jdev - 2022-02-09

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  176. pep.

    How do I specify something that's still very much in use, when the document has evolved and this thing I want to specify "doesn't exist anymore" on paper but is still pretty much everywhere in practice

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  179. pep.


  180. Zash

    do we do Historical for those?

  181. pep.

    In particular, omemo vs pubsub#type

  182. pep.

    It's not historical

  183. pep.

    Is it

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  185. Zash

    Historical might still technically be for things invented prior to the [XJ]SF and [XJ]EP procedure existed, but I'm thinking it could be used for things developed outside of the XSF and that would be good to have a stable reference for

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  187. Zash

    to document "this is a thing that some software are doing"

  188. pep.

    I'd say my case also doesn't fit in there, unless you want me to do the thing first, make it a de-facto standard that everybody will rant about, and then come back with it

  189. Zash

    For O(LD)MEMO that was done as a version so that it went into the attic, tho that seems like a weird thing

  190. Zash

    Or did I misunderstand the whole thing?

  191. jonas’

    pep., put it in the omemo xep?

  192. Zash

    "This is your brain on meetings"

  193. pep.

    jonas’, the eu.siacs ns isn't a thing anymore

  194. pep.

    In the spec

  195. jonas’


  196. Zash

    Link to https://xmpp.org/extensions/attic/xep-0384-0.3.0.html

  197. pep.

    Can I branch 0384-0.3.0? :P

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  199. Zash

    See, perhaps it should have been a Historical XEP?

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  201. pep.

    Are we allowed to modify histerical xeps?

  202. jonas’


  203. pep.

    Are we allowed to modify hysterical xeps?

  204. jonas’

    is it worth the hassle to write even down what you intend to write down?

  205. pep.

    I was kinda asked to "because it's not specified" :/

  206. jonas’

    so just don't do pubsub#type for omemo?

  207. jonas’

    then it doesn't have to be specified :)

  208. jonas’

    just migrate to newmemo

  209. pep.

    Yeah in 10 years

  210. jonas’


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  212. pep.

    Anyway, it's interesting to know that there's no answer to this

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  214. jonas’

    the OMEMO spec history is really unfortunate

  215. Zash


  216. pep.

    I think it would be the same with any other(?) if you change/update the NS.. I guess there could be a note in the spec like "In an earlier version of this spec blah blah, you can do this and that"

  217. pep.

    ("update" also meaning ":0" -> ":1" to me)

  218. pep.

    (it's not the same ns anymore)

  219. Zash

    implementation note?

  220. pep.


  221. pep.

    I'll fill something for that. Waiting to be shutdown somewhat..

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  227. pep.

    Also, I'm wondering if it's written anywhere (or should be written anywhere) to prefer purging nodes instead of deleting them

  228. pep.

    So that doesn't ruin the work/expectations of other clients. Say I start filling pubsub#type on my nodes and somebody comes in, yanks everything and recreates the node without the field. Unless obviously that's on purpose

  229. jonas’

    I'd say other clients need to be able to deal with nodes not containing pubsub#tpye

  230. jonas’

    I'd say other clients need to be able to deal with nodes not containing pubsub#type

  231. pep.

    Sure, that's not my point

  232. jonas’

    it seems a bit futile in putting energy in polishing oldmemo that way then

  233. pep.

    Just that it'd kinda ruin the effort a client puts in

  234. pep.

    This doesn't just apply to OMEMO

  235. pep.

    It applies to everything pubsub

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  237. pep.

    Am I the only one seeing this as a generic issue? (purge/delete)

  238. Link Mauve

    I don’t think I’ve ever seen it being an issue.

  239. Link Mauve

    Maybe it is for OMEMO, which I don’t use.

  240. Link Mauve

    But for everything else PubSub, clients do the sensible thing.

  241. pep.

    Let's forget about OMEMO for a sec, that's not the point

  242. pep.

    I should have waited 24h before I started another topic

  243. pep.

    Link Mauve, and hmm, I do remember some devs discovering purge (gajim?) and being happy that it exists and that it can be used instead of delete. Might have been for avatars or the like, I don't remember the details

  244. pep.

    Say for privacy settings and whatnot

  245. pep.

    So if this dev didn't know about this, I don't want to imagine how many people getting into XMPP don't either.

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  249. jonas’

    pep., I just refused (deferred) to follow your topic change. You would've gotten the same comment if you hadn't written the other line.

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  251. pep.

    That doesn't answer my question really but ok. Link Mauve does, but I'm not sure I agree that clients "just do the sensible thing" (I have an example with gajim -- I can find logs again -- and gajim is not any client)

  252. pep.

    Or when gajim also used to reset max_items to 1, clearing microblog nodes. Or something similar

  253. pep.

    Mistakes happen, surely, but it'd be nice to guard against them somehow

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  259. pep.

    Would that fit modernxmpp btw? (or anywhere else?) Or will this just live as tribal knowledge

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  277. Stefan

    Yes, more information in the implementation notes + Appendix H: Revision History. Change namespace to urn:xmpp:omemo:1 -> Change namespace from eu..... to urn:xmpp:omemo:1 This would be very helpful.

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  350. moparisthebest

    other than gajim and pidgin, is anyone aware of other clients using _xmppconnect ?

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  354. flow

    don't you have the same issue with the http lookup method?

  355. Zash

    no because https

  356. flow

    ahh, yes

  357. flow

    luckily, smack appears to only implement the http lookup method, and not (yet) _xmppconnect

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  361. moparisthebest

    does it enforce https when doing the lookup ?

  362. Zash

    I suppose there's not much point in adding _xmppconnect checking support to prosodyctl then

  363. moparisthebest

    because indeed you can't trust it with regular http either

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  365. Zash

    Isn't that mandated by whatever defined /.well-known/host-meta ?

  366. Zash

    Beware HTTP redirects tho

  367. moparisthebest

    not much is because this was in those young carefree days when non-TLS was ok!

  368. moparisthebest

    the websocket rfc does say: > Thus, the connection endpoint is still authenticated, and the delegation is secure as long as the Web-host Metadata file is retrieved via HTTPS.

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  442. lovetox

    sooo, what does this mean, we should not use the dns method?

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  445. moparisthebest

    lovetox, well, do you enforce DNSSEC for it now? and how do you validate the certificate ?

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  448. moparisthebest

    and which if any domain do you send in SNI

  449. moparisthebest

    I expect the answer to be "the websocket library takes care of this" in which case you are vulnerable to MITM

  450. lovetox

    of course we pass the library just the url

  451. lovetox

    there is nothing more to configure

  452. lovetox

    except the protocoll "xmpp"

  453. lovetox

    i could implement the https method, but makes everything again more complicated

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  467. moparisthebest

    lovetox, so right now if _xmppconnect.example.org pointed to wss://evil.com/xmpp and evil.com presented a valid cert for evil.com you'd just trust it and go on ?

  468. moparisthebest

    I mean that's what I expect, but it's vulnerable to MITM :(

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  470. lovetox


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  472. moparisthebest

    it's only ok with DNSSEC, so I think I'm going to propose removing the DNS method alltogether from that XEP

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  475. lovetox

    yes, i dont see how any websocket library will support this

  476. Zash

    Tho cache poisoning attacks isn't _that_ easy to pull off

  477. moparisthebest

    if you go https, which of the 2 methods would you pick? XML or json ?

  478. moparisthebest

    (or both?)

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  481. lovetox


  482. moparisthebest

    I unfortunately also think that's more sensible

  483. lovetox

    because python, and json maps to python dicts

  484. lovetox


  485. moparisthebest

    well and which do you think 100% of web clients pick? :/

  486. moparisthebest

    I think I'll also propose getting rid of the XML method and see how that goes :P

  487. moparisthebest

    in the short term you might want to disable DNS websocket discovery to avoid mitm :/

  488. moparisthebest

    wonder what pidgin does and how to get ahold of them...

