jdev - 2021-12-13

nephele, you said logs? /dev/mapper/adrastea-var--log 4.6G 4.6G 0 100% /var/log

Excelent

ringbuffer the whole thing!

it was influxdb whining about not being able to write to its storage (which -ENOSPC'd yesterday, as you might remember) :)

Resonance cascade!

I once had haiku roll over it's syslog once per second because HDA spammed it full of errors :)

Hey what is a good library for writing some XMPP automation tooling in Perl?

Python.

I was about to say something similar ;D

no that's a programming language

I need an XMPP library

Good luck

libpcre? ;)

tom: you can call into python as `/usr/bin/python3 xmppbot.py` from perl

please no trolling

there is no sensible library for perl

so this is the best we can do ;)

https://xmpp.org/software/libraries/ - no perls.

tom, depending on what you intend to do, you might be able to get away with an HTTP library and any of the HTTP<->XMPP modules for prosody.

mod_rest or somesuch

https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/blob/master/data/libraries.json has 2 perl

I found https://metacpan.org/pod/Net::XMPP and https://metacpan.org/pod/Net::XMPP3

but i'm wondering if there are some better libs

tom: I wrote sendxmpp replacements for the original perl sendxmpp because it quit working years ago

net::XMPP and AnyEvent::XMPP, but since nobody has claimed that they are maintained, they are excluded from the listing on the website

tom: the Perl devs are either on IRC or Slack - I can conect you to the Slack channel if you like, and I might be able to connect you up with the module developer

Would be great to get XMPP conversations in the Perl & Raku community, they might consider dropping Slack at some point. An evaluation was made of XMPP vs a bunch of other messaging platforms a while ago, no conclusion was made so Slack remained.

stuart.j.mackintosh, if you could connect me that would be great, but i'm not willing to download a binary blob to my computer and run it from a shady adtech company. Maybe you could let me use a network transport of some kind? I'm not opposed to paying money for a well supported development library/toolkit as long as it's fully open and auditable. One thing in particular I find really weird is that a lot of libraries on CPAN all stopped development in 2014. The same perculilar thing happened to a lot of open source GIS software on the osm wiki. at least 5 different open routing engines all completely stopped development in 2014. Was there a particular event going on at that time or a brain draon?

IRC is the open option for the Perl community right now. I am encouraging a move to XMPP there (as I am in many places) however find that there is similar misinformation about XMPP in Perl land, as there is about Perl in XMPP land. For now, Slack is the space, and I understand why that is a barrier.

If you see developer names in the modules that you would like to be connected with, drop me a direct message. I wasnt so close to the community around 2014 so don't have insight in to the causes.

XMPP is a protocol, Slack is a product. Comparing them is not going to produce useful results

Zash - yes, that was my argument

The users didn't want to think about that, they wanted to send messages.

And there sadly aren't many things in the XMPP world targeting the Slack use case.

Movim is a reasonable Slack competitor on XMPP, however seems to have imperfect alignment to other clients ✏

> And there sadly aren't many things in the XMPP world targeting the Slack use case. My view is that many of the Slack features are not relevant to most users anyway, it creates other barriers, and XMPP is a better fit for the needs of the Perl & Raku commuities anyway.

stuart.j.mackintosh, isn't that a smartphone app?

oh

also

tom are you asking if Slack is a smartphone app?

is the story any different for Raku XMPP libraries?

stuart.j.mackintosh, no i was asking about movim?

It's a web app

Movim is a web client for XMPP, and it also has a mobile app.

Which is just a PWA nowadays

I thought it was a server-side client

Yeah it's a server-side client really :P

yes, more than jsut a web client

therefore behaves more like Slack

There is a mobile Movim app tho, IIRC

yes, never used it though

this one had an update in 2017 https://github.com/kalkin/Net-XMPP

Zash, as I said, it's just a PWA now

> is the story any different for Raku XMPP libraries? TBH I haven't looked.

(That is, go to your instance, add a shortcut to your phone or sth)

> this one had an update in 2017 https://github.com/kalkin/Net-XMPP Grants are available - if what you are asking could be useful in a general sense, it might be possible to arrange for a dev to recieve a foundation grant

pep., I really upsets me the ignorance and obtuseness of the developers that accept that kind of thing >=(

hmm?

You're ranting about devs providing software for users? Not sure I understand

It's that or.. nothing

> (That is, go to your instance, add a shortcut to your phone or sth)

What's wrong about that

'webapps' being good enough

lack of native software

lets all just use an information silo

Webapps requiring more code / maintainance

ATTENTION REQUIRED | ONE MORE STEP

I'm sure edhelas would be more than happy to have you help him with this

Sometimes it's also nice not to assume people to this out of malice. We all have a life

to be clear, mainly what i'm trying to do is send IQ stanzas

not send messages

> this one had an update in 2017 https://github.com/kalkin/Net-XMPP This is a Perl 6 (now Raku) module

>XMPP can pretty much covers what ActivityPub offers (feeds, comments, articles publication) with a lot more related features (presences, contact list, video-conferencing, chatrooms…). Also, social features on XMPP are basically Atom 1.0 on top of Pubsub, so no need to convert Atom to some new JSON format, you simply embed it! (ArsTechnica on XMPP Pubsub https://nl.movim.eu/?node/news.movim.eu/ArsTechnica, or my personnal blog https://nl.movim.eu/?blog/edhelas@movim.eu). Is there any software that actually implements the client end of this?

my feed reader doesn't seem to support xmpp pubsub

only http

tom, Movim and Libervia are two known examples.

but movim requires html5/chrome

/Firefox

firefox isn't a real option anymore

/any WebKit browser

it's 97% funded by google

Has it ever not been?

html5 isn't a dependency I want to be forced to rely on for realtime communication

So no GTK, no HTML, no Python… Which technologies do you actually accept? ^^'

Link Mauve, before HTML5 and with XHTML yes there was quite a lot of diversity in practicaly usable implemenations

I was gonna say you can use jp, from the libervia suite, but yeah it's all Python.

Do you know that HTML5 can also be serialised as XHTML, and that most websites which pretended to do XHTML actually only used HTML?

>So no GTK, no HTML, no Python BeApi

Renga might then be a good one for you. :D

Although it doesn’t support PubSub yet.

no webshit in my native software

i didn't say i had a problem with html

As the Renga co- maintainer i am forced to agree

Don’t worry, Haiku is still not very good at this web thing.

:P

just html5

Link mauve: rude, i'm upstreaming webkit patches as we speak!

tom, so the additional few elements are the thing you dislike?

Damn, Movim is developed with Firefox mostly, so you mean that I'm working with a non existing solution anymore 🤔

nephele, the last time WebPositive failed at rendering my website properly. :p

Link Mauve, I've written about this issue here: https://www.nuegia.net/articles/open%20letter%20to%20webmasters.xhtml

I think that is fixed Link Mauve

which site was it?

Oh, I’ll test it again then!

https://pytouhou.linkmauve.fr/

Well, the SVG image part is broken anyhow still, but that isn't specific to you... and i still havent investigated that, if there is anything other specific you might want to make a ticket

That’s it I think.

I quite like SVG, so I use it wherever I can.

(My avatar says hi!)

and it's not that I won't use python

tom: would be cool if your site used the dark mode thing though ;)

Then jp as pep. suggested might be good for you, it’s part of Libervia.

it's that if I'm building a new technology of my own, I don't want to base it on python which will become deprecated in a few years and force changes just because guido thinks it's better

i need a stable foundation

Link Mauve: ah yes i see, if you make the viewport bigger they all render

your site is an excelent testcase, i can use it to investigate the svg drawing issues :)

nephele, provide your own CSS for that

Nice!

I don’t have a big screen atm, so 1366×768 is all I can afford.

tom: :root { color-scheme: light dark; }

nephele, if you make a css for my site that looks nice and is dark i'll include it as a alternative stylesheet

It's not an alternate stylesheet, just a media querry, otherwise it will not work with the dark mode option

yeah i'm not doin that

the only browsers that actually implement that are google chrome and firefox

and only the latest versions

Somehow, WebPositive does it just fine...

that aren't very portable or run on older hardware

I don't care about technologies that require gigabytes of ram to just render a paragraph of text on a screen

that's retarded

I just tested, Movim runs fine in Epiphany.

Which is based on neither Chromium nor Firefox.

What about NetSurf?

