-
jonas’
nephele, you said logs? /dev/mapper/adrastea-var--log 4.6G 4.6G 0 100% /var/log
-
nephele
Excelent
-
Zash
ringbuffer the whole thing!
-
jonas’
it was influxdb whining about not being able to write to its storage (which -ENOSPC'd yesterday, as you might remember) :)
-
Zash
Resonance cascade!
-
nephele
I once had haiku roll over it's syslog once per second because HDA spammed it full of errors :)
-
tom
Hey what is a good library for writing some XMPP automation tooling in Perl?
-
Ge0rG
Python.
-
jonas’
I was about to say something similar ;D
-
tom
no that's a programming language
-
tom
I need an XMPP library
-
moparisthebest
Good luck
-
Zash
libpcre? ;)
-
Ge0rG
tom: you can call into python as `/usr/bin/python3 xmppbot.py` from perl
-
tom
please no trolling
-
jonas’
there is no sensible library for perl
-
jonas’
so this is the best we can do ;)
-
Ge0rG
https://xmpp.org/software/libraries/ - no perls.
-
jonas’
tom, depending on what you intend to do, you might be able to get away with an HTTP library and any of the HTTP<->XMPP modules for prosody.
-
jonas’
mod_rest or somesuch
-
Zash
https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/blob/master/data/libraries.json has 2 perl
-
tom
I found https://metacpan.org/pod/Net::XMPP and https://metacpan.org/pod/Net::XMPP3
-
tom
but i'm wondering if there are some better libs
-
moparisthebest
tom: I wrote sendxmpp replacements for the original perl sendxmpp because it quit working years ago
-
Zash
net::XMPP and AnyEvent::XMPP, but since nobody has claimed that they are maintained, they are excluded from the listing on the website
-
stuart.j.mackintosh
tom: the Perl devs are either on IRC or Slack - I can conect you to the Slack channel if you like, and I might be able to connect you up with the module developer
-
stuart.j.mackintosh
Would be great to get XMPP conversations in the Perl & Raku community, they might consider dropping Slack at some point. An evaluation was made of XMPP vs a bunch of other messaging platforms a while ago, no conclusion was made so Slack remained.
-
tom
stuart.j.mackintosh, if you could connect me that would be great, but i'm not willing to download a binary blob to my computer and run it from a shady adtech company. Maybe you could let me use a network transport of some kind? I'm not opposed to paying money for a well supported development library/toolkit as long as it's fully open and auditable. One thing in particular I find really weird is that a lot of libraries on CPAN all stopped development in 2014. The same perculilar thing happened to a lot of open source GIS software on the osm wiki. at least 5 different open routing engines all completely stopped development in 2014. Was there a particular event going on at that time or a brain draon?
-
stuart.j.mackintosh
IRC is the open option for the Perl community right now. I am encouraging a move to XMPP there (as I am in many places) however find that there is similar misinformation about XMPP in Perl land, as there is about Perl in XMPP land. For now, Slack is the space, and I understand why that is a barrier.
-
stuart.j.mackintosh
If you see developer names in the modules that you would like to be connected with, drop me a direct message. I wasnt so close to the community around 2014 so don't have insight in to the causes.
-
Zash
XMPP is a protocol, Slack is a product. Comparing them is not going to produce useful results
-
stuart.j.mackintosh
Zash - yes, that was my argument
-
stuart.j.mackintosh
The users didn't want to think about that, they wanted to send messages.
-
Zash
And there sadly aren't many things in the XMPP world targeting the Slack use case.
-
stuart.j.mackintosh
Movim is reasonable, however seems to have imperfect alignment to other clients✎ -
stuart.j.mackintosh
Movim is a reasonable Slack competitor on XMPP, however seems to have imperfect alignment to other clients ✏
-
stuart.j.mackintosh
> And there sadly aren't many things in the XMPP world targeting the Slack use case. My view is that many of the Slack features are not relevant to most users anyway, it creates other barriers, and XMPP is a better fit for the needs of the Perl & Raku commuities anyway.
-
tom
stuart.j.mackintosh, isn't that a smartphone app?
-
tom
oh
-
tom
also
-
stuart.j.mackintosh
tom are you asking if Slack is a smartphone app?
-
tom
is the story any different for Raku XMPP libraries?
