jdev - 2021-10-17

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  142. lovetox

    does a element name like <stream:stream> in xml has a special meaning because of the ":" or is this just a element name like any other and ":" has no special meaning

  143. lovetox

    i tried to find it in the xml spec, but this thing is unreadable for me

  144. flow

    lovetox, IIRC it has no special meaning if there are no XML namespaces

  145. flow

    I think https://www.w3.org/TR/xml-names/ is what gives ":" in xml element names a special semantic

  146. flow

    So as soon as you use namespaces, which is probably true for most practical usages of XML, it has a special meaning

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  149. MattJ

    Including in XMPP

  150. flow

    lovetox, but I am curious, as it look like there is some more backstory to this question. if so, would you mind elaborating a bit? :)

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  153. lovetox

    the backstory is i try to rewrite the nbxmpp streamparser and now i have to understand this :)

  154. flow

    lovetox, I'd hoped that python has a good xml pull parser library that you could re-use?

  155. flow

    otherwise I feel like you will hit a few xml trapdoors and probably re-work your implementation 2-3 times :)

  156. flow

    but you will learn a lot about XML in the process, so not sure if this will be a loss, just be prepared

  157. MattJ

    500% use an existing parser

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  159. MattJ

    Please please please

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  161. flow

    make sure to look at existing APIs. I think Java's StAX is a very good example of an XML stream parser

  162. jonas’

    the standard library parser is good enough for that

  163. jonas’

    it is based on Expat and does SAX

  164. jonas’

    please use that.

  165. MattJ

    expat is a great choice

  166. Zash

    just remember to disable all the security holes

  167. jonas’

    it can be used non-blockingly. If you need proof, look at aioxmpp.

  168. Zash

    at least that's easier than reinventing the security holes yourself

  169. lovetox

    calm down, i use expat

  170. flow

    jonas’, isn't SAX a push parser? when can those not be used non-blockingly?

  171. lovetox

    still need to understand xml namespaces

  172. MattJ

    I think recent expat versions have more sensible defaults, though forbidden XMPP stuff will still need handling

  173. jonas’

    lovetox, do you? the parser should do all that for you.

  174. jonas’

    (and expat does if you ask nicely)

  175. jonas’

    (and by extension, the python standard library xml module does)

  176. flow

    I think you need to understand XML when parsing XML, and even if not, it can't hurt ;)

  177. jonas’

    https://github.com/horazont/aioxmpp/blob/devel/aioxmpp/xml.py#L818-L1111 explicitly waiving the infectiousness of the *GPL for you, lovetox, if you need/use that as inspiration.

  178. lovetox

    jonas’, if i search for nx prefix in that code, i find a lot of matches

  179. lovetox

    thanks flow, that document did help to understand prefixes :)

  180. jonas’


  181. lovetox


  182. lovetox

    regarding your comment, that its not necessary to understand and python xml libs do it for you

  183. MattJ

    The summary is that the element called "foo" in one namespace is not the same as the element called "foo" in another namespace. A namespace is identified by a string, usually found in the 'xmlns' attribute. Prefixes are simply a more concise replacement for adding 'xmlns' attributes everywhere (you declare them once and use them as many times as you want)

  184. MattJ

    This looks like a sane explanation: http://tech.usgin.org/content/xml-namespaces-and-prefixes

  185. MattJ

    XMPP is heavily based on XML namespaces, so understanding them is not really optional for an XMPP dev. But a good parser (such as expat) will save you from having to handle all the rules (such as inheritance) yourself, and it will tell you what namespace every element is in (regardless of whether it used a prefix or an xmlns attribute)

  186. lovetox

    yes that would be nice

  187. lovetox

    i just tested expat

  188. lovetox

    and it does not handle it

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  190. lovetox

    at least the expat api that is accessible via python

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  194. lovetox

    hm altough some examples show it does, maybe i need to investigate this more

  195. lovetox

    Expat can optionally do XML namespace processing for you, enabled by providing a value for namespace_separator

  196. lovetox

    oh i did specify that :)

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  199. jonas’

    lovetox, check that: https://github.com/horazont/aioxmpp/blob/devel/aioxmpp/xml.py#L1106-L1111

  200. lovetox

    jonas’, i use currently xml.parsers.expat.ParserCreate

  201. lovetox

    is there any benefit of using the sax module?

  202. jonas’

    less boiler plate to write I guess

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  205. jonas’

    I strongly suggest to go with the high-level SAX API, it saves you worrying about namespace prefixes and stuff.

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  208. lovetox

    ok i look into it

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  257. lovetox

    and all the prefix stuff is just to save on size? it does not add some new feature to xml? so if a client does not use ns prefixes at all its perfectly fine?

  258. Zash

    prefix stuff is generally not used in XMPP, apart from for <stream:stream> and Dialback

  259. Zash

    Does it not add the ability to namespace attributes? I.e how else would you say `<e xmlns:foo="urn:example:ns" foo:bar="blah"/>` ?

  260. Zash

    (Which is also pretty rare in XMPP)

  261. lovetox

    yeah it does, forgot about the attribute stuff

  262. lovetox

    its weird in one example the stream prefix is used

  263. lovetox

    in others not in the rfc

  264. Zash


  265. Zash

    Like `<stream ....` ? Probably just to make the examples more compact

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  268. lovetox

    for example here its used

  269. lovetox


  270. lovetox


  271. lovetox

    here than suddenly missing from the features

  272. Zash


  273. lovetox

    i think they want to make a point that it can be used

  274. Zash

    But doesn't it also say that you should encode the stream as `<stream:stream ...>` ?

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  277. Zash


  278. lovetox

    oh .. wait

  279. lovetox

    its not optional

  280. lovetox

    if we want to define a default namespace of jabber:client in <stream>

  281. lovetox

    you need a prefix if <stream> should not have jabber:client

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  285. lovetox

    is this example not wrong here

  286. lovetox

    S2: <stream from='example.net' id='hTiXkW+ih9k2SqdGkk/AZi0OJ/Q=' to='im.example.com' version='1.0' xmlns='http://etherx.jabber.org/streams'>

  287. lovetox

    it does not define a default namespace of jabber:client or server

  288. Zash

    `<stream xmlns="http://etherx.jabber.org/streams"><message xmlns="jabber:client"/></stream>` == `<stream:stream xmlns:stream="http://etherx.jabber.org/streams" xmlns="jabber:client"><message/></stream>`

  289. Zash

    `<stream xmlns="http://etherx.jabber.org/streams"><message xmlns="jabber:client"/></stream>` == `<stream:stream xmlns:stream="http://etherx.jabber.org/streams" xmlns="jabber:client"><message/></stream:stream>`

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  291. lovetox

    hm yeah

  292. lovetox

    but without defining it on the stream element, this would indeed be very wasteful

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  295. Zash

    So if you could be certain that the other end of the stream understands namespaces and prefixes fully, you could cut down on repeated namespace declaration for common things. Like imagine `<sm:r/>` instead of `<r xmlns="urn:xmpp:sm:3"/>`

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  300. Zash

    This was a triumph! I'm making a note here: HUGE SUCCESS!

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