Zash, netsurf fully implements XHTML1.1 and CSS2

though

it sems to have some bug with tiled background textures

but it still renders

i'm really rooting for netsurf

Ah, but Movim in Epiphany still has the issue that messages from a MUC are all duplicated… edhelas?

https://nheko-im.neko.dev/_matrix/media/r0/download/nheko.im/VmdbNWiKsDFkvJpnQjTCLnqk

nephele, what browser is that running on haiku?

Normally WebPositive, HaikuLauncher is just a launcher for webkit directly

and what renderer does webpositive use?

The same one

webkit?

Yes

nephele, why is there a comma instead of a period in your memory monitor?

that is meant to be a period right?

also can webkit be had directly or only through qtwebkit?

AFAIK QtWebKit is abandonned, it’s now QtWebEngine based on Chromium.

why is your memory usage so low with webkit? webkit on my system wants to gobble up hundreds of megs and still be dirt slow with tons of mutex issues and segfaults

No, it's ment to be a comma, it's different to the american notation. but it does mean what you expect: the devider to indicate where to split the main part from the fractions

There is still WebKit2GTK which is alive and kicking.

tom: qtwebkit is unmaintained, don't use it really. we have our own port called haikuwebkit

nephele, does your port have mutex issues?

haikuwebkit uses the native memory allocator anyhow, and native apis for most stuff

and do you have a element blocker similar in functionality to ublock origin and nmatrix?

thus the low memory requirements, it's not that much of a damn blackbox like chromium

interesting

is there a linux or bsd port of haikuwebkit?

not sure what you mean with mutex issues, for the second part: no we do not. Webkit itself has an incredibly fast api for this blocking stuff but it's not activated in our port yet :/ for now you'd have to use hosts or something

nephele, well I've used otter-browser and the kde falcon thing

>is there a linux or bsd port of haikuwebkit? No, also because there are no haiku apis on linux ;), you can use epiphany though, the gnome browser based on webkit

they had major issues freezing and locking up the whole program during loading of network resources

omg fucking gnome shit

no thanks

kde falcon uses qtwebengine/chromium afaik

there's gotta be an option though

nephele, it used to use webkit

yes.. but qtwebkit is ancient

and it was always stuck on webkitlegacy

I think there is a vi-like browser based on webkit for linux too?

I WILL NOT BE ASSIMILATED you here?

If you don’t want to use Epiphany, you also have Midori which uses webkit2gtk on Linux.

Link Mauve, does that have any dependency on gtk3?

It’s in the name.

webkit2gtk.

kind of ironic that kde doesn't have webkit really... considering they are responsible for khtml

Although maybe a port to gtk4 is in progress?

if it's gtk2 it's fine, but i don't know if that's webkit version 2 or gtk version 2

if it's any gtk version 3 or newer i can't use it

webkit2 is just an api

there is also WPE (webkit port embeded) that runs on linux, but it is probably not very usefull. I really liked using links2 on linux though

tom, too bad then, enjoy NetSurf and w3m I guess.

I thought netsurf uses gtk on linux?

nephele, netsurf has a gtk2 version

on linux

gtk2 is unmaintained, don’t use it.

I can’t imagine the amount of security issues present in its webkit1 port.

Or, well, I can very well imagine. ^^'

Linux development cycles make lots of dead software .-.

at this point i don't give a shit about security unless the software is actually usuable first

nephele, webkit1 is very dead, everywhere.

>I can’t imagine the amount of security issues present in its webkit1 port. That explains the memory usage of quaternion, all those html exploits need memory :D

:D

webkit1 is just an api Link Mauve

it's not a seperate version per se

MacOS still uses it very much

Oh, webkit2gtk is actually possible to compile against gtk4, using -DUSE_GTK4=ON at build time!

for older applications to preserve their binary compat, but the renderer inside is still the same version webkit2 does have

nephele, oh, TIL.

I thought it had been removed from WebKit ages ago.

webkitlegacy and webkit2 respectively called

Link mauve: no... haiku also still uses it ;)

just "webkitlegacy" and "webkit" now

TIL.

and yes we're still using the single process version, which is kept alive I think only because of some old iOS apps otherwise?