-
tom
stuart.j.mackintosh, no i was asking about movim?
-
pep.
It's a web app
-
stuart.j.mackintosh
Movim is a web client for XMPP, and it also has a mobile app.
-
pep.
Which is just a PWA nowadays
-
Zash
I thought it was a server-side client
-
pep.
Yeah it's a server-side client really :P
-
stuart.j.mackintosh
yes, more than jsut a web client
-
stuart.j.mackintosh
therefore behaves more like Slack
-
Zash
There is a mobile Movim app tho, IIRC
-
stuart.j.mackintosh
yes, never used it though
-
tom
this one had an update in 2017 https://github.com/kalkin/Net-XMPP
-
pep.
Zash, as I said, it's just a PWA now
-
stuart.j.mackintosh
> is the story any different for Raku XMPP libraries? TBH I haven't looked.
-
pep.
(That is, go to your instance, add a shortcut to your phone or sth)
-
stuart.j.mackintosh
> this one had an update in 2017 https://github.com/kalkin/Net-XMPP Grants are available - if what you are asking could be useful in a general sense, it might be possible to arrange for a dev to recieve a foundation grant
-
tom
pep., I really upsets me the ignorance and obtuseness of the developers that accept that kind of thing >=(
-
pep.
hmm?
-
pep.
You're ranting about devs providing software for users? Not sure I understand
-
pep.
It's that or.. nothing
-
tom
> (That is, go to your instance, add a shortcut to your phone or sth)
-
pep.
What's wrong about that
-
tom
'webapps' being good enough
-
tom
lack of native software
-
tom
lets all just use an information silo
-
pep.
Webapps requiring more code / maintainance
-
tom
ATTENTION REQUIRED | ONE MORE STEP
-
pep.
I'm sure edhelas would be more than happy to have you help him with this
-
pep.
Sometimes it's also nice not to assume people to this out of malice. We all have a life
-
tom
to be clear, mainly what i'm trying to do is send IQ stanzas
-
tom
not send messages
-
stuart.j.mackintosh
> this one had an update in 2017 https://github.com/kalkin/Net-XMPP This is a Perl 6 (now Raku) module
-
tom
>XMPP can pretty much covers what ActivityPub offers (feeds, comments, articles publication) with a lot more related features (presences, contact list, video-conferencing, chatrooms…). Also, social features on XMPP are basically Atom 1.0 on top of Pubsub, so no need to convert Atom to some new JSON format, you simply embed it! (ArsTechnica on XMPP Pubsub https://nl.movim.eu/?node/news.movim.eu/ArsTechnica, or my personnal blog https://nl.movim.eu/?blog/edhelas@movim.eu). Is there any software that actually implements the client end of this?
-
tom
my feed reader doesn't seem to support xmpp pubsub
-
tom
only http
-
Link Mauve
tom, Movim and Libervia are two known examples.
-
tom
but movim requires html5/chrome
-
Link Mauve
/Firefox
-
tom
firefox isn't a real option anymore
-
Link Mauve
/any WebKit browser
-
tom
it's 97% funded by google
-
Link Mauve
Has it ever not been?
-
tom
html5 isn't a dependency I want to be forced to rely on for realtime communication
-
Link Mauve
So no GTK, no HTML, no Python… Which technologies do you actually accept? ^^'
-
tom
Link Mauve, before HTML5 and with XHTML yes there was quite a lot of diversity in practicaly usable implemenations
-
pep.
I was gonna say you can use jp, from the libervia suite, but yeah it's all Python.
-
Link Mauve
Do you know that HTML5 can also be serialised as XHTML, and that most websites which pretended to do XHTML actually only used HTML?
-
nephele
>So no GTK, no HTML, no Python BeApi
-
Link Mauve
Renga might then be a good one for you. :D
-
Link Mauve
Although it doesn’t support PubSub yet.
-
tom
no webshit in my native software
-
tom
i didn't say i had a problem with html
-
nephele
As the Renga co- maintainer i am forced to agree
-
Link Mauve
Don’t worry, Haiku is still not very good at this web thing.
-
nephele
:P
-
tom
just html5
-
nephele
Link mauve: rude, i'm upstreaming webkit patches as we speak!
-
Link Mauve
tom, so the additional few elements are the thing you dislike?
-
edhelas
Damn, Movim is developed with Firefox mostly, so you mean that I'm working with a non existing solution anymore 🤔
-
Link Mauve
nephele, the last time WebPositive failed at rendering my website properly. :p
-
tom
Link Mauve, I've written about this issue here: https://www.nuegia.net/articles/open%20letter%20to%20webmasters.xhtml
-
nephele
I think that is fixed Link Mauve
-
nephele
which site was it?
-
Link Mauve
Oh, I’ll test it again then!
-
Link Mauve
https://pytouhou.linkmauve.fr/
-
nephele
Well, the SVG image part is broken anyhow still, but that isn't specific to you... and i still havent investigated that, if there is anything other specific you might want to make a ticket
-
Link Mauve
That’s it I think.
-
Link Mauve
I quite like SVG, so I use it wherever I can.
-
Link Mauve
(My avatar says hi!)
-
tom
and it's not that I won't use python
-
nephele
tom: would be cool if your site used the dark mode thing though ;)
-
Link Mauve
Then jp as pep. suggested might be good for you, it’s part of Libervia.
-
tom
it's that if I'm building a new technology of my own, I don't want to base it on python which will become deprecated in a few years and force changes just because guido thinks it's better
-
tom
i need a stable foundation
-
nephele
Link Mauve: ah yes i see, if you make the viewport bigger they all render
-
nephele
your site is an excelent testcase, i can use it to investigate the svg drawing issues :)
-
tom
nephele, provide your own CSS for that
-
Link Mauve
Nice!
-
Link Mauve
I don’t have a big screen atm, so 1366×768 is all I can afford.
-
nephele
tom: :root { color-scheme: light dark; }
-
tom
nephele, if you make a css for my site that looks nice and is dark i'll include it as a alternative stylesheet
-
nephele
It's not an alternate stylesheet, just a media querry, otherwise it will not work with the dark mode option
-
tom
yeah i'm not doin that
-
tom
the only browsers that actually implement that are google chrome and firefox
-
tom
and only the latest versions
-
nephele
Somehow, WebPositive does it just fine...
-
tom
that aren't very portable or run on older hardware
-
tom
I don't care about technologies that require gigabytes of ram to just render a paragraph of text on a screen
-
tom
that's retarded
-
Link Mauve
I just tested, Movim runs fine in Epiphany.
-
Link Mauve
Which is based on neither Chromium nor Firefox.
-
Zash
What about NetSurf?
-
tom
Zash, netsurf fully implements XHTML1.1 and CSS2
-
tom
though
-
tom
it sems to have some bug with tiled background textures
-
tom
but it still renders
-
tom
i'm really rooting for netsurf
-
Link Mauve
Ah, but Movim in Epiphany still has the issue that messages from a MUC are all duplicated… edhelas?
-
nephele
https://nheko-im.neko.dev/_matrix/media/r0/download/nheko.im/VmdbNWiKsDFkvJpnQjTCLnqk
-
tom
nephele, what browser is that running on haiku?
-
nephele
Normally WebPositive, HaikuLauncher is just a launcher for webkit directly
-
tom
and what renderer does webpositive use?
-
nephele
The same one
-
tom
webkit?
-
nephele
Yes
-
tom
nephele, why is there a comma instead of a period in your memory monitor?
-
tom
that is meant to be a period right?
-
tom
also can webkit be had directly or only through qtwebkit?
-
Link Mauve
AFAIK QtWebKit is abandonned, it’s now QtWebEngine based on Chromium.
-
tom
why is your memory usage so low with webkit? webkit on my system wants to gobble up hundreds of megs and still be dirt slow with tons of mutex issues and segfaults
-
nephele
No, it's ment to be a comma, it's different to the american notation. but it does mean what you expect: the devider to indicate where to split the main part from the fractions
-
Link Mauve
There is still WebKit2GTK which is alive and kicking.
-
nephele
tom: qtwebkit is unmaintained, don't use it really. we have our own port called haikuwebkit
-
tom
nephele, does your port have mutex issues?
-
nephele
haikuwebkit uses the native memory allocator anyhow, and native apis for most stuff
-
tom
and do you have a element blocker similar in functionality to ublock origin and nmatrix?
-
nephele
thus the low memory requirements, it's not that much of a damn blackbox like chromium
-
tom
interesting
-
tom
is there a linux or bsd port of haikuwebkit?
