jdev - 2022-01-05


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  209. qy What do you think about using message colours to denote encryption type in weechat?
  210. qy Alternatively, what would work well as a one character indicator for {plain,pgp,otr,omemo}
  211. Ge0rG I think that might be confusing, at least if color is the only indicator.
  212. Ge0rG A padlock with different letters / symbols in it?
  213. qy I considered: 🔏 pgp 🔐 otr 🔒 omemo 🔓 plain
  214. qy But it's a bit small
  215. qy I suppose if i add a letter after it, it could disambiguate, just leaves even less room per line
  216. Sam omemo and plain look basically identical to me on Snikket which has a mustard looking background
  217. qy Yeah
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  219. qy Irritatingly not much seems to respect unicode variant 15 selector FE0E anymore, or i'd make the padlocks grayscale and then just colour them
  220. qy ⚿ has left
  221. qy⚿ has left
  222. qy Neat, ok ⚿ works
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  224. flow qy, are you working on an xmpp plugin for weechat?
  225. qy I am, yes
  226. qy Typing from it now actually
  227. qy https://0x0.st/ozeN.jpg
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  229. flow qy, source or it didn't happen :)
  230. qy https://github.com/bqv/weechat-xmpp but have an alka-seltzer ready
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  232. flow ha :)
  233. edhelas that font-size 🔍
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  236. qy Yeah i like it small, more to see
  237. Link Mauve qy, fyi, in my libvte3-based terminal I get a tofu character instead.
  238. Link Mauve Maybe just because I haven’t installed a needed font; I do see the PNG emojis though.
  239. Link Mauve Maybe just because I haven’t installed a needed font; I do see the PNG emoji though.
  240. qy Link Mauve: with ⚿?
  241. qy Ack, that would be a pain
  242. Link Mauve Yes.
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  254. nephele I'm already confused by Gajim anotationg every public chat with a padlock and a "warning" sign next to it, as if something was wrong with my TLS setup, do you suppose more icons would help users much? :)
  255. Sam Is that some plugin thing? I don't think gajim does that for me (but I also don't use it except to test things on occasion)
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  257. qy Sam: how does mcabber indicate enc?
  258. Sam I don't know, I don't use e2e encryption (except on occasion in Gajim for testing things, as I mentioned)
  259. qy I think i'll just leave it to what i have now if there's no easier way, weechat users are power users, they'll notice anyway
  260. nephele Sam: No idea it's "whatever ubuntu ships", I've never used e2ee in XMPP really, but Gajim shows this in every chat
  261. Sam nephele: screenshot? I'd just be curious what it is since I don't think I've ever seen it
  262. Alex has joined
  263. nephele https://xmpp.gryphno.de/upload/OLhuL6uQL3wSQu_h/gajim.png
  264. nephele That's with the hover text visible, I've never used that option and clicking it does nothing (It doesn't behave like a button, but then it's incredibly hard to tell because the rest doesn't look like a button either...)
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  267. Sam oh yah, I do have that button but it's so low contrast on my theme at least that I can't even see it. It just looks like a blank spot on the panel.
  268. Sam *slowclap* for GTK themes, I guess.
  269. Sam Or that icon, rather (it definitely should be a button being there in the middle of other buttons and it's surprising that it does nothing unlike everything around it)
  270. nephele I always assumed that it's supposed to be a button of sorts, but then... I also don't know what the rest does. There is a smiley which I assume is an emoji picker, a B that i assumed... is one too (it's probably formatted text, but it reminded me too much of blood type B) and then a plus and a clip thing which both mean "upload file" to me, but presumeably do different things..
  271. Martin Because here is a public semi anon muc.
  272. Martin You can't activate omemo or PGP.
  273. Martin It should work in 1-1 I guess.
  274. nephele It might work, yes. But showing this button when there is no use just trains me as a user to ignore it
  275. Sam Seems to not do anything in any 1-1 for me, but maybe this is its greyed out mode and I just don't have any compatible contact or something
  276. Martin Or no e2ee plugin.
  277. Martin > It might work, yes. But showing this button when there is no use just trains me as a user to ignore it Maybe to remind you that it's not e2e encrypted. No idea, I'm no gajim dev.
