jdev - 2021-12-13


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  327. jonas’ nephele, you said logs? /dev/mapper/adrastea-var--log 4.6G 4.6G 0 100% /var/log
  328. nephele Excelent
  329. Zash ringbuffer the whole thing!
  330. pulkomandy has left
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  332. jonas’ it was influxdb whining about not being able to write to its storage (which -ENOSPC'd yesterday, as you might remember) :)
  333. Zash Resonance cascade!
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  336. nephele I once had haiku roll over it's syslog once per second because HDA spammed it full of errors :)
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  357. tom Hey what is a good library for writing some XMPP automation tooling in Perl?
  358. Ge0rG Python.
  359. jonas’ I was about to say something similar ;D
  360. tom no that's a programming language
  361. tom I need an XMPP library
  362. moparisthebest Good luck
  363. Zash libpcre? ;)
  364. Ge0rG tom: you can call into python as `/usr/bin/python3 xmppbot.py` from perl
  365. tom please no trolling
  366. jonas’ there is no sensible library for perl
  367. jonas’ so this is the best we can do ;)
  368. Ge0rG https://xmpp.org/software/libraries/ - no perls.
  369. jonas’ tom, depending on what you intend to do, you might be able to get away with an HTTP library and any of the HTTP<->XMPP modules for prosody.
  370. jonas’ mod_rest or somesuch
  371. Zash https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/blob/master/data/libraries.json has 2 perl
  372. tom I found https://metacpan.org/pod/Net::XMPP and https://metacpan.org/pod/Net::XMPP3
  373. tom but i'm wondering if there are some better libs
  374. moparisthebest tom: I wrote sendxmpp replacements for the original perl sendxmpp because it quit working years ago
  375. Zash net::XMPP and AnyEvent::XMPP, but since nobody has claimed that they are maintained, they are excluded from the listing on the website
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  377. stuart.j.mackintosh tom: the Perl devs are either on IRC or Slack - I can conect you to the Slack channel if you like, and I might be able to connect you up with the module developer
  378. stuart.j.mackintosh Would be great to get XMPP conversations in the Perl & Raku community, they might consider dropping Slack at some point. An evaluation was made of XMPP vs a bunch of other messaging platforms a while ago, no conclusion was made so Slack remained.
  379. tom stuart.j.mackintosh, if you could connect me that would be great, but i'm not willing to download a binary blob to my computer and run it from a shady adtech company. Maybe you could let me use a network transport of some kind? I'm not opposed to paying money for a well supported development library/toolkit as long as it's fully open and auditable. One thing in particular I find really weird is that a lot of libraries on CPAN all stopped development in 2014. The same perculilar thing happened to a lot of open source GIS software on the osm wiki. at least 5 different open routing engines all completely stopped development in 2014. Was there a particular event going on at that time or a brain draon?
  380. stuart.j.mackintosh IRC is the open option for the Perl community right now. I am encouraging a move to XMPP there (as I am in many places) however find that there is similar misinformation about XMPP in Perl land, as there is about Perl in XMPP land. For now, Slack is the space, and I understand why that is a barrier.
  381. stuart.j.mackintosh If you see developer names in the modules that you would like to be connected with, drop me a direct message. I wasnt so close to the community around 2014 so don't have insight in to the causes.
  382. Zash XMPP is a protocol, Slack is a product. Comparing them is not going to produce useful results
  383. stuart.j.mackintosh Zash - yes, that was my argument
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  385. stuart.j.mackintosh The users didn't want to think about that, they wanted to send messages.
  386. Zash And there sadly aren't many things in the XMPP world targeting the Slack use case.
  387. stuart.j.mackintosh Movim is reasonable, however seems to have imperfect alignment to other clients
  388. stuart.j.mackintosh Movim is a reasonable Slack competitor on XMPP, however seems to have imperfect alignment to other clients
  389. stuart.j.mackintosh > And there sadly aren't many things in the XMPP world targeting the Slack use case. My view is that many of the Slack features are not relevant to most users anyway, it creates other barriers, and XMPP is a better fit for the needs of the Perl & Raku commuities anyway.
  390. tom stuart.j.mackintosh, isn't that a smartphone app?
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  393. tom oh
  394. tom also
  395. stuart.j.mackintosh tom are you asking if Slack is a smartphone app?