-
nephele
not sure what you mean with mutex issues, for the second part: no we do not. Webkit itself has an incredibly fast api for this blocking stuff but it's not activated in our port yet :/ for now you'd have to use hosts or something
-
tom
nephele, well I've used otter-browser and the kde falcon thing
-
nephele
>is there a linux or bsd port of haikuwebkit? No, also because there are no haiku apis on linux ;), you can use epiphany though, the gnome browser based on webkit
-
tom
they had major issues freezing and locking up the whole program during loading of network resources
-
tom
omg fucking gnome shit
-
tom
no thanks
-
nephele
kde falcon uses qtwebengine/chromium afaik
-
tom
there's gotta be an option though
-
tom
nephele, it used to use webkit
-
nephele
yes.. but qtwebkit is ancient
-
nephele
and it was always stuck on webkitlegacy
-
nephele
I think there is a vi-like browser based on webkit for linux too?
-
tom
I WILL NOT BE ASSIMILATED you here?
-
Link Mauve
If you don’t want to use Epiphany, you also have Midori which uses webkit2gtk on Linux.
-
tom
Link Mauve, does that have any dependency on gtk3?
-
Link Mauve
It’s in the name.
-
Link Mauve
webkit2gtk.
-
nephele
kind of ironic that kde doesn't have webkit really... considering they are responsible for khtml
-
Link Mauve
Although maybe a port to gtk4 is in progress?
-
tom
if it's gtk2 it's fine, but i don't know if that's webkit version 2 or gtk version 2
-
tom
if it's any gtk version 3 or newer i can't use it
-
nephele
webkit2 is just an api
-
nephele
there is also WPE (webkit port embeded) that runs on linux, but it is probably not very usefull. I really liked using links2 on linux though
-
Link Mauve
tom, too bad then, enjoy NetSurf and w3m I guess.
-
nephele
I thought netsurf uses gtk on linux?
-
tom
nephele, netsurf has a gtk2 version
-
tom
on linux
-
Link Mauve
gtk2 is unmaintained, don’t use it.
-
Link Mauve
I can’t imagine the amount of security issues present in its webkit1 port.
-
Link Mauve
Or, well, I can very well imagine. ^^'
-
nephele
Linux development cycles make lots of dead software .-.
-
tom
at this point i don't give a shit about security unless the software is actually usuable first
-
Link Mauve
nephele, webkit1 is very dead, everywhere.
-
nephele
>I can’t imagine the amount of security issues present in its webkit1 port. That explains the memory usage of quaternion, all those html exploits need memory :D
-
Link Mauve
:D
-
nephele
webkit1 is just an api Link Mauve
-
nephele
it's not a seperate version per se
-
nephele
MacOS still uses it very much
-
Link Mauve
Oh, webkit2gtk is actually possible to compile against gtk4, using -DUSE_GTK4=ON at build time!
-
nephele
for older applications to preserve their binary compat, but the renderer inside is still the same version webkit2 does have
-
Link Mauve
nephele, oh, TIL.
-
Link Mauve
I thought it had been removed from WebKit ages ago.
-
nephele
webkitlegacy and webkit2 respectively called
-
nephele
Link mauve: no... haiku also still uses it ;)
-
pulkomandy
just "webkitlegacy" and "webkit" now
-
Link Mauve
TIL.
-
pulkomandy
and yes we're still using the single process version, which is kept alive I think only because of some old iOS apps otherwise?
-
tom
> tom, too bad then, enjoy NetSurf and w3m I guess. unless I find a better option than doing this, I'm not going to use technologies that don't work with them
-
tom
though i do maintain my own browser
-
pulkomandy
I'm trying to migrate our port away from it. But probably we should discuss this elsewhere :)
-
tom
Link Mauve, https://git.nuegia.net/webbrowser.git/
-
nephele
pulkomandy: ah.. fair point, kind of forgot where i am :D
-
tom
most of the security issues and premature deprecation of software are due to gimmicky and frivlous javascript """features""""
-
tom
driven by adtech
-
Link Mauve
Ah right, here is about XMPP software development.
-
tom
disable javascript and you don't have to worry so much about ads and security problems
-
tom
yeah how did we get in this tangent?
-
nephele
Just block ads *shrug*
-
Zash
Just move into the woods and become potato farmer.
