qyWhat do you think about using message colours to denote encryption type in weechat?
qyAlternatively, what would work well as a one character indicator for {plain,pgp,otr,omemo}
Ge0rGI think that might be confusing, at least if color is the only indicator.
Ge0rGA padlock with different letters / symbols in it?
qyI considered:
🔏 pgp
🔐 otr
🔒 omemo
🔓 plain
qyBut it's a bit small
qyI suppose if i add a letter after it, it could disambiguate, just leaves even less room per line
Samomemo and plain look basically identical to me on Snikket which has a mustard looking background
qyYeah
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qyIrritatingly not much seems to respect unicode variant 15 selector FE0E anymore, or i'd make the padlocks grayscale and then just colour them
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qyNeat, ok ⚿ works
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flowqy, are you working on an xmpp plugin for weechat?
qyI am, yes
qyTyping from it now actually
qyhttps://0x0.st/ozeN.jpg
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flowqy, source or it didn't happen :)
qyhttps://github.com/bqv/weechat-xmpp but have an alka-seltzer ready
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flowha :)
edhelasthat font-size 🔍
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qyYeah i like it small, more to see
Link Mauveqy, fyi, in my libvte3-based terminal I get a tofu character instead.
Link MauveMaybe just because I haven’t installed a needed font; I do see the PNG emojis though.✎
Link MauveMaybe just because I haven’t installed a needed font; I do see the PNG emoji though. ✏
qyLink Mauve: with ⚿?
qyAck, that would be a pain
Link MauveYes.
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nepheleI'm already confused by Gajim anotationg every public chat with a padlock and a "warning" sign next to it, as if something was wrong with my TLS setup, do you suppose more icons would help users much? :)
SamIs that some plugin thing? I don't think gajim does that for me (but I also don't use it except to test things on occasion)
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qySam: how does mcabber indicate enc?
SamI don't know, I don't use e2e encryption (except on occasion in Gajim for testing things, as I mentioned)
qyI think i'll just leave it to what i have now if there's no easier way, weechat users are power users, they'll notice anyway
nepheleSam: No idea it's "whatever ubuntu ships", I've never used e2ee in XMPP really, but Gajim shows this in every chat
Samnephele: screenshot? I'd just be curious what it is since I don't think I've ever seen it
nepheleThat's with the hover text visible, I've never used that option and clicking it does nothing (It doesn't behave like a button, but then it's incredibly hard to tell because the rest doesn't look like a button either...)
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Samoh yah, I do have that button but it's so low contrast on my theme at least that I can't even see it. It just looks like a blank spot on the panel.
Sam*slowclap* for GTK themes, I guess.
SamOr that icon, rather (it definitely should be a button being there in the middle of other buttons and it's surprising that it does nothing unlike everything around it)
nepheleI always assumed that it's supposed to be a button of sorts, but then... I also don't know what the rest does. There is a smiley which I assume is an emoji picker, a B that i assumed... is one too (it's probably formatted text, but it reminded me too much of blood type B) and then a plus and a clip thing which both mean "upload file" to me, but presumeably do different things..
MartinBecause here is a public semi anon muc.
MartinYou can't activate omemo or PGP.
MartinIt should work in 1-1 I guess.
nepheleIt might work, yes. But showing this button when there is no use just trains me as a user to ignore it
SamSeems to not do anything in any 1-1 for me, but maybe this is its greyed out mode and I just don't have any compatible contact or something
MartinOr no e2ee plugin.
Martin> It might work, yes. But showing this button when there is no use just trains me as a user to ignore it
Maybe to remind you that it's not e2e encrypted. No idea, I'm no gajim dev.
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wurstsalatThe orange exclamation mark comes from your theme. It should be an open padlock. The button is most likely disabled because there are no encryption plugins installed. And you cannot enable omemo for example if it's a public group chat. We're looking into whether it's a good idea to hide that button completely in public group chats
nephelewurstsalat: I don't really know what theme it is, i assume the gnome default one... but then ubuntu randomly changes stuff sometimes
qy[PGP encrypted message (XEP-0027)]
qyLink Mauve: * ellenor@umbrellix.net
qyOnly person in my keyring atm
qyTried larma but then remembered don't have their key
qy--> larma (https://dino.im#xmJ5qsm8JMe65pw0zN5qmUNgjPk) entered jdev@muc.xmpp.org as participant with PGP:072E9235DB996F2A
qyAnyway, point was, pgp does work in mucs, its just pointless outside of muc pms :p
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ZashIt can work. Awkwardly and with scaling issues tho.
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Ge0rGPGP over xmpp has a bunch of significant security issues, doesn't it? Like lack of replay protection...
qyYeah...
Ge0rGqy: how much is rich xmpp support limited by weechat's internal protocol? i.e. XEP-0184 message delivery receipts or media uploads?
Ge0rGqy: also your paste of larma's join has the https://dino.im#xmJ5qsm8JMe65pw0zN5qmUNgjPk URL embedded as an oob element, meaning it's supposed to be an inline file ;)
qyDelivery reports i send on activity, but don't really have a way to receive, but they're indicated in a sense by chatstate anyway. Media uploads, work fine with weechat-android at least, as you see earlier, i just hackily scan the message for http links and oob them
qyYeah that has somehow gone wrong
qyBut AIUI thanks to conversations, embeds are ignored unless the body matches them anyway
Ge0rGqy: s/thanks to conversations/in conversations/
Ge0rGyaxim will embed OOB URLs if they are *contained in* the body
qyOh, just them? I should fix it then
Ge0rGthe whole oob mess is horrible
ZashOOB also supports inclusion of a description in a `<desc/>`, but nothing supports that
ZashAnd then we have SIMS and XEP-0447
qyGe0rG: whats the ui like? If inline file, does it still show the body?
Link MauveZash, Gajim used to support it, until it aligned to Conversations’s lack of support.
Ge0rGqy: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2020-October/037828.html for context
Ge0rGqy: if body==url, only show the inline element, unless downloading fails, in which case show the url
Ge0rGqy: if body.contains(url), show body and embed url
Ge0rGqy: else: show body only
qyThats what i first expected, much better than what C does
qyGood
qyI'll aim for that
Ge0rGqy: but you need to be compatible with conversations because it's the standard™️
nepheleI heard the "mood" stuff is getting removed from Gajim aswell?
qyTrue... I think i'll go with the logic that if the url is at the start, embed it, otherwise don't. Then, even just a space can block that
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Zashembed :- body == ${oob.desc}\s{oob.url} || ${oob.url}\s${oob.desc} || ${oob.url} maybe?
qyBut then C users would always miss the desc
qyNo, they'd miss the embed if there's a desc
ZashYes
lovetoxmood makes not much sense in a world where you can put 3000 emojis into your status message to express your mood, rather then choosing from 40 possible moods
nepheleWell, funnily enough I wanted to see if using emoji was possible for the mood stuff, but... it really isn't, there is only a couple emoji that are for a specific emotion :)
nephelebut then with the ones in gajim i can't tell from the pictures what they would be either, i suppose the thing is too complex
lovetoxit its, give people a simple text field, and they can put in there all the emojis they want and some text
lovetoxits enough, no need for complicated protocol
lovetoxand we already have that with normal presence status message
nepheleThere are no emoji for most moods, and you'd make the /exact/ same argument for smileys, so why was mood okay then but not so much now?
lovetoxthere were no emojis back then, or like 20
lovetoxthe word emoji was not even in existence probably
nepheletext emotiocons were widely used then already, no?
lovetoxyeah of course everybody used like 5
lovetoxsmile, sad, lol
lovetoxthats about it
nepheleSo, if 5 were sufficient. why were then 80 moods defined?
lovetoxin that world, providing a xe with 40 emotions
lovetoxseems to be nice
nepheleAnyhow. I was talking about the status message
lovetoxwhy are there now 3000?
nepheleI don't think I even know how to make an UI to attach a mood to a message
nepheleemoji you mean?
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nepheleThe answer is simple: emoji don't convey just emotions, emoji are an non-phonetic alphabet by themselves
lovetoxits pretty easy, ever used teams?
lovetoxor facebook?
nepheleYou mean like group sports?
lovetoxyou can attach all kind of emojis to all posts on facebook
nepheleI don't use facebook, no
nephelethe UI of a multi user chat and a facebook post seem widely different to me, each "post" is given much more room in that paradigm, no?
flow> Ge0rG> PGP over xmpp has a bunch of significant security issues, doesn't it? Like lack of replay protection..
only if you use the old pgp xep, mind
nepheleAnd in that context it seems that the emoji are for /other/ people to attach, not for yourself to express the mood of a post
nepheleI don't suppose xmpp has an equivalent to a redaction request?
