jdev - 2021-12-17

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  114. defanor Were there attempts to write down a collective wish list for a reusable library's properties (except for compliance)? I'm working on one too, and trying to make it reusable, but I have a lingering suspicion that it may miss properties important to others. The main properties I've picked are an asynchronous C API and letting a program to work with XML directly (including hooks for sending/receiving, optionally telling the library to not send/process those).
  115. Kev The whole XML thing is really debatable.
  116. Kev If you have an abstraction in the library, users don't have to know how XMPP is represented on the wire, only the semantics - clearly good. OTOH, abstracting away the XML makes it that little bit harder to deal with the XML when you want to do something not yet supported by the library.
  117. Kev I don't think either is clearly better (although an abstraction without a way to add your own payloads is clearly a problem), they both have drawbacks.
  118. defanor I figured that XML (and flexibility in general) is important for reusability, while convenience functions abstracting it can be sprinkled on top later (though already doing that for some of the more cumbersome to compose bits).
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  138. contrapunctus As it happens, I've never done any XMPP-related development before. Apart from the client library, the other project I was interested in was an XMPP-IRC bridge (which, unlike Biboumi, connects an MUC with an IRC room and lets users participate in the same conversation from either protocol)...would that be a suitable project to gain XMPP development experience?
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  141. jonas’ it is certainly more well-scoped
  142. jonas’ but it has some issues on the IRC side, I think
  143. jonas’ as IRC isn't federated
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  145. contrapunctus jonas’: Hm...how does that affect a bridge? 🤔️
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  148. jonas’ contrapunctus, how are IRC users going to interact with a bridge?
  149. flow contrapunctus, such XMPP-IRC MUC↔IRC-Channel bridges already exist, we use one. It's basically a bot that joins both rooms and forwards the messages
  150. jonas’ flow, bots are not bridges!
  151. jonas’ they are terrible and we should stop praising them ;)
  152. flow maybe, but it works
  153. contrapunctus flow: are users on both sides visible to the other side?
  154. flow although yes, the main problem is that you don't know who is on the other side
  155. flow but I am not sure if you can solve that
  156. flow maybe on the XMPP side, but on the IRC side that would mean creating accounts on demand
  157. flow and IRC networks haven often strong countermeasure against multiple accounts from the same IP
  158. flow and IRC networks haven often strong countermeasures against multiple accounts from the same IP
  159. jonas’ ^ unless you happen to be an IRC server
  160. jonas’ hence, the point about federation
  161. flow yeah, but you don't become an IRC server easily, at least in IRCNet, Libera and OFTC
  162. jonas’ also the channel namespace
  163. jonas’ flow, you can easily become an IRC server -- by being one. but that then means that IRC users have to log into your single-server network
  164. jonas’ (mod_irc?!)
  165. contrapunctus Or...asking the IRC admins to permit multiple accounts from your XMPP server?
  166. jonas’ contrapunctus, where is the difference to the biboumi model then?
  167. flow contrapunctus, I doublt that any IRC operator would aggree to this
  168. jonas’ flow, you're wrong about that
  169. flow because then their countermeasures could be circumvented by any xmpp server
  170. jonas’ I have allowlisting for my biboumi instance with at least ircnet
  171. defanor Is it what Matrix is doing on Libera? There's a lot of users with [m] suffixes in their names.
  172. contrapunctus ^
  173. MattJ No
  174. jonas’ flow, I had allowlisting with freenode, though they require you to run identd for bans
  175. MattJ The Libera staff have consistently denied s2s-level access to their network for bridging purposes
  176. MattJ IRC s2s is not like XMPP s2s, each server has significant power over the network, and they don't want third-party code with that power
  177. flow contrapunctus, in any case, you want to reach out to IRC operators and clarify what, if anything, and how they would allow multiple connections before starting to code
  178. jonas’ MattJ, but matrix has an allowlisting for number of connections, which is what the question was about?
  179. flow don't get me wrong, it's not that I wouldn't welcome a proper IRC↔XMPP bridge
  180. jonas’ contrapunctus, so, which downsides do you see with the biboumi approach which you'd like to fix, and how?
  181. flow and researching what matrix does seems like a good starting point
  182. MattJ jonas’, okay, I guess I skimmed the backlog too quickly, I was triggered by "you can easily become an IRC server"
  183. jonas’ MattJ, oh you can, by running your own single-server network ;)
  184. jonas’ (which is what I meant)
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  187. jonas’ so a thing which exposes an IRC c2s interface on the one side (mimicing a single-node network) and an XMPP component interface implementing MUC on the other side would work
  188. flow jonas’, biboumi is an XMPP component on the users XMPP service, right?