-
tom
nephele, the problem is that effective ad block is hard to reimplmeent. unblock origin and nmatrix did it very well
-
pep.
Zash, I'm sure they have to deal with JS also nowadays
-
nephele
tom: webkit does it way better
-
pep.
Nobody escapes it
-
tom
nephele, I'd like to test that, but webkit doesn't seem very accessible without it being wrapped in gnome shit
-
tom
gtk3/4 dependencies
-
tom
the web is a massive fucking boon and making your software dependent upon web technologies is a sure fire way to ensure dependency hell from something being deprecated or changed frivilously in less than a years's time
-
tom
and it's mean to you future self, who's going to have to bear that maintance burden
-
nephele
without web technologies i couldn't have ended up in matrix.org's hall of fame
-
nephele
for telling them their "read only" "web client" executed javascript in room titles :D
-
tom
omg
-
Zash
you think the web is the only mess? all is mess. only potato is pure.
-
nephele
Not even kidding about that: https://www.matrix.org/security-disclosure-policy/
-
pulkomandy
wait until you hear about the CES 2020 Smart Potato. Not even potatoes are safe these days
-
tom
Zash, gnome3+, whatwg html5/javascript/really just whatever the latest version of google chrome is doing, are just not messes i'm willing to deal with any longer
-
tom
I've re-rewitten my apps every other months to deal with stupid fucking gnome-foundation updates to gtk for years since 2014
-
tom
no more
-
tom
only stable, sustainable technologies I will depend on
-
tom
nephele, the frequency of those vulnerabilities and the sheer scope of them are scary
-
nephele
might explain my presence here :)
-
defanor
tom, finding XMPP libraries can be a pain for many languages, but there are C libraries to which it's easy to make bindings from Perl, as well as libraries capable of providing a C API. Depending on a task, might also be a suitable option to implement a small part in whatever language a maintained and suitable library is written in, just to provide an interface, and have the rest in your preferred language.
-
tom
defanor, that' might work. thankyou
-
tom
I'm just trying to implement a short file-uploading tool to integrate into spacefm and a vehicle telemtry logger for my laptop that connects to the canbus
-
tom
i'm like to reuse the authenticated upload service provided by XEP-0363
-
tom
What is the purpose of encrypting your password if you store the private key in the same file as the encrypted password? https://code.google.com/archive/p/vacuum-im/issues/851
-
nephele
security :D
-
nephele
encryption GOOD
-
defanor
Doesn't look like they are doing that in that issue. Do you mean the "For it to be encrypted, at least using AES 256 with the profile password." bit?
-
defanor
I'm not familiar with VacuumIM's profile password/encryption, but guessing that it's a password that is entered by a user upon running the client, basically creating its custom password store.
-
tom
yes
-
tom
I've seen psi+ do this too
-
tom
I go to lookup my password since i've forgotten it, but I find the profile for the xmpp account is an xml file and the password is base64d and encrypted, but the private key is stored in the same file
-
defanor
https://github.com/vacuum-im/vacuum-im/blob/bb93d3778c1ef6b35e1bb3e4e75742ea8b543d4c/src/plugins/optionsmanager/optionsmanager.cpp#L356 -- here it is, though md5 is used instead of a proper KDF
-
tom
i don't see any security benefit if the private key is stored in the same file, so i'm wondering if there was another reaso nthis was don
-
defanor
It looks like the key is encrypted. Or do you mean that the password itself is stored too, so you can decrypt everything based just on the data readily available from that file?
-
defanor
https://github.com/vacuum-im/vacuum-im/blob/bb93d3778c1ef6b35e1bb3e4e75742ea8b543d4c/src/utils/options.cpp#L638 -- I wonder why XTEA is used for that Options::decrypt, looks like an uncommon choice.
-
tom
yeah that's weird
-
tom
nevere even heard of XTEA till now
-
tom
I was originally thinking the user account password was stored there but it sounds like it's used to decrypt conference passwords from a user login
-
Sam
Reminder that tomorrow (2021-12-14) at 17:00 UTC Fabian Sauter is presenting "Fighting Windows and XMPP — Building a (modern?) Windows XMPP Client" for the office hours! More info: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/XMPP_Office_Hours
-
tom
Sam, how many people are interested in that so far?
-
Sam
no idea