  489. Zash


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  491. moparisthebest

    didn't expect that

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  493. lovetox

    i also checked another python websocket lib, they also dont support this

  494. lovetox

    tls is always verified against the uri

  495. Link Mauve

    lovetox, note that the JSON method is optional, and the RDF one is mandatory.

  496. moparisthebest

    my rust websocket lib lets me pass in an already open+validated TLS connection, so I *can* validate against the proper domain

  497. Link Mauve

    So some servers (such as JabberFR’s) only provide a RDF file.

  498. moparisthebest

    but no web servers support this

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  501. moparisthebest

    which is a bigger problem

  502. moparisthebest

    ugh it's true https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7395#section-4

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  504. lovetox

    yeah then i will use xml

  505. lovetox

    i will not do 2 https requests

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  507. Zash


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  511. lovetox

    hm i abstracted that pretty good away, i can easily exchange the dns discovery for a https disovery

  512. lovetox

    and push this as a security update

  513. moparisthebest


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  516. moparisthebest

    oh no, tigase probably supports it, any tigase devs about? https://github.com/tigase/tigase-http-api/blob/2346fb8d4f7adf09707554dc16976f8e87f77548/src/main/groovy/tigase/http/modules/dnswebservice/DnsResolver.java#L168

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  518. moparisthebest


  519. moparisthebest

    https://github.com/search?p=3&q=_xmppconnect&type=Code if anyone wants to help :)

  520. Zash

    Wojtek, or try xmpp:tigase@muc.tigase.org?join maybe

  521. moparisthebest

    oh no https://github.com/xmppjs/xmpp.js/blob/63aecc49157980f6d68cc58605cf8a3fef664a2a/packages/resolve/lib/dns.js

  522. Zash


  523. moparisthebest

    14 years ago, maybe it's not being used? :crosses-fingers: https://github.com/HSSANN/jabber-net/blob/1b4e73417523426e854dd97b1b73ebc7e2876f0f/jabber/connection/HttpStanzaStream.cs

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  525. moparisthebest

    99% of the github search results are libpurple

  526. Zash

    purple clones?

  527. moparisthebest

    active on the play store https://github.com/BombusMod/BombusMod/blob/6672861668979fb3612ea5933d437f68c1df4931/src/main/java/io/DnsSrvResolver.java

  528. moparisthebest

    it's mostly libpurple forks or copy/pasted into various clients and/or adium forks etc

  529. lovetox

    can one have a cert which is valid for 2 domains, as in a.org and b.org?

  530. Zash


  531. flow


  532. Zash

    subjectAlternativeNames can contain any number of identities

  533. lovetox

    ok, i knew wildcard, and subdomains, but was unsure about completely different ones

  534. lovetox


  535. Zash

    you can put a video of you playing with your cat in there

  536. moparisthebest

    what in the world https://github.com/poVoq/converse_wp/blob/5df09d931fb5b70a0fd854a006c5623240677aeb/conversejs.php#L140

  537. moparisthebest

    lovetox, but SNI only lets you request a cert valid for 1 domain, which is fun

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  539. moparisthebest

    active project https://github.com/JustOxlamon/TwoRatChat/blob/8f75fa37f84367d7bc0fe9b61e0ff3554eda8c58/JabberNet-

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  561. moparisthebest

    no one has confirmed in pidgin muc yet, but looks to me like it supports BOSH only and is indeed vulnerable to mitm https://keep.imfreedom.org/pidgin/pidgin/file/tip/libpurple/protocols/jabber/bosh.c#l97

  562. moparisthebest

    unfortunately that looks like the biggest attack surface :'(

  563. moparisthebest

    (making at least pidgin, adium, chatty, thunderbird, and what else vulnerable ?)

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