lovetoxyes it has
Sam(but nothing supports it)
lovetoxbut you cant do it, only moderators
lovetoxSam with Gajim unreleased you can
nepheleHeh, doesn't seem very usefull if only moderators can do that, oh well
lovetoxits against spam
lovetoxnot against accidental sending a message
nepheleIn matrix you can use this for your own messages, it's undestood to "only" be a request, but it works fairly well for that usecase in my experience
lovetoxthe mood xep allows you to attach a mood to your own message
lovetoxwhich is useless becasue you can just attach as many emojis as you want, without any xep
lovetoxso this has nothing to do with what facebook and teams can do
nepheleBut... they do exactly that: allow you to "attach" stuff that isn't in the message body directly, no?
lovetoxto messages of *other* people
lovetoxthe mood xep allows you only to attach stuff to a message you are currently sending
lovetoxnot even afterwards
ZashYou don't need to "attach" at all, just add emojis like 🙂 😉 😭️
nepheleLovetox: Yes, I said that I don't see any good UI to display that, you contered with the teams UI.. so it's not that after all?
nepheleAnyhow: I still don't think there is any good way to implement this UI way in the chat, but i don't see why it would have to go for the status stuff
ZashPretty sure retraction (what you call redaction) aka XEP-0424 is supported by some clients, I think the Tigase ones maybe?
lovetoxthen i misunsterstood
ZashWhile XEP-0425 is about moderator-invoked message redaction
lovetoxbut mood is not your status
lovetoxstatus is one thing where people put in there mood, and then there is the mood xep which puts it at another place
lovetoxso oyu have 2 places where you can publish that
lovetoxand thats ... nobody needs it
nepheleZash: Neat, I'll add that to my list of stuff to implement
nephelelovetox: In theory having a selector for emotions could be funky, but every such thing lives and dies with the UI :) I wonder if it would have gotten more exposure or more useage if the UI was any better
nepheleMaybe XMPP will get more of that stuff the discord api uses to display ingame status, hmm.
Zashhttps://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0196.html
lovetoxfor what, people dont care about the protocol, there is a textfield and an emoji chooser, every client has that
lovetoxso put in your mood in textform and if you want add 20 emojis
Zash2006 called, but you couldn't answer because you only support Jingle+WebRTC
lovetoxevery client can do this now, without any XEP
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nepheleI defy you on the grounds that Renga has no emoji picker :P
qy> lovetox wrote:
> so put in your mood in textform and if you want add 20 emojis
👌
qy^ Look, a reaction!
lovetoxah that reminds me, we even have that reactions xep somewhere
nepheleAnyhow: The custom status message does work for this case indeed. But it's not the same as publishing game status
larmahttps://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0444.html
ZashHamming distance("reaction", "retraction") 😕
SamThat reaction generates the same alert as any other message and demands my attention. Lots of identical ones will also take up a lot of vertical screen space and be confusing as opposed to "👌 2+" or whatever on the message which won't necessarily generate an alert or anything because clients know it's less important than a real message.
nepheleas for the other things the activity stuff had... I honestly don't know anyone who spends enough time infront of their chat client that they need to set and unset a status of showering or making breakfast :)
Zashqy: What did you do?!
nepheleSam: In matrix that was my only real reason to support reactions aswell, it gives people an outlet for their smappy messages and i can more easily ignore them :D
SamYah, when GitHub added reactions the number of "+1" emails I got went down *drastically* (note that it did not eliminate them, but I probably get 1 a week instead of dozens every day)
nepheleZash: why does your client not display my avatar?
Zash🤷️
qyMine doesnt either
nepheleAh... I see the "ressource" of my account for the iOS client has leaked my device name also... that's cool...
Zashmutters something about using resources for device identity instead of temporary random session identifiers
qyRessource?
Zashqy, localpart@hostpart/resourcepart ?
nepheleNot sure what the thing is called exactly, the part after the slash of the bare jid
qyoh, leaked privately
MartinResource in englisch, Ressource in german…
qyI thought you meant here
ZashReßource?
Samhuh, that's new "New OpenPGP messages found" and then if I hit decrypt it goes away but also I can't see any new messages or anything, congrats to whomever broke this chat :)
qyHahaha
qySorry
MartinReßørce…
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nepheleIf you put RTL unicode chars into the iOS device name apple will send emails with the device name with it included and mess up the rendering... but then again I'm only messing up my own emails with such shenanigans
nephelebut maybe I can inject trash into the ressource siskin uses that way, hehe
nepheleqy: Isn't that visible generally? Atleast in the buddy list I can see the ressource of other peopls devices
qyYeah, but not to us
qyMuc hides jids
qySo unless you add me, i cant see it
nepheleI see. For most people Here I do see avatars, I'm wondering if there is some configuration thing on my end that makes my avatar not shared or something
qyI can differentiate devices on weechat, but only by abusing caps identifiers
nepheleWell, I can't find anything in Gajim about sharing avatars if that is the reason. Oh well
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ZashServer? Config?
nepheleNo Idea, I'd have to ask what server it is :)
nepheleUhh, I don't see any material style buttons anywhere?