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  281. wurstsalat The orange exclamation mark comes from your theme. It should be an open padlock. The button is most likely disabled because there are no encryption plugins installed. And you cannot enable omemo for example if it's a public group chat. We're looking into whether it's a good idea to hide that button completely in public group chats
  282. qy Oh, i wouldnt be so sure
  283. qy Wait, ignore that
  284. qy 1
  285. Martin 2
  286. qy Martin: 3
  287. qy [PGP encrypted message (XEP-0027)]
  288. qy [PGP encrypted message (XEP-0027)]
  289. Link Mauve Who did you encrypt those to?
  290. Zash https://cerdale.zash.se/s/t3ObGgBLg8yoprbYTCCV1Aze/deec6ed5-0077-4c2d-96c8-87b5833dbc75.png
  291. nephele wurstsalat‎: I don't really know what theme it is, i assume the gnome default one... but then ubuntu randomly changes stuff sometimes
  292. qy [PGP encrypted message (XEP-0027)]
  293. qy Link Mauve: * ellenor@umbrellix.net
  294. qy Only person in my keyring atm
  295. qy Tried larma but then remembered don't have their key
  296. qy --> larma (https://dino.im#xmJ5qsm8JMe65pw0zN5qmUNgjPk) entered jdev@muc.xmpp.org as participant with PGP:072E9235DB996F2A
  297. qy Anyway, point was, pgp does work in mucs, its just pointless outside of muc pms :p
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  300. Zash It can work. Awkwardly and with scaling issues tho.
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  303. Ge0rG PGP over xmpp has a bunch of significant security issues, doesn't it? Like lack of replay protection...
  304. qy Yeah...
  305. Ge0rG qy: how much is rich xmpp support limited by weechat's internal protocol? i.e. XEP-0184 message delivery receipts or media uploads?
  306. Ge0rG qy: also your paste of larma's join has the https://dino.im#xmJ5qsm8JMe65pw0zN5qmUNgjPk URL embedded as an oob element, meaning it's supposed to be an inline file ;)
  307. qy Delivery reports i send on activity, but don't really have a way to receive, but they're indicated in a sense by chatstate anyway. Media uploads, work fine with weechat-android at least, as you see earlier, i just hackily scan the message for http links and oob them
  308. qy Yeah that has somehow gone wrong
  309. qy But AIUI thanks to conversations, embeds are ignored unless the body matches them anyway
  310. Ge0rG qy: s/thanks to conversations/in conversations/
  311. Ge0rG yaxim will embed OOB URLs if they are *contained in* the body
  312. qy Oh, just them? I should fix it then
  313. Ge0rG the whole oob mess is horrible
  314. Zash OOB also supports inclusion of a description in a `<desc/>`, but nothing supports that
  315. Zash And then we have SIMS and XEP-0447
  316. qy Ge0rG: whats the ui like? If inline file, does it still show the body?
  317. Link Mauve Zash, Gajim used to support it, until it aligned to Conversations’s lack of support.
  318. Ge0rG qy: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2020-October/037828.html for context
  319. Ge0rG qy: if body==url, only show the inline element, unless downloading fails, in which case show the url
  320. Ge0rG qy: if body.contains(url), show body and embed url
  321. Ge0rG qy: else: show body only
  322. qy Thats what i first expected, much better than what C does
  323. qy Good
  324. qy I'll aim for that
  325. Ge0rG qy: but you need to be compatible with conversations because it's the standard™️
  326. nephele I heard the "mood" stuff is getting removed from Gajim aswell?
  327. qy True... I think i'll go with the logic that if the url is at the start, embed it, otherwise don't. Then, even just a space can block that
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  329. Zash embed :- body == ${oob.desc}\s{oob.url} || ${oob.url}\s${oob.desc} || ${oob.url} maybe?
  330. qy But then C users would always miss the desc
  331. qy No, they'd miss the embed if there's a desc
  332. Zash Yes
  333. lovetox mood makes not much sense in a world where you can put 3000 emojis into your status message to express your mood, rather then choosing from 40 possible moods
  334. nephele Well, funnily enough I wanted to see if using emoji was possible for the mood stuff, but... it really isn't, there is only a couple emoji that are for a specific emotion :)
  335. nephele but then with the ones in gajim i can't tell from the pictures what they would be either, i suppose the thing is too complex
  336. lovetox it its, give people a simple text field, and they can put in there all the emojis they want and some text
  337. lovetox its enough, no need for complicated protocol
  338. lovetox and we already have that with normal presence status message
  339. nephele There are no emoji for most moods, and you'd make the /exact/ same argument for smileys, so why was mood okay then but not so much now?
