jdev - 2021-11-28

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  98. Martin WTH.
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  101. Martin just answered a "new" mail from juser and realized later that it was from december 2020.
  102. Martin Is the date setting on the sending site wrong or did juser take almost one year to deliver that message?
  103. Martin https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/juser/2020-December/007186.html
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  132. defanor FWIW, "Received" headers usually contain timestamps, so you may be able to track when it went where, according to the servers adding those headers, and compare to user-set "Date".
  133. defanor I happened to receive a reply to a message from April just yesterday, maybe it's the delayed message delivery day.
  134. Zash Perhaps it was triggered by the configuration change mentioned in https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/council/2021-November/004520.html
  135. Martin > Received: from NAM12-DM6-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com > (mail-dm6nam12olkn2074.outbound.protection.outlook.com []) > by atlas.jabber.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BBAF089D > for <juser@jabber.org>; Tue, 29 Dec 2020 19:15:31 +0000 (UTC)
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  153. lovetox i find it really ugly
  154. lovetox that resource binding is done via IQ
  155. Zash YES
  156. lovetox why though, i mean there was probably a history or story behind this
  157. Zash Welcome to the sensible camp! Let's give angry stares to those who think everything in session startup should be iq stanzas 😉
  158. Zash lovetox, behold this horror: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0078.html
  159. Zash I remember doing that with telnet 900 years ago
  160. lovetox but it makes no sense, reading the rfc, its only nonzas all the way, and then suddenly they start with stanzas BEFORE WE HAVE A JID :D
  161. Zash I think "nonzas" were invented at the time of IETF standardization
  162. lovetox title is enough for me, to not read that
  163. Zash Scroll down to https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0078.html#example-3 and cry
  164. Zash Tho it was easier to type that into telnet than doing SCRAM in your head 😉
  165. Zash or even PLAIN
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  167. Zash lovetox, do you have a moment to talk about our lord and savior, https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0386.html ? ;)
  168. Zash and https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0388.html
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  170. Zash and https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0389.html
  171. Zash the holy trinity of XMPP 2.0 connection establishing
  172. lovetox yes, im interested in that, is there some working support in prosody for that?
  173. Zash I had a prototype / WIP somewhere
  174. Zash Hopefully there'll be more time to work on that after Prosody 0.12 gets out the door.
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  176. lovetox also something very ugly
  177. lovetox every stanza has a type attribute with a value
  178. lovetox except presence, it can just be absent
  179. Zash message too
  180. Zash only iq is strict
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  182. lovetox no with message its just an optimization
  183. lovetox you can leave it out but that means "normal"
  184. lovetox for presence there is no default
  185. Zash Only having to send `<presence/>` to go online is nice tho.
  186. lovetox makes writing stanza handlers fun, now you need to add code for the single case, where you want to match on the absence of an attribute
  187. lovetox Zash, no problem with that, just assign a default like with message
  188. lovetox presence type=normal
  189. lovetox or something
  190. Zash how about 'available' to mirror 'unavailable' ?
  191. Zash and then hide that in abstractions so it serializes out to None or whathaveyou
  192. jonas’ enums! :)
  193. lovetox actually i do that, with show
  194. jonas’ and that broke everything?
  195. Zash boolean?
  196. lovetox no works quite well
  197. lovetox i simply have a added, Show.AVAILABLE
  198. lovetox but yeah this is the next ugly thing with presence
  199. lovetox you commnicate your state with show
  200. lovetox but not if you are available
  201. lovetox then its absent
  202. lovetox now you need everytime to check 2 things, actually type must be absent AND show must be absent
  203. lovetox and no problem with optimizations on the stream with default values etc
  204. lovetox but to have nothing, puts library developers in the situation to add stuff thats not in the standard to make things sane
  205. Zash Abstractions gonna abstract
  206. lovetox i really just wonder, that rfc was written over some weeks or months whatever, some inital idea and it was like Presence: Ok most things can be absent, we dont need defaults, just the absence is enough IQ: Nothing is allowed to be absent Message: Lets allow something to be absent, but we define a default
  207. Zash The initial RFCs were written years after Jabber was already a thing
  208. lovetox ok so this was like some thing that needed to be backwards compatible from the start
  209. lovetox ?
  210. Zash Jabber was launched in 1999, the IETF standardization happened around 2002-2005 I think (I wasn't involved in any of this back then)
  211. Zash Historical Reasons, yes 🙂
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  213. lovetox i found something debatable
  214. lovetox prosody answers a bind request with
  215. lovetox <iq type='result' id='myid'><bind xmlns='urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:xmpp-bind'><jid>lovetox@jabber.fr/test</jid></bind></iq>
  216. lovetox no from on the jid would mean this iq is from the user account
  217. lovetox no from on the stanza would mean this iq is from the user account
  218. Zash I've found it safest for my own sanity to not think of those as actual iq stanzas
  219. lovetox should it not be instead from the server? so from=jabber.fr
  220. Zash Instead, pretend that's a nonza that just happens to be called <iq xmlns="jabber:client">
  221. Zash to and from are only allowed on real stanzas
  222. Zash before you've bound a resource, those don't even make sense
  223. Zash Prosody even treats it as a nonza
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  225. lovetox rfc does also not include a from in its example for bind
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  227. Zash Oh, there it is
  228. Zash https://modules.prosody.im/mod_sasl2.html
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  259. lovetox it gets more funny if you consider error cases while binding
  260. lovetox in iq errors the original query is not mandatory included
  261. lovetox then you dont even have the bind namespace
  262. lovetox but i guess the iq stanza id ..
  263. jonas’ also there can be no other stanza in flight at that point
  264. lovetox i hate to break the promise to the application that every iq has a from address
  265. jonas’ then don't
  266. lovetox only because of this one case ...
  267. jonas’ treat it as a nonza
  268. lovetox thats hard
  269. lovetox then i need to make an exception at the parser level
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  271. lovetox but i guess i could do this
  272. lovetox so it does not end up as a type IQ
  273. Zash in prosody nothing is a stanza until after resource binding
  274. Zash tho that's handled above the parser, nearer the routing
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  276. lovetox right now the parser translates parsed elements based on tag and namespace to respective classes
  277. lovetox and later i dispatch depending on the type
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  281. lovetox jonas’, i dont know how much you have typed your lib, but such things are not just a problem because you have to create some exception in your code somewhere
  282. lovetox its your IQ object now returns on get_from() suddenly None or JID
  283. jonas’ lovetox, I register the stream-level elements dynamically
  284. jonas’ that's why it's not a problem
  285. lovetox which is incredibly ugly for applications
  286. lovetox becuse they now get lots of typing errors, if they dont always check for None
  287. jonas’ and from gets rewritten early in the code which knows about stanzas
  288. jonas’ to be consistent
  289. lovetox ok i will try to make it into a weird iq nonza :D
  290. lovetox lets see how that works out
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  319. Zash okay, I made an https://modules.prosody.im/mod_bind2.html to go with https://modules.prosody.im/mod_sasl2.html
  320. Zash ... consisting to 80% of TODOs 🙂
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  386. thomaslewis Does it at least function semi-properly?
  387. Zash thomaslewis, you tell me!
  388. thomaslewis ejabberd here, so...
  389. thomaslewis needs to get back to writing IdleRPG for XMPP at some point...
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