ZashThat may just be my theme.
ZashAccounts → Profile anyways
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qyBack to the embeds discussion, why was what i currently do wrong again? If i want to embed something for everything and C, i just send url only, otherwise, if body != url, sensible clients will show embed and body, and C will at least show the full body
qyIsn't that best?
nephele... How is that different to the account settings? No wonder I didn't find it
nepheleAnyhow, supposedly it is now shared :D
ZashI'm on the bleeding edge git version, lots of new stuff and I don't remember when this thing was introduced
nepheleWell, I would test but then I don't know if my feedback is that usefull, I don't understand how to use it in the released version either *shrug*
nepheleLike how there is two lists of chats and I have to move every chat back to the other list on start... it feels like i'm using it wrong, but i have no idea what I'm supposed to do instead
ZashLooks like your profile picture should be visible now. You might have to poke the status setting or leave and join to make it show for everyone
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qyI see it
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SamWhat is a good set of XMPP features to group SASL EXTERNAL with? I thought about making an "auth" package, but pretty much only EXTERNAL would be in it (since other SASL stuff is already implemented elsewhere), or maybe an "s2s" package (where bidi lives) but EXTERNAL isn't just used for s2s (even if it mostly is)… no idea where to put this.
SamMaybe I could have some sort of "security" package, I expect that would have other things in it eventually.
ZashWhere's the TLS stuff? Why isn't the other SASL stuff in an "auth" package?
SamOther SASL stuff isn't XMPP specific (whereas EXTERNAL checks the xmpp_address fields and what not) so it lives in the sasl library already
SamTLS stuff is in the "dialer" package with all the connection options
ZashIs client cert auth (for actual clients) a thing considered?
ZashMaybe split the EXTERNAL stuff into something generic that takes a callback or somesuch that does the specific certificate validation?
SamI guess I could upstream something like that into the SASL library, but it would be the same problem (where does this callback belong for users to find it easily?)
SamBut yah, this validates both clients and servers
SamOh, I lied too, direct TLS is just an option on the dialer, but StartTLS just lives in the base "xmpp" package for <reasons>. Too late to move it now though either way.
SamI feel like I've been thinking about this on and off for a long time; no idea where users would expect to find this functionality though. Maybe it's an indication that I grouped things badly from the get-go.
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ZashAPI design is hard :)
ZashIsn't SASL EXTERNAL used by email and IRC?
SamYes, but it's so generic as to be almost meaningless to call them the same thing. "Validate some other external thing" is the extent of the definition. XMPP's validation will be very different from emails, most likely.
SamFor all you know from the name it's validating ipsec instead of TLS, both are suggested implementations by the RFC IIRC :)
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ZashIs this client or server side btw? Or both?
ZashWouldn't any SASL method have some way to hook it up with something that verifies the credentials?
SamBoth. Sure, this has that
SamI'm just saying, that's why it's in the XMPP package, almost all the code is very XMPP specific.
ZashThings using channel bindings would also depend on the state of the TLS session, so maybe there's common ground there to design an API around?
Samin an XMPP library, not the upstream SASL library I mean.
SamHmm, good idea, I hadn't thought of that
ZashAnd validating a TLS certificate should already support some variations to account for different procedures in different protocols
SamRight now the channel binding support is just built into the SCRAM mechanisms in the upstream SASL library, but if I added a way to select between them or something that would potentially be a candidate to go in whatever this new package is called
SamMaybe I'll have a "security" or "auth" package then that includes both EXTERNAL and eventually a mechanism for selecting channel bindings if that ever becomes a thing; at least I'd know there's one other thing in the future so I don't end up with a single package with one tiny thing in it
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SamThanks; feels like that's the first progress I've made towards a decision in a while, gotta think about that a bit.
Zashnp :)
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qyYeah im gonna leave my embeds system as is
qyNot sure anything else is an improvement
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Link Mauvelovetox, have you thought about suggesting to deprecate User Mood and User Activity as specifications?
Link Mauve“19:12:21 nephele> I don't suppose xmpp has an equivalent to a redaction request?”, XEP-0424?