  340. lovetox there were no emojis back then, or like 20
  341. lovetox the word emoji was not even in existence probably
  342. nephele text emotiocons were widely used then already, no?
  343. lovetox yeah of course everybody used like 5
  344. lovetox smile, sad, lol
  345. lovetox thats about it
  346. nephele So, if 5 were sufficient. why were then 80 moods defined?
  347. lovetox in that world, providing a xe with 40 emotions
  348. lovetox seems to be nice
  349. nephele Anyhow. I was talking about the status message
  350. lovetox why are there now 3000?
  351. nephele I don't think I even know how to make an UI to attach a mood to a message
  352. nephele emoji you mean?
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  357. nephele The answer is simple: emoji don't convey just emotions, emoji are an non-phonetic alphabet by themselves
  358. lovetox its pretty easy, ever used teams?
  359. lovetox or facebook?
  360. nephele You mean like group sports?
  361. lovetox you can attach all kind of emojis to all posts on facebook
  362. nephele I don't use facebook, no
  363. nephele the UI of a multi user chat and a facebook post seem widely different to me, each "post" is given much more room in that paradigm, no?
  364. flow > Ge0rG> PGP over xmpp has a bunch of significant security issues, doesn't it? Like lack of replay protection.. only if you use the old pgp xep, mind
  365. nephele And in that context it seems that the emoji are for /other/ people to attach, not for yourself to express the mood of a post
  366. lovetox https://share.hoerist.com/philipp/AvQnLoiUsLsATtV4/aa0707da-7530-4b61-af69-38b0a6408a2d.png
  367. lovetox there you go, thats how UI looks like to attach a mood to a message
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  369. nephele That only looks to work if you give each message much more room than in a chat :)
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  371. lovetox no, it works fine, microsoft teams does it for each chat message
  372. lovetox just imagine the smilies half that size
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  376. nephele So if teams does it and facebook, then I am even more confused why you use the existence of emoji /against/ moods
  377. lovetox https://blog.simbiox.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/emoji_chat_teams-1024x640.png
  378. nephele You managed to fit 12 lines of text on the screen :)
  379. nephele Krock: http://iteroni.com/watch?v=uKRAcBjn0Gs
  380. nephele wrong channel, sorry
  381. mac has joined
  382. nephele I don't suppose xmpp has an equivalent to a redaction request?
  383. lovetox yes it has
  384. Sam (but nothing supports it)
  385. lovetox but you cant do it, only moderators
  386. lovetox Sam with Gajim unreleased you can
  387. nephele Heh, doesn't seem very usefull if only moderators can do that, oh well
  388. lovetox its against spam
  389. lovetox not against accidental sending a message
  390. nephele In matrix you can use this for your own messages, it's undestood to "only" be a request, but it works fairly well for that usecase in my experience
  391. lovetox the mood xep allows you to attach a mood to your own message
  392. lovetox which is useless becasue you can just attach as many emojis as you want, without any xep
  393. lovetox so this has nothing to do with what facebook and teams can do
  394. nephele But... they do exactly that: allow you to "attach" stuff that isn't in the message body directly, no?
  395. lovetox to messages of *other* people
  396. lovetox the mood xep allows you only to attach stuff to a message you are currently sending
  397. lovetox not even afterwards
  398. Zash You don't need to "attach" at all, just add emojis like 🙂 😉 😭️
  399. nephele Lovetox: Yes, I said that I don't see any good UI to display that, you contered with the teams UI.. so it's not that after all?
  400. nephele Anyhow: I still don't think there is any good way to implement this UI way in the chat, but i don't see why it would have to go for the status stuff
  401. Zash Pretty sure retraction (what you call redaction) aka XEP-0424 is supported by some clients, I think the Tigase ones maybe?
  402. lovetox then i misunsterstood
  403. Zash While XEP-0425 is about moderator-invoked message redaction
  404. lovetox but mood is not your status
  405. lovetox status is one thing where people put in there mood, and then there is the mood xep which puts it at another place
  406. lovetox so oyu have 2 places where you can publish that
  407. lovetox and thats ... nobody needs it
  408. nephele Zash: Neat, I'll add that to my list of stuff to implement
  409. nephele lovetox: In theory having a selector for emotions could be funky, but every such thing lives and dies with the UI :) I wonder if it would have gotten more exposure or more useage if the UI was any better
  410. nephele Maybe XMPP will get more of that stuff the discord api uses to display ingame status, hmm.
  411. Zash https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0196.html
  412. lovetox for what, people dont care about the protocol, there is a textfield and an emoji chooser, every client has that
  413. lovetox so put in your mood in textform and if you want add 20 emojis
  414. Zash 2006 called, but you couldn't answer because you only support Jingle+WebRTC
  415. lovetox every client can do this now, without any XEP
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  417. nephele I defy you on the grounds that Renga has no emoji picker :P
  418. qy > lovetox wrote: > so put in your mood in textform and if you want add 20 emojis 👌
  419. qy ^ Look, a reaction!
  420. lovetox ah that reminds me, we even have that reactions xep somewhere
  421. nephele Anyhow: The custom status message does work for this case indeed. But it's not the same as publishing game status
  422. larma https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0444.html
  423. Zash Hamming distance("reaction", "retraction") 😕
  424. Sam That reaction generates the same alert as any other message and demands my attention. Lots of identical ones will also take up a lot of vertical screen space and be confusing as opposed to "👌 2+" or whatever on the message which won't necessarily generate an alert or anything because clients know it's less important than a real message.
  425. nephele as for the other things the activity stuff had... I honestly don't know anyone who spends enough time infront of their chat client that they need to set and unset a status of showering or making breakfast :)
  426. Zash qy: What did you do?!
  427. nephele Sam: In matrix that was my only real reason to support reactions aswell, it gives people an outlet for their smappy messages and i can more easily ignore them :D
  428. Zash https://cerdale.zash.se/s/4fv4DtV65v71aOW1wYUoDCLE/2ea95475-2d23-49e7-ba1c-c77de16d54f9.png
  429. qy Haha
  430. Sam Yah, when GitHub added reactions the number of "+1" emails I got went down *drastically* (note that it did not eliminate them, but I probably get 1 a week instead of dozens every day)
  431. nephele Zash: why does your client not display my avatar?
  432. Zash 🤷️
  433. qy Mine doesnt either
  434. nephele Ah... I see the "ressource" of my account for the iOS client has leaked my device name also... that's cool...
  435. Zash mutters something about using resources for device identity instead of temporary random session identifiers
  436. qy Ressource?
  437. Zash qy, localpart@hostpart/resourcepart ?
  438. nephele Not sure what the thing is called exactly, the part after the slash of the bare jid
  439. qy oh, leaked privately
  440. Martin Resource in englisch, Ressource in german…
  441. qy I thought you meant here
  442. Zash Reßource?
  443. Sam huh, that's new "New OpenPGP messages found" and then if I hit decrypt it goes away but also I can't see any new messages or anything, congrats to whomever broke this chat :)
  444. qy Hahaha
  445. qy Sorry
  446. Martin Reßørce…
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  448. nephele If you put RTL unicode chars into the iOS device name apple will send emails with the device name with it included and mess up the rendering... but then again I'm only messing up my own emails with such shenanigans
  449. nephele but maybe I can inject trash into the ressource siskin uses that way, hehe
  450. nephele qy: Isn't that visible generally? Atleast in the buddy list I can see the ressource of other peopls devices
  451. qy Yeah, but not to us
  452. qy Muc hides jids
  453. qy So unless you add me, i cant see it
  454. nephele I see. For most people Here I do see avatars, I'm wondering if there is some configuration thing on my end that makes my avatar not shared or something
  455. qy I can differentiate devices on weechat, but only by abusing caps identifiers
  456. nephele Well, I can't find anything in Gajim about sharing avatars if that is the reason. Oh well
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  458. Zash Server? Config?
  459. nephele No Idea, I'd have to ask what server it is :)
  460. Zash Gajim version?
  461. nephele 1.3.3
  462. Zash Did this thing exist then?
  463. Zash https://cerdale.zash.se/s/QO8Ym6mEk4GGpYq2wG_lJhVB/4713a6eb-59db-407c-9d6a-b4c746f1928d.png
  464. nephele Uhh, I don't see any material style buttons anywhere?
  465. Zash That may just be my theme.
  466. Zash Accounts → Profile anyways
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  469. qy Back to the embeds discussion, why was what i currently do wrong again? If i want to embed something for everything and C, i just send url only, otherwise, if body != url, sensible clients will show embed and body, and C will at least show the full body
  470. qy Isn't that best?
  471. nephele ... How is that different to the account settings? No wonder I didn't find it
  472. nephele Anyhow, supposedly it is now shared :D
  473. Zash I'm on the bleeding edge git version, lots of new stuff and I don't remember when this thing was introduced
  474. nephele Well, I would test but then I don't know if my feedback is that usefull, I don't understand how to use it in the released version either *shrug*
  475. nephele Like how there is two lists of chats and I have to move every chat back to the other list on start... it feels like i'm using it wrong, but i have no idea what I'm supposed to do instead
  476. Zash Looks like your profile picture should be visible now. You might have to poke the status setting or leave and join to make it show for everyone
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  480. qy I see it
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  490. Sam What is a good set of XMPP features to group SASL EXTERNAL with? I thought about making an "auth" package, but pretty much only EXTERNAL would be in it (since other SASL stuff is already implemented elsewhere), or maybe an "s2s" package (where bidi lives) but EXTERNAL isn't just used for s2s (even if it mostly is)… no idea where to put this.
  491. Sam Maybe I could have some sort of "security" package, I expect that would have other things in it eventually.
  492. Zash Where's the TLS stuff? Why isn't the other SASL stuff in an "auth" package?
  493. Sam Other SASL stuff isn't XMPP specific (whereas EXTERNAL checks the xmpp_address fields and what not) so it lives in the sasl library already
  494. Sam TLS stuff is in the "dialer" package with all the connection options
  495. Zash Is client cert auth (for actual clients) a thing considered?
  496. Zash Maybe split the EXTERNAL stuff into something generic that takes a callback or somesuch that does the specific certificate validation?
  497. Sam I guess I could upstream something like that into the SASL library, but it would be the same problem (where does this callback belong for users to find it easily?)
  498. Sam But yah, this validates both clients and servers
  499. Sam Oh, I lied too, direct TLS is just an option on the dialer, but StartTLS just lives in the base "xmpp" package for <reasons>. Too late to move it now though either way.
  500. Sam I feel like I've been thinking about this on and off for a long time; no idea where users would expect to find this functionality though. Maybe it's an indication that I grouped things badly from the get-go.
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  503. Zash API design is hard :)
  504. Zash Isn't SASL EXTERNAL used by email and IRC?
  505. Sam Yes, but it's so generic as to be almost meaningless to call them the same thing. "Validate some other external thing" is the extent of the definition. XMPP's validation will be very different from emails, most likely.
  506. Sam For all you know from the name it's validating ipsec instead of TLS, both are suggested implementations by the RFC IIRC :)
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  508. Zash Is this client or server side btw? Or both?
  509. Zash Wouldn't any SASL method have some way to hook it up with something that verifies the credentials?
  510. Sam Both. Sure, this has that
  511. Sam I'm just saying, that's why it's in the XMPP package, almost all the code is very XMPP specific.
  512. Zash Things using channel bindings would also depend on the state of the TLS session, so maybe there's common ground there to design an API around?
  513. Sam in an XMPP library, not the upstream SASL library I mean.
  514. Sam Hmm, good idea, I hadn't thought of that
  515. Zash And validating a TLS certificate should already support some variations to account for different procedures in different protocols
  516. Sam Right now the channel binding support is just built into the SCRAM mechanisms in the upstream SASL library, but if I added a way to select between them or something that would potentially be a candidate to go in whatever this new package is called
  517. Sam Maybe I'll have a "security" or "auth" package then that includes both EXTERNAL and eventually a mechanism for selecting channel bindings if that ever becomes a thing; at least I'd know there's one other thing in the future so I don't end up with a single package with one tiny thing in it
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  519. Sam Thanks; feels like that's the first progress I've made towards a decision in a while, gotta think about that a bit.
  520. Zash np :)
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  523. qy Yeah im gonna leave my embeds system as is
  524. qy Not sure anything else is an improvement
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  563. Link Mauve lovetox, have you thought about suggesting to deprecate User Mood and User Activity as specifications?
  564. Link Mauve “19:12:21 nephele> I don't suppose xmpp has an equivalent to a redaction request?”, XEP-0424?
  565. Link Mauve That’s for your own messages.
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