  396. tom is the story any different for Raku XMPP libraries?
  397. tom stuart.j.mackintosh, no i was asking about movim?
  398. pep. It's a web app
  399. stuart.j.mackintosh Movim is a web client for XMPP, and it also has a mobile app.
  400. pep. Which is just a PWA nowadays
  401. Zash I thought it was a server-side client
  402. pep. Yeah it's a server-side client really :P
  403. stuart.j.mackintosh yes, more than jsut a web client
  404. stuart.j.mackintosh therefore behaves more like Slack
  405. Zash There is a mobile Movim app tho, IIRC
  406. stuart.j.mackintosh yes, never used it though
  407. tom this one had an update in 2017 https://github.com/kalkin/Net-XMPP
  408. pep. Zash, as I said, it's just a PWA now
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  413. stuart.j.mackintosh > is the story any different for Raku XMPP libraries? TBH I haven't looked.
  414. pep. (That is, go to your instance, add a shortcut to your phone or sth)
  415. stuart.j.mackintosh > this one had an update in 2017 https://github.com/kalkin/Net-XMPP Grants are available - if what you are asking could be useful in a general sense, it might be possible to arrange for a dev to recieve a foundation grant
  416. tom pep., I really upsets me the ignorance and obtuseness of the developers that accept that kind of thing >=(
  417. pep. hmm?
  418. pep. You're ranting about devs providing software for users? Not sure I understand
  419. pep. It's that or.. nothing
  420. tom > (That is, go to your instance, add a shortcut to your phone or sth)
  421. pep. What's wrong about that
  422. tom 'webapps' being good enough
  423. tom lack of native software
  424. tom lets all just use an information silo
  425. pep. Webapps requiring more code / maintainance
  426. tom ATTENTION REQUIRED | ONE MORE STEP
  427. pep. I'm sure edhelas would be more than happy to have you help him with this
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  429. pep. Sometimes it's also nice not to assume people to this out of malice. We all have a life
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  432. tom to be clear, mainly what i'm trying to do is send IQ stanzas
  433. tom not send messages
  434. stuart.j.mackintosh > this one had an update in 2017 https://github.com/kalkin/Net-XMPP This is a Perl 6 (now Raku) module
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  455. tom >XMPP can pretty much covers what ActivityPub offers (feeds, comments, articles publication) with a lot more related features (presences, contact list, video-conferencing, chatrooms…). Also, social features on XMPP are basically Atom 1.0 on top of Pubsub, so no need to convert Atom to some new JSON format, you simply embed it! (ArsTechnica on XMPP Pubsub https://nl.movim.eu/?node/news.movim.eu/ArsTechnica, or my personnal blog https://nl.movim.eu/?blog/edhelas@movim.eu). Is there any software that actually implements the client end of this?
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  457. tom my feed reader doesn't seem to support xmpp pubsub
  458. tom only http
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  461. Link Mauve tom, Movim and Libervia are two known examples.
  462. tom but movim requires html5/chrome
  463. Link Mauve /Firefox
  464. tom firefox isn't a real option anymore
  465. Link Mauve /any WebKit browser
  466. tom it's 97% funded by google
  467. Link Mauve Has it ever not been?
  468. tom html5 isn't a dependency I want to be forced to rely on for realtime communication
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  472. Link Mauve So no GTK, no HTML, no Python… Which technologies do you actually accept? ^^'
  473. tom Link Mauve, before HTML5 and with XHTML yes there was quite a lot of diversity in practicaly usable implemenations
  474. pep. I was gonna say you can use jp, from the libervia suite, but yeah it's all Python.
  475. Link Mauve Do you know that HTML5 can also be serialised as XHTML, and that most websites which pretended to do XHTML actually only used HTML?
  476. nephele >So no GTK, no HTML, no Python BeApi
  477. Link Mauve Renga might then be a good one for you. :D
  478. Link Mauve Although it doesn’t support PubSub yet.
  479. tom no webshit in my native software
  480. tom i didn't say i had a problem with html
  481. nephele As the Renga co- maintainer i am forced to agree
  482. Link Mauve Don’t worry, Haiku is still not very good at this web thing.
  483. nephele :P
  484. tom just html5
  485. nephele Link mauve: rude, i'm upstreaming webkit patches as we speak!
  486. Link Mauve tom, so the additional few elements are the thing you dislike?
  487. edhelas Damn, Movim is developed with Firefox mostly, so you mean that I'm working with a non existing solution anymore 🤔
  488. Link Mauve nephele, the last time WebPositive failed at rendering my website properly. :p
  489. tom Link Mauve, I've written about this issue here: https://www.nuegia.net/articles/open%20letter%20to%20webmasters.xhtml
  490. nephele I think that is fixed Link Mauve
  491. nephele which site was it?
  492. Link Mauve Oh, I’ll test it again then!
  493. Link Mauve https://pytouhou.linkmauve.fr/
  494. nephele Well, the SVG image part is broken anyhow still, but that isn't specific to you... and i still havent investigated that, if there is anything other specific you might want to make a ticket
  495. Link Mauve That’s it I think.
  496. Link Mauve I quite like SVG, so I use it wherever I can.
  497. Link Mauve (My avatar says hi!)
  498. tom and it's not that I won't use python
  499. nephele tom: would be cool if your site used the dark mode thing though ;)
  500. Link Mauve Then jp as pep. suggested might be good for you, it’s part of Libervia.
  501. tom it's that if I'm building a new technology of my own, I don't want to base it on python which will become deprecated in a few years and force changes just because guido thinks it's better
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  503. tom i need a stable foundation
  504. nephele Link Mauve: ah yes i see, if you make the viewport bigger they all render
  505. nephele your site is an excelent testcase, i can use it to investigate the svg drawing issues :)
  506. tom nephele, provide your own CSS for that
  507. Link Mauve Nice!
  508. Link Mauve I don’t have a big screen atm, so 1366×768 is all I can afford.
  509. nephele tom: :root { color-scheme: light dark; }
  510. tom nephele, if you make a css for my site that looks nice and is dark i'll include it as a alternative stylesheet
  511. nephele It's not an alternate stylesheet, just a media querry, otherwise it will not work with the dark mode option
  512. tom yeah i'm not doin that
  513. tom the only browsers that actually implement that are google chrome and firefox
  514. tom and only the latest versions
  515. nephele Somehow, WebPositive does it just fine...
  516. tom that aren't very portable or run on older hardware
  517. tom I don't care about technologies that require gigabytes of ram to just render a paragraph of text on a screen
  518. tom that's retarded
  519. Link Mauve I just tested, Movim runs fine in Epiphany.
  520. Link Mauve Which is based on neither Chromium nor Firefox.
  521. Zash What about NetSurf?
  522. tom Zash, netsurf fully implements XHTML1.1 and CSS2
  523. tom though
  524. tom it sems to have some bug with tiled background textures
  525. tom but it still renders
  526. tom i'm really rooting for netsurf
  527. Link Mauve Ah, but Movim in Epiphany still has the issue that messages from a MUC are all duplicated… edhelas?
  528. nephele https://nheko-im.neko.dev/_matrix/media/r0/download/nheko.im/VmdbNWiKsDFkvJpnQjTCLnqk
  529. tom nephele, what browser is that running on haiku?
  530. nephele Normally WebPositive, HaikuLauncher is just a launcher for webkit directly
  531. tom and what renderer does webpositive use?
  532. nephele The same one
  533. tom webkit?
  534. nephele Yes
  535. tom nephele, why is there a comma instead of a period in your memory monitor?
  536. tom that is meant to be a period right?
  537. tom also can webkit be had directly or only through qtwebkit?
  538. Link Mauve AFAIK QtWebKit is abandonned, it’s now QtWebEngine based on Chromium.
  539. tom why is your memory usage so low with webkit? webkit on my system wants to gobble up hundreds of megs and still be dirt slow with tons of mutex issues and segfaults
  540. nephele No, it's ment to be a comma, it's different to the american notation. but it does mean what you expect: the devider to indicate where to split the main part from the fractions
  541. Link Mauve There is still WebKit2GTK which is alive and kicking.
  542. nephele tom: qtwebkit is unmaintained, don't use it really. we have our own port called haikuwebkit
  543. tom nephele, does your port have mutex issues?
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  546. nephele haikuwebkit uses the native memory allocator anyhow, and native apis for most stuff
  547. tom and do you have a element blocker similar in functionality to ublock origin and nmatrix?
  548. nephele thus the low memory requirements, it's not that much of a damn blackbox like chromium
  549. tom interesting
  550. tom is there a linux or bsd port of haikuwebkit?
  551. nephele not sure what you mean with mutex issues, for the second part: no we do not. Webkit itself has an incredibly fast api for this blocking stuff but it's not activated in our port yet :/ for now you'd have to use hosts or something
  552. tom nephele, well I've used otter-browser and the kde falcon thing
  553. nephele >is there a linux or bsd port of haikuwebkit? No, also because there are no haiku apis on linux ;), you can use epiphany though, the gnome browser based on webkit
  554. tom they had major issues freezing and locking up the whole program during loading of network resources
  555. tom omg fucking gnome shit
  556. tom no thanks
  557. nephele kde falcon uses qtwebengine/chromium afaik
  558. tom there's gotta be an option though
  559. tom nephele, it used to use webkit
  560. nephele yes.. but qtwebkit is ancient
  561. nephele and it was always stuck on webkitlegacy
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  564. nephele I think there is a vi-like browser based on webkit for linux too?
  565. tom I WILL NOT BE ASSIMILATED you here?
  566. Link Mauve If you don’t want to use Epiphany, you also have Midori which uses webkit2gtk on Linux.
  567. tom Link Mauve, does that have any dependency on gtk3?
  568. Link Mauve It’s in the name.
  569. Link Mauve webkit2gtk.
  570. nephele kind of ironic that kde doesn't have webkit really... considering they are responsible for khtml
  571. Link Mauve Although maybe a port to gtk4 is in progress?
  572. tom if it's gtk2 it's fine, but i don't know if that's webkit version 2 or gtk version 2
  573. tom if it's any gtk version 3 or newer i can't use it
  574. nephele webkit2 is just an api
  575. nephele there is also WPE (webkit port embeded) that runs on linux, but it is probably not very usefull. I really liked using links2 on linux though
  576. Link Mauve tom, too bad then, enjoy NetSurf and w3m I guess.
  577. nephele I thought netsurf uses gtk on linux?
  578. tom nephele, netsurf has a gtk2 version
  579. tom on linux
  580. Link Mauve gtk2 is unmaintained, don’t use it.
  581. Link Mauve I can’t imagine the amount of security issues present in its webkit1 port.
  582. Link Mauve Or, well, I can very well imagine. ^^'
  583. nephele Linux development cycles make lots of dead software .-.
  584. tom at this point i don't give a shit about security unless the software is actually usuable first
  585. Link Mauve nephele, webkit1 is very dead, everywhere.
  586. nephele >I can’t imagine the amount of security issues present in its webkit1 port. That explains the memory usage of quaternion, all those html exploits need memory :D
  587. Link Mauve :D
  588. nephele webkit1 is just an api Link Mauve
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  591. nephele it's not a seperate version per se
  592. nephele MacOS still uses it very much
  593. Link Mauve Oh, webkit2gtk is actually possible to compile against gtk4, using -DUSE_GTK4=ON at build time!
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  595. nephele for older applications to preserve their binary compat, but the renderer inside is still the same version webkit2 does have
  596. Link Mauve nephele, oh, TIL.
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  598. Link Mauve I thought it had been removed from WebKit ages ago.
  599. nephele webkitlegacy and webkit2 respectively called
  600. nephele Link mauve: no... haiku also still uses it ;)
  601. pulkomandy just "webkitlegacy" and "webkit" now
  602. Link Mauve TIL.
  603. pulkomandy and yes we're still using the single process version, which is kept alive I think only because of some old iOS apps otherwise?
  604. tom > tom, too bad then, enjoy NetSurf and w3m I guess. unless I find a better option than doing this, I'm not going to use technologies that don't work with them
  605. tom though i do maintain my own browser
  606. pulkomandy I'm trying to migrate our port away from it. But probably we should discuss this elsewhere :)
  607. tom Link Mauve, https://git.nuegia.net/webbrowser.git/
  608. nephele pulkomandy: ah.. fair point, kind of forgot where i am :D
  609. tom most of the security issues and premature deprecation of software are due to gimmicky and frivlous javascript """features""""
  610. tom driven by adtech
  611. Link Mauve Ah right, here is about XMPP software development.
  612. tom disable javascript and you don't have to worry so much about ads and security problems
  613. tom yeah how did we get in this tangent?
  614. nephele Just block ads *shrug*
  615. Zash Just move into the woods and become potato farmer.
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  617. tom nephele, the problem is that effective ad block is hard to reimplmeent. unblock origin and nmatrix did it very well
  618. pep. Zash, I'm sure they have to deal with JS also nowadays
  619. nephele tom: webkit does it way better
  620. pep. Nobody escapes it
  621. tom nephele, I'd like to test that, but webkit doesn't seem very accessible without it being wrapped in gnome shit
  622. tom gtk3/4 dependencies
  623. tom the web is a massive fucking boon and making your software dependent upon web technologies is a sure fire way to ensure dependency hell from something being deprecated or changed frivilously in less than a years's time
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  625. tom and it's mean to you future self, who's going to have to bear that maintance burden
  626. nephele without web technologies i couldn't have ended up in matrix.org's hall of fame
  627. nephele for telling them their "read only" "web client" executed javascript in room titles :D
  628. tom omg
  629. Zash you think the web is the only mess? all is mess. only potato is pure.
  630. nephele Not even kidding about that: https://www.matrix.org/security-disclosure-policy/
  631. pulkomandy wait until you hear about the CES 2020 Smart Potato. Not even potatoes are safe these days
  632. tom Zash, gnome3+, whatwg html5/javascript/really just whatever the latest version of google chrome is doing, are just not messes i'm willing to deal with any longer
  633. tom I've re-rewitten my apps every other months to deal with stupid fucking gnome-foundation updates to gtk for years since 2014
  634. tom no more
  635. tom only stable, sustainable technologies I will depend on
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  637. tom nephele, the frequency of those vulnerabilities and the sheer scope of them are scary
  638. nephele might explain my presence here :)
  639. defanor tom, finding XMPP libraries can be a pain for many languages, but there are C libraries to which it's easy to make bindings from Perl, as well as libraries capable of providing a C API. Depending on a task, might also be a suitable option to implement a small part in whatever language a maintained and suitable library is written in, just to provide an interface, and have the rest in your preferred language.
  640. tom defanor, that' might work. thankyou
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  642. tom I'm just trying to implement a short file-uploading tool to integrate into spacefm and a vehicle telemtry logger for my laptop that connects to the canbus
  643. tom i'm like to reuse the authenticated upload service provided by XEP-0363
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  661. tom What is the purpose of encrypting your password if you store the private key in the same file as the encrypted password? https://code.google.com/archive/p/vacuum-im/issues/851
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  665. nephele security :D
  666. nephele encryption GOOD
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  669. defanor Doesn't look like they are doing that in that issue. Do you mean the "For it to be encrypted, at least using AES 256 with the profile password." bit?
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  672. defanor I'm not familiar with VacuumIM's profile password/encryption, but guessing that it's a password that is entered by a user upon running the client, basically creating its custom password store.
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  677. tom yes
  678. tom I've seen psi+ do this too
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  681. tom I go to lookup my password since i've forgotten it, but I find the profile for the xmpp account is an xml file and the password is base64d and encrypted, but the private key is stored in the same file
  682. defanor https://github.com/vacuum-im/vacuum-im/blob/bb93d3778c1ef6b35e1bb3e4e75742ea8b543d4c/src/plugins/optionsmanager/optionsmanager.cpp#L356 -- here it is, though md5 is used instead of a proper KDF
  683. tom i don't see any security benefit if the private key is stored in the same file, so i'm wondering if there was another reaso nthis was don
  684. defanor It looks like the key is encrypted. Or do you mean that the password itself is stored too, so you can decrypt everything based just on the data readily available from that file?
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  689. defanor https://github.com/vacuum-im/vacuum-im/blob/bb93d3778c1ef6b35e1bb3e4e75742ea8b543d4c/src/utils/options.cpp#L638 -- I wonder why XTEA is used for that Options::decrypt, looks like an uncommon choice.
  690. tom yeah that's weird
  691. tom nevere even heard of XTEA till now
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  693. tom I was originally thinking the user account password was stored there but it sounds like it's used to decrypt conference passwords from a user login
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  712. Sam Reminder that tomorrow (2021-12-14) at 17:00 UTC Fabian Sauter is presenting "Fighting Windows and XMPP — Building a (modern?) Windows XMPP Client" for the office hours! More info: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/XMPP_Office_Hours
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  717. tom Sam, how many people are interested in that so far?
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  750. Sam no idea
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