jdev - 2022-02-09

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  176. pep. How do I specify something that's still very much in use, when the document has evolved and this thing I want to specify "doesn't exist anymore" on paper but is still pretty much everywhere in practice
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  179. pep. (oldmemo)
  180. Zash do we do Historical for those?
  181. pep. In particular, omemo vs pubsub#type
  182. pep. It's not historical
  183. pep. Is it
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  185. Zash Historical might still technically be for things invented prior to the [XJ]SF and [XJ]EP procedure existed, but I'm thinking it could be used for things developed outside of the XSF and that would be good to have a stable reference for
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  187. Zash to document "this is a thing that some software are doing"
  188. pep. I'd say my case also doesn't fit in there, unless you want me to do the thing first, make it a de-facto standard that everybody will rant about, and then come back with it
  189. Zash For O(LD)MEMO that was done as a version so that it went into the attic, tho that seems like a weird thing
  190. Zash Or did I misunderstand the whole thing?
  191. jonas’ pep., put it in the omemo xep?
  192. Zash "This is your brain on meetings"
  193. pep. jonas’, the eu.siacs ns isn't a thing anymore
  194. pep. In the spec
  195. jonas’ welp
  196. Zash Link to https://xmpp.org/extensions/attic/xep-0384-0.3.0.html
  197. pep. Can I branch 0384-0.3.0? :P
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  199. Zash See, perhaps it should have been a Historical XEP?
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  201. pep. Are we allowed to modify histerical xeps?
  202. jonas’ yes
  203. pep. Are we allowed to modify hysterical xeps?
  204. jonas’ is it worth the hassle to write even down what you intend to write down?
  205. pep. I was kinda asked to "because it's not specified" :/
  206. jonas’ so just don't do pubsub#type for omemo?
  207. jonas’ then it doesn't have to be specified :)
  208. jonas’ just migrate to newmemo
  209. pep. Yeah in 10 years
  210. jonas’ *shrug*
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  212. pep. Anyway, it's interesting to know that there's no answer to this
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  214. jonas’ the OMEMO spec history is really unfortunate
  215. Zash understatement?
  216. pep. I think it would be the same with any other(?) if you change/update the NS.. I guess there could be a note in the spec like "In an earlier version of this spec blah blah, you can do this and that"
  217. pep. ("update" also meaning ":0" -> ":1" to me)
  218. pep. (it's not the same ns anymore)
  219. Zash implementation note?
  220. pep. Yeah
  221. pep. I'll fill something for that. Waiting to be shutdown somewhat..
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  227. pep. Also, I'm wondering if it's written anywhere (or should be written anywhere) to prefer purging nodes instead of deleting them
  228. pep. So that doesn't ruin the work/expectations of other clients. Say I start filling pubsub#type on my nodes and somebody comes in, yanks everything and recreates the node without the field. Unless obviously that's on purpose
  229. jonas’ I'd say other clients need to be able to deal with nodes not containing pubsub#tpye
  230. jonas’ I'd say other clients need to be able to deal with nodes not containing pubsub#type
  231. pep. Sure, that's not my point
  232. jonas’ it seems a bit futile in putting energy in polishing oldmemo that way then
  233. pep. Just that it'd kinda ruin the effort a client puts in
  234. pep. This doesn't just apply to OMEMO
  235. pep. It applies to everything pubsub
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  237. pep. Am I the only one seeing this as a generic issue? (purge/delete)
  238. Link Mauve I don’t think I’ve ever seen it being an issue.
  239. Link Mauve Maybe it is for OMEMO, which I don’t use.
  240. Link Mauve But for everything else PubSub, clients do the sensible thing.
  241. pep. Let's forget about OMEMO for a sec, that's not the point
  242. pep. I should have waited 24h before I started another topic
  243. pep. Link Mauve, and hmm, I do remember some devs discovering purge (gajim?) and being happy that it exists and that it can be used instead of delete. Might have been for avatars or the like, I don't remember the details
  244. pep. Say for privacy settings and whatnot
  245. pep. So if this dev didn't know about this, I don't want to imagine how many people getting into XMPP don't either.
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  249. jonas’ pep., I just refused (deferred) to follow your topic change. You would've gotten the same comment if you hadn't written the other line.
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  251. pep. That doesn't answer my question really but ok. Link Mauve does, but I'm not sure I agree that clients "just do the sensible thing" (I have an example with gajim -- I can find logs again -- and gajim is not any client)
  252. pep. Or when gajim also used to reset max_items to 1, clearing microblog nodes. Or something similar
  253. pep. Mistakes happen, surely, but it'd be nice to guard against them somehow
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  259. pep. Would that fit modernxmpp btw? (or anywhere else?) Or will this just live as tribal knowledge
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  277. Stefan Yes, more information in the implementation notes + Appendix H: Revision History. Change namespace to urn:xmpp:omemo:1 -> Change namespace from eu..... to urn:xmpp:omemo:1 This would be very helpful.
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  350. moparisthebest other than gajim and pidgin, is anyone aware of other clients using _xmppconnect ?
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  354. flow don't you have the same issue with the http lookup method?
  355. Zash no because https
  356. flow ahh, yes
  357. flow luckily, smack appears to only implement the http lookup method, and not (yet) _xmppconnect
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  361. moparisthebest does it enforce https when doing the lookup ?
  362. Zash I suppose there's not much point in adding _xmppconnect checking support to prosodyctl then
  363. moparisthebest because indeed you can't trust it with regular http either
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  365. Zash Isn't that mandated by whatever defined /.well-known/host-meta ?
  366. Zash Beware HTTP redirects tho
  367. moparisthebest not much is because this was in those young carefree days when non-TLS was ok!
  368. moparisthebest the websocket rfc does say: > Thus, the connection endpoint is still authenticated, and the delegation is secure as long as the Web-host Metadata file is retrieved via HTTPS.
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  442. lovetox sooo, what does this mean, we should not use the dns method?
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  445. moparisthebest lovetox, well, do you enforce DNSSEC for it now? and how do you validate the certificate ?
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  448. moparisthebest and which if any domain do you send in SNI
  449. moparisthebest I expect the answer to be "the websocket library takes care of this" in which case you are vulnerable to MITM
  450. lovetox of course we pass the library just the url
  451. lovetox there is nothing more to configure
  452. lovetox except the protocoll "xmpp"
  453. lovetox i could implement the https method, but makes everything again more complicated
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  467. moparisthebest lovetox, so right now if _xmppconnect.example.org pointed to wss://evil.com/xmpp and evil.com presented a valid cert for evil.com you'd just trust it and go on ?
  468. moparisthebest I mean that's what I expect, but it's vulnerable to MITM :(
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  470. lovetox yes
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  472. moparisthebest it's only ok with DNSSEC, so I think I'm going to propose removing the DNS method alltogether from that XEP
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  475. lovetox yes, i dont see how any websocket library will support this
  476. Zash Tho cache poisoning attacks isn't _that_ easy to pull off
  477. moparisthebest if you go https, which of the 2 methods would you pick? XML or json ?
  478. moparisthebest (or both?)
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  481. lovetox json
  482. moparisthebest I unfortunately also think that's more sensible
  483. lovetox because python, and json maps to python dicts
  484. lovetox :)
  485. