jonas’nephele, you said logs?
/dev/mapper/adrastea-var--log 4.6G 4.6G 0 100% /var/log
Zashringbuffer the whole thing!
jonas’it was influxdb whining about not being able to write to its storage (which -ENOSPC'd yesterday, as you might remember) :)
nepheleI once had haiku roll over it's syslog once per second because HDA spammed it full of errors :)
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tomHey what is a good library for writing some XMPP automation tooling in Perl?
jonas’I was about to say something similar ;D
tomno that's a programming language
tomI need an XMPP library
Ge0rGtom: you can call into python as `/usr/bin/python3 xmppbot.py` from perl
tomplease no trolling
jonas’there is no sensible library for perl
jonas’so this is the best we can do ;)
Ge0rGhttps://xmpp.org/software/libraries/ - no perls.
jonas’tom, depending on what you intend to do, you might be able to get away with an HTTP library and any of the HTTP<->XMPP modules for prosody.
jonas’mod_rest or somesuch
Zashhttps://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/blob/master/data/libraries.json has 2 perl
tomI found https://metacpan.org/pod/Net::XMPP and https://metacpan.org/pod/Net::XMPP3
tombut i'm wondering if there are some better libs
moparisthebesttom: I wrote sendxmpp replacements for the original perl sendxmpp because it quit working years ago
Zashnet::XMPP and AnyEvent::XMPP, but since nobody has claimed that they are maintained, they are excluded from the listing on the website
stuart.j.mackintoshtom: the Perl devs are either on IRC or Slack - I can conect you to the Slack channel if you like, and I might be able to connect you up with the module developer
stuart.j.mackintoshWould be great to get XMPP conversations in the Perl & Raku community, they might consider dropping Slack at some point. An evaluation was made of XMPP vs a bunch of other messaging platforms a while ago, no conclusion was made so Slack remained.
tomstuart.j.mackintosh, if you could connect me that would be great, but i'm not willing to download a binary blob to my computer and run it from a shady adtech company. Maybe you could let me use a network transport of some kind? I'm not opposed to paying money for a well supported development library/toolkit as long as it's fully open and auditable.
One thing in particular I find really weird is that a lot of libraries on CPAN all stopped development in 2014. The same perculilar thing happened to a lot of open source GIS software on the osm wiki. at least 5 different open routing engines all completely stopped development in 2014. Was there a particular event going on at that time or a brain draon?
stuart.j.mackintoshIRC is the open option for the Perl community right now. I am encouraging a move to XMPP there (as I am in many places) however find that there is similar misinformation about XMPP in Perl land, as there is about Perl in XMPP land. For now, Slack is the space, and I understand why that is a barrier.
stuart.j.mackintoshIf you see developer names in the modules that you would like to be connected with, drop me a direct message. I wasnt so close to the community around 2014 so don't have insight in to the causes.
ZashXMPP is a protocol, Slack is a product. Comparing them is not going to produce useful results
stuart.j.mackintoshZash - yes, that was my argument
stuart.j.mackintoshThe users didn't want to think about that, they wanted to send messages.
ZashAnd there sadly aren't many things in the XMPP world targeting the Slack use case.
stuart.j.mackintoshMovim is reasonable, however seems to have imperfect alignment to other clients✎
stuart.j.mackintoshMovim is a reasonable Slack competitor on XMPP, however seems to have imperfect alignment to other clients ✏
stuart.j.mackintosh> And there sadly aren't many things in the XMPP world targeting the Slack use case.
My view is that many of the Slack features are not relevant to most users anyway, it creates other barriers, and XMPP is a better fit for the needs of the Perl & Raku commuities anyway.
tomstuart.j.mackintosh, isn't that a smartphone app?
stuart.j.mackintoshtom are you asking if Slack is a smartphone app?
tomis the story any different for Raku XMPP libraries?
tomstuart.j.mackintosh, no i was asking about movim?
pep.It's a web app
stuart.j.mackintoshMovim is a web client for XMPP, and it also has a mobile app.
pep.Which is just a PWA nowadays
ZashI thought it was a server-side client
pep.Yeah it's a server-side client really :P
stuart.j.mackintoshyes, more than jsut a web client
stuart.j.mackintoshtherefore behaves more like Slack
ZashThere is a mobile Movim app tho, IIRC
stuart.j.mackintoshyes, never used it though
tomthis one had an update in 2017 https://github.com/kalkin/Net-XMPP
pep.Zash, as I said, it's just a PWA now
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stuart.j.mackintosh> is the story any different for Raku XMPP libraries?
TBH I haven't looked.
pep.(That is, go to your instance, add a shortcut to your phone or sth)
stuart.j.mackintosh> this one had an update in 2017 https://github.com/kalkin/Net-XMPP
Grants are available - if what you are asking could be useful in a general sense, it might be possible to arrange for a dev to recieve a foundation grant
tompep., I really upsets me the ignorance and obtuseness of the developers that accept that kind of thing >=(
pep.You're ranting about devs providing software for users? Not sure I understand
pep.It's that or.. nothing
tom> (That is, go to your instance, add a shortcut to your phone or sth)
pep.What's wrong about that
tom'webapps' being good enough
tomlack of native software
tomlets all just use an information silo
pep.Webapps requiring more code / maintainance
tomATTENTION REQUIRED | ONE MORE STEP
pep.I'm sure edhelas would be more than happy to have you help him with this
pep.Sometimes it's also nice not to assume people to this out of malice. We all have a life
tomto be clear, mainly what i'm trying to do is send IQ stanzas
tomnot send messages
stuart.j.mackintosh> this one had an update in 2017 https://github.com/kalkin/Net-XMPP
This is a Perl 6 (now Raku) module
tom>XMPP can pretty much covers what ActivityPub offers (feeds, comments, articles publication) with a lot more related features (presences, contact list, video-conferencing, chatrooms…). Also, social features on XMPP are basically Atom 1.0 on top of Pubsub, so no need to convert Atom to some new JSON format, you simply embed it! (ArsTechnica on XMPP Pubsub https://nl.movim.eu/?node/news.movim.eu/ArsTechnica, or my personnal blog https://firstname.lastname@example.org).
Is there any software that actually implements the client end of this?
tommy feed reader doesn't seem to support xmpp pubsub
Link Mauvetom, Movim and Libervia are two known examples.
tombut movim requires html5/chrome
tomfirefox isn't a real option anymore
Link Mauve/any WebKit browser
tomit's 97% funded by google
Link MauveHas it ever not been?
tomhtml5 isn't a dependency I want to be forced to rely on for realtime communication
Link MauveSo no GTK, no HTML, no Python… Which technologies do you actually accept? ^^'
tomLink Mauve, before HTML5 and with XHTML yes there was quite a lot of diversity in practicaly usable implemenations
pep.I was gonna say you can use jp, from the libervia suite, but yeah it's all Python.
Link MauveDo you know that HTML5 can also be serialised as XHTML, and that most websites which pretended to do XHTML actually only used HTML?
nephele>So no GTK, no HTML, no Python
Link MauveRenga might then be a good one for you. :D
Link MauveAlthough it doesn’t support PubSub yet.
tomno webshit in my native software
tomi didn't say i had a problem with html
nepheleAs the Renga co-
maintainer i am forced to agree
Link MauveDon’t worry, Haiku is still not very good at this web thing.
nepheleLink mauve: rude, i'm upstreaming webkit patches as we speak!
Link Mauvetom, so the additional few elements are the thing you dislike?
edhelasDamn, Movim is developed with Firefox mostly, so you mean that I'm working with a non existing solution anymore 🤔
Link Mauvenephele, the last time WebPositive failed at rendering my website properly. :p
tomLink Mauve, I've written about this issue here: https://www.nuegia.net/articles/open%20letter%20to%20webmasters.xhtml
nepheleI think that is fixed Link Mauve
nephelewhich site was it?
Link MauveOh, I’ll test it again then!
nepheleWell, the SVG image part is broken anyhow still, but that isn't specific to you... and i still havent investigated that, if there is anything other specific you might want to make a ticket
Link MauveThat’s it I think.
Link MauveI quite like SVG, so I use it wherever I can.
Link Mauve(My avatar says hi!)
tomand it's not that I won't use python
nepheletom: would be cool if your site used the dark mode thing though ;)
Link MauveThen jp as pep. suggested might be good for you, it’s part of Libervia.
tomit's that if I'm building a new technology of my own, I don't want to base it on python which will become deprecated in a few years and force changes just because guido thinks it's better
tomi need a stable foundation
nepheleLink Mauve: ah yes i see, if you make the viewport bigger they all render
nepheleyour site is an excelent testcase, i can use it to investigate the svg drawing issues :)
tomnephele, provide your own CSS for that
Link MauveI don’t have a big screen atm, so 1366×768 is all I can afford.
color-scheme: light dark;
tomnephele, if you make a css for my site that looks nice and is dark i'll include it as a alternative stylesheet
nepheleIt's not an alternate stylesheet, just a media querry, otherwise it will not work with the dark mode option
tomyeah i'm not doin that
tomthe only browsers that actually implement that are google chrome and firefox
tomand only the latest versions
nepheleSomehow, WebPositive does it just fine...
tomthat aren't very portable or run on older hardware
tomI don't care about technologies that require gigabytes of ram to just render a paragraph of text on a screen
Link MauveI just tested, Movim runs fine in Epiphany.
Link MauveWhich is based on neither Chromium nor Firefox.
ZashWhat about NetSurf?
tomZash, netsurf fully implements XHTML1.1 and CSS2
tomit sems to have some bug with tiled background textures
tombut it still renders
tomi'm really rooting for netsurf
Link MauveAh, but Movim in Epiphany still has the issue that messages from a MUC are all duplicated… edhelas?
tomnephele, what browser is that running on haiku?
nepheleNormally WebPositive, HaikuLauncher is just a launcher for webkit directly
tomand what renderer does webpositive use?
nepheleThe same one
tomnephele, why is there a comma instead of a period in your memory monitor?
tomthat is meant to be a period right?
tomalso can webkit be had directly or only through qtwebkit?
Link MauveAFAIK QtWebKit is abandonned, it’s now QtWebEngine based on Chromium.
tomwhy is your memory usage so low with webkit? webkit on my system wants to gobble up hundreds of megs and still be dirt slow with tons of mutex issues and segfaults
nepheleNo, it's ment to be a comma, it's different to the american notation. but it does mean what you expect: the devider to indicate where to split the main part from the fractions
Link MauveThere is still WebKit2GTK which is alive and kicking.
nepheletom: qtwebkit is unmaintained, don't use it really. we have our own port called haikuwebkit
tomnephele, does your port have mutex issues?
nephelehaikuwebkit uses the native memory allocator anyhow, and native apis for most stuff
tomand do you have a element blocker similar in functionality to ublock origin and nmatrix?
nephelethus the low memory requirements, it's not that much of
a damn blackbox like chromium
tomis there a linux or bsd port of haikuwebkit?
nephelenot sure what you mean with mutex issues, for the second part: no we do not. Webkit itself has an incredibly fast api for this blocking stuff but it's not activated in our port yet :/ for now you'd have to use hosts or something
tomnephele, well I've used otter-browser and the kde falcon thing
nephele>is there a linux or bsd port of haikuwebkit?
No, also because there are no haiku apis on linux ;), you can use epiphany though, the gnome browser based on webkit
tomthey had major issues freezing and locking up the whole program during loading of network resources
tomomg fucking gnome shit
nephelekde falcon uses qtwebengine/chromium afaik
tomthere's gotta be an option though
tomnephele, it used to use webkit
nepheleyes.. but qtwebkit is ancient
nepheleand it was always stuck on webkitlegacy
nepheleI think there is a vi-like browser based on webkit for linux too?
tomI WILL NOT BE ASSIMILATED you here?
Link MauveIf you don’t want to use Epiphany, you also have Midori which uses webkit2gtk on Linux.
tomLink Mauve, does that have any dependency on gtk3?
Link MauveIt’s in the name.
nephelekind of ironic that kde doesn't have webkit really... considering they are responsible for khtml
Link MauveAlthough maybe a port to gtk4 is in progress?
tomif it's gtk2 it's fine, but i don't know if that's webkit version 2 or gtk version 2
tomif it's any gtk version 3 or newer i can't use it
nephelewebkit2 is just an api
nephelethere is also WPE (webkit port embeded) that runs on linux, but it is probably not very usefull. I really liked using links2 on linux though
Link Mauvetom, too bad then, enjoy NetSurf and w3m I guess.
nepheleI thought netsurf uses gtk on linux?
tomnephele, netsurf has a gtk2 version
Link Mauvegtk2 is unmaintained, don’t use it.
Link MauveI can’t imagine the amount of security issues present in its webkit1 port.
Link MauveOr, well, I can very well imagine. ^^'
nepheleLinux development cycles make lots of dead software .-.
tomat this point i don't give a shit about security unless the software is actually usuable first
Link Mauvenephele, webkit1 is very dead, everywhere.
nephele>I can’t imagine the amount of security issues present in its webkit1 port.
That explains the memory usage of quaternion, all those html exploits need memory :D
nephelewebkit1 is just an api Link Mauve
nepheleit's not a seperate version per se
nepheleMacOS still uses it very much
Link MauveOh, webkit2gtk is actually possible to compile against gtk4, using -DUSE_GTK4=ON at build time!
nephelefor older applications to preserve their binary compat, but the renderer inside is still the same version webkit2 does have
Link Mauvenephele, oh, TIL.
Link MauveI thought it had been removed from WebKit ages ago.
nephelewebkitlegacy and webkit2 respectively called
nepheleLink mauve: no... haiku also still uses it ;)
pulkomandyjust "webkitlegacy" and "webkit" now
pulkomandyand yes we're still using the single process version, which is kept alive I think only because of some old iOS apps otherwise?
tom> tom, too bad then, enjoy NetSurf and w3m I guess.
unless I find a better option than doing this, I'm not going to use technologies that don't work with them
tomthough i do maintain my own browser
pulkomandyI'm trying to migrate our port away from it. But probably we should discuss this elsewhere :)
nephelepulkomandy: ah.. fair point, kind of forgot where i am :D
tomdriven by adtech
Link MauveAh right, here is about XMPP software development.
tomyeah how did we get in this tangent?
nepheleJust block ads *shrug*
ZashJust move into the woods and become potato farmer.
tomnephele, the problem is that effective ad block is hard to reimplmeent. unblock origin and nmatrix did it very well
pep.Zash, I'm sure they have to deal with JS also nowadays
nepheletom: webkit does it way better
pep.Nobody escapes it
tomnephele, I'd like to test that, but webkit doesn't seem very accessible without it being wrapped in gnome shit
tomthe web is a massive fucking boon and making your software dependent upon web technologies is a sure fire way to ensure dependency hell from something being deprecated or changed frivilously in less than a years's time
tomand it's mean to you future self, who's going to have to bear that maintance burden
without web technologies i couldn't have ended up in matrix.org's hall of fame
Zashyou think the web is the only mess? all is mess. only potato is pure.
nepheleNot even kidding about that: https://www.matrix.org/security-disclosure-policy/
pulkomandywait until you hear about the CES 2020 Smart Potato. Not even potatoes are safe these days
tomI've re-rewitten my apps every other months to deal with stupid fucking gnome-foundation updates to gtk for years since 2014
tomonly stable, sustainable technologies I will depend on
tomnephele, the frequency of those vulnerabilities and the sheer scope of them are scary
nephelemight explain my presence here :)
defanortom, finding XMPP libraries can be a pain for many languages, but there are C libraries to which it's easy to make bindings from Perl, as well as libraries capable of providing a C API. Depending on a task, might also be a suitable option to implement a small part in whatever language a maintained and suitable library is written in, just to provide an interface, and have the rest in your preferred language.
tomdefanor, that' might work. thankyou
tomI'm just trying to implement a short file-uploading tool to integrate into spacefm and a vehicle telemtry logger for my laptop that connects to the canbus
tomi'm like to reuse the authenticated upload service provided by XEP-0363
tomWhat is the purpose of encrypting your password if you store the private key in the same file as the encrypted password? https://code.google.com/archive/p/vacuum-im/issues/851
defanorDoesn't look like they are doing that in that issue. Do you mean the "For it to be encrypted, at least using AES 256 with the profile password." bit?
defanorI'm not familiar with VacuumIM's profile password/encryption, but guessing that it's a password that is entered by a user upon running the client, basically creating its custom password store.
tomI've seen psi+ do this too
tomI go to lookup my password since i've forgotten it, but I find the profile for the xmpp account is an xml file and the password is base64d and encrypted, but the private key is stored in the same file
defanorhttps://github.com/vacuum-im/vacuum-im/blob/bb93d3778c1ef6b35e1bb3e4e75742ea8b543d4c/src/plugins/optionsmanager/optionsmanager.cpp#L356 -- here it is, though md5 is used instead of a proper KDF
tomi don't see any security benefit if the private key is stored in the same file, so i'm wondering if there was another reaso nthis was don
defanorIt looks like the key is encrypted. Or do you mean that the password itself is stored too, so you can decrypt everything based just on the data readily available from that file?
defanorhttps://github.com/vacuum-im/vacuum-im/blob/bb93d3778c1ef6b35e1bb3e4e75742ea8b543d4c/src/utils/options.cpp#L638 -- I wonder why XTEA is used for that Options::decrypt, looks like an uncommon choice.
tomyeah that's weird
tomnevere even heard of XTEA till now
tomI was originally thinking the user account password was stored there but it sounds like it's used to decrypt conference passwords from a user login
SamReminder that tomorrow (2021-12-14) at 17:00 UTC Fabian Sauter is presenting "Fighting Windows and XMPP — Building a (modern?) Windows XMPP Client" for the office hours! More info: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/XMPP_Office_Hours
tomSam, how many people are interested in that so far?