?
  1348. Zash and other info
  1349. southerntofu haha that sounds so good
  1350. southerntofu is there a working group / MUC dedicated to MIX implementation?
  1351. Zash Title+Description also gets published on https://search.jabber.network/
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  1365. me9 Which xmpp.org muc is the most fitting to ask about and discuss XEPs? This one?
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