  189. jonas’ with the downsides of restricting everyone of the lowest common denominator of IRC (think usernames, rich messages etc.)
  190. MattJ Matrix is just allowed to have many connections. They give each connected user a unique IPv6 address in an agreed block, and have an agreed ident string
  191. jonas’ flow, on *some users XMPP service, yes
  192. flow jonas’, then one advantage over the biboumi approach would be that you don't need such a component at all (irregardless where it runs)
  193. jonas’ flow, well, you need a component which does the bridging
  194. contrapunctus jonas’: In the Biboumi approach, communities are divided rather than connected. I want to bridge some MUCs to some IRC channels, have users on both sides see each other, and users on the XMPP side see each others' status, avatars, typing notifications, read markers etc.
  195. flow you simply join the superchat@chat.example.org and be in a room with people from #superchat @ libera
  196. contrapunctus jonas’: In the Biboumi approach, communities stay divided rather than being connected. I want to bridge some MUCs to some IRC channels, have users on both sides see each other, and users on the XMPP side see each others' status, avatars, typing notifications, read markers etc.
  197. jonas’ contrapunctus, so you just need to extend biboumi to broadcast the XMPP magic to all connected users instead of using the IRC reflection?
  198. jonas’ contrapunctus, so you just need to extend biboumi to broadcast the XMPP magic to all connected XMPP users instead of using the IRC reflection?
  199. jonas’ (for which there is an issue I think but it simply hasn't been implemented)
  200. flow and the number of the entitys in the room would be the same when the bridged room is viewed from both networks
  201. jonas’ flow, you can have that today -- join #yaook%irc.oftc.net@irc.jabberfr.org ;). It's a MUC, but you can also join it from IRC ;)
  202. flow jonas’, and that's the technical setup behind this?
  203. jonas’ biboumi is
  204. flow thinks
  205. flow so if I join that MUC, then an IRC user is connected simultaneously?
  206. jonas’ yes
  207. flow ahh I wasn't aware that this wroks
  208. flow ahh I wasn't aware that this wroks
  209. flow ahh I wasn't aware that this works
  210. jonas’ that's just how biboumi works ;)
  211. flow and vica versa for IRC users joining the channel?
  212. jonas’ yep
  213. flow I always thought of biboumi if a personal gateway
  214. flow but I've to admint, I never used it. but that could change
  215. jonas’ the only difference between that and a normal MUC is that XMPP specific protocols are mostly discarded (avatars, typing notifications etc.) and that biboumi will split overlong messages.
  216. flow jonas’, dou you know if this required any interaction with OFTC operators to setup up?
  217. jonas’ not if you have only have one or two XMPP-side users on your instance
  218. jonas’ if you have more, you'll probably want to talk to them to agree on a model which scales for ident purposes
  219. jonas’ my personal instance doesn't have many connections to OFTC, so I didn't bother
  220. jonas’ (I did bother for IRCnet though)
  221. jonas’ (where I just talked to one of the admins and got a something-line which granted me a higher limit)
  222. contrapunctus > contrapunctus, so you just need to extend biboumi to broadcast the XMPP magic to all connected XMPP users instead of using the IRC reflection? jonas’: wouldn't that mean all XMPP users are joining the IRC room, rather than my description of "bridging an MUC and an IRC room"? The benefit of the latter is, people can jump ship from IRC to XMPP without losing their community.
  223. flow I see, very interesting, thanks!
  224. jonas’ contrapunctus, what is the difference?
  225. jonas’ the practical difference
  226. jonas’ it is a MUC on the XMPP side and a channel on the IRC side
  227. jonas’ (except for the broadcast of XMPP magic, which could "easily" be implemented in biboumi)
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  230. contrapunctus and this MUC exists independently of the IRC channel? e.g. what happens if the IRC server goes down, or the IRC channel is destroyed?
  231. pep. > jonas’> (for which there is an issue I think but it simply hasn't been implemented) I remember some backlash against that
  232. jonas’ contrapunctus, ah, then it's gone :)
  233. jonas’ contrapunctus, if you want to avoid that, then yeah, the model needs to change so that the bridge component uses an existing MUC service (which it could and maybe should implement/provide on its own, but doesn't have to) instead of implementing MUC
  234. jonas’ that would also solve the XMPP magic broadcast, but comes with other challenges (mapping usernames between protocols, reserving usernames across protocols etc.)