> tom, too bad then, enjoy NetSurf and w3m I guess. unless I find a better option than doing this, I'm not going to use technologies that don't work with them

though i do maintain my own browser

I'm trying to migrate our port away from it. But probably we should discuss this elsewhere :)

Link Mauve, https://git.nuegia.net/webbrowser.git/

pulkomandy: ah.. fair point, kind of forgot where i am :D

most of the security issues and premature deprecation of software are due to gimmicky and frivlous javascript """features""""

driven by adtech

Ah right, here is about XMPP software development.

disable javascript and you don't have to worry so much about ads and security problems

yeah how did we get in this tangent?

Just block ads *shrug*

Just move into the woods and become potato farmer.

nephele, the problem is that effective ad block is hard to reimplmeent. unblock origin and nmatrix did it very well

Zash, I'm sure they have to deal with JS also nowadays

tom: webkit does it way better

Nobody escapes it

nephele, I'd like to test that, but webkit doesn't seem very accessible without it being wrapped in gnome shit

gtk3/4 dependencies

the web is a massive fucking boon and making your software dependent upon web technologies is a sure fire way to ensure dependency hell from something being deprecated or changed frivilously in less than a years's time

and it's mean to you future self, who's going to have to bear that maintance burden

without web technologies i couldn't have ended up in matrix.org's hall of fame

for telling them their "read only" "web client" executed javascript in room titles :D

omg

you think the web is the only mess? all is mess. only potato is pure.

Not even kidding about that: https://www.matrix.org/security-disclosure-policy/

wait until you hear about the CES 2020 Smart Potato. Not even potatoes are safe these days

Zash, gnome3+, whatwg html5/javascript/really just whatever the latest version of google chrome is doing, are just not messes i'm willing to deal with any longer

I've re-rewitten my apps every other months to deal with stupid fucking gnome-foundation updates to gtk for years since 2014

no more

only stable, sustainable technologies I will depend on

nephele, the frequency of those vulnerabilities and the sheer scope of them are scary

might explain my presence here :)

tom, finding XMPP libraries can be a pain for many languages, but there are C libraries to which it's easy to make bindings from Perl, as well as libraries capable of providing a C API. Depending on a task, might also be a suitable option to implement a small part in whatever language a maintained and suitable library is written in, just to provide an interface, and have the rest in your preferred language.

defanor, that' might work. thankyou

I'm just trying to implement a short file-uploading tool to integrate into spacefm and a vehicle telemtry logger for my laptop that connects to the canbus

i'm like to reuse the authenticated upload service provided by XEP-0363

What is the purpose of encrypting your password if you store the private key in the same file as the encrypted password? https://code.google.com/archive/p/vacuum-im/issues/851

security :D

encryption GOOD

Doesn't look like they are doing that in that issue. Do you mean the "For it to be encrypted, at least using AES 256 with the profile password." bit?

I'm not familiar with VacuumIM's profile password/encryption, but guessing that it's a password that is entered by a user upon running the client, basically creating its custom password store.

yes

I've seen psi+ do this too

I go to lookup my password since i've forgotten it, but I find the profile for the xmpp account is an xml file and the password is base64d and encrypted, but the private key is stored in the same file

https://github.com/vacuum-im/vacuum-im/blob/bb93d3778c1ef6b35e1bb3e4e75742ea8b543d4c/src/plugins/optionsmanager/optionsmanager.cpp#L356 -- here it is, though md5 is used instead of a proper KDF

i don't see any security benefit if the private key is stored in the same file, so i'm wondering if there was another reaso nthis was don

It looks like the key is encrypted. Or do you mean that the password itself is stored too, so you can decrypt everything based just on the data readily available from that file?

https://github.com/vacuum-im/vacuum-im/blob/bb93d3778c1ef6b35e1bb3e4e75742ea8b543d4c/src/utils/options.cpp#L638 -- I wonder why XTEA is used for that Options::decrypt, looks like an uncommon choice.

yeah that's weird

nevere even heard of XTEA till now

I was originally thinking the user account password was stored there but it sounds like it's used to decrypt conference passwords from a user login

Reminder that tomorrow (2021-12-14) at 17:00 UTC Fabian Sauter is presenting "Fighting Windows and XMPP — Building a (modern?) Windows XMPP Client" for the office hours! More info: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/XMPP_Office_Hours

Sam, how many people are interested in that so far?

no idea