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  236. jonas’ the advantage of the biboumi model in that regardis that the "primary" copy of the room lives on the protocol with the lower amount of features, i.e. biboumi can enforce, on the high-feature side, that clients don't make use of those features (spaces in nicknames)
  237. jonas’ that would need cooperation from the MUC service in the other model
  238. jonas’ the biboumi model also means that users can more directly interact with IRC, e.g. to place bans, run IRC-specific commands or to authenticate with NickServ
  239. jonas’ much of which is only partially standardized and cannot be dealt with in a generic way in a bridge
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  242. Zash Bot bridge but multiple puppets?
  243. contrapunctus I guess I'll start by implementing an MUC service as a learning project...it seems to be a common factor...
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  245. jonas’ contrapunctus, that sounds like a reasonable way to learn XMPP
  246. Zash Or some sort of FMUC/DMUC with IRC as one peer?
  247. jonas’ mmmm let biboumi instances speak f-muc with each other
  248. jonas’ ^5 Zash
  249. Zash **5
  250. jonas’ why not xor 0b101?
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  252. jonas’ contrapunctus, another bit to think about: if the IRC server goes down, what to do with XMPP messages sent in the meantime? lost to IRC users? probably ok, they're used to netsplits :)
  253. Zash ^ is power to me
  254. Zash Hm, why did I not read that as 'starts with 5' when coming from the sed master?
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  258. Kev FWIW, the M-Link IRC gateway works by bridging a MUC and an IRC channel, so anyone in either sees anyone in the other. It's much harder to deal with than a traditional 'join an IRC channel that looks like a MUC' gateway.
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  261. contrapunctus Kev: I see...by "much harder to deal with", do you mean for users, administrators, or the gateway authors?
  262. Kev Gateway authors.
  263. Kev And it needs the IRC server to be amenable to that many connections from the XMPP server.
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  298. contrapunctus Is a gateway/transport just a particular kind of component?
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  300. Kev They are often implemented as components, although don't need to be.
  301. Kev (And are the most common form of component)
  302. Zash Maybe you could say that gateway/transport is a role, component is a method of connecting to a server
  303. Zash A bot, connected as any other client, can have that role.
  304. Zash You can also do it with s2s connections
  305. Zash Or as an internal plugin in the sersver
  306. Zash Or as an internal plugin in the server
  307. contrapunctus Makes sense, thanks.
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  359. pulkomandy I think the mod_irc way makes sense (muc hosted on xmpp and happens to also be exported as a non-federated irc server). irc is already so fragmented that irc users won't mind joining yet another irc network (that just happens to in fact be the xmpp network)
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  361. Zash pulkomandy, don't mention that horror plz
  362. pulkomandy Until this happens, biboumi will do
  363. Kev It depends heavily on the reason people want an IRC bridge. There are (non-theoretical) situations where that model would make sense. There are also situations where it doesn't work at all.
  364. Zash Dealing with the differences between IRC and MUC is ... painful. Beware!
  365. Zash You'd probably have to enforce all IRC restrictions on MUC for it to work.
  366. Kev I actually think XMPP Server acting as an IRC server is the easiest of the models to make work sensibly.
  367. Zash Having been part of an attempt at this, that was not my experience.
  368. pulkomandy It depends how good you want the experience to be for the irc users, I guess
  369. Zash I think you just end up writing an IRC server that happens to talk a restricted subset of XMPP
  370. pulkomandy If you look at how Matrix does it (even when they just bridge their users to an existing irc): long messages get transformed to a link to their http server, that irc users need to click
  371. pulkomandy If a discussion is made mostly of long messages it gets v annoying very quickly
  372. Holger .oO( https://github.com/processone/ejabberd-contrib/tree/master/ircd doesn't seem to be super-actively maintained these days ... )
  373. Kev Zash: Interesting. I thought IRCv3 would cover quite a lot of things to make it not horrible.
  374. Zash Kev: Mmmm maybe IRCv3 makes it acceptable. Who knows?
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  379. nephele Matrixes bridge is nice for other reasons too, they transform messages with irc nicknames in them to the matrix equivalent nicknames... so if you were to pick a common noun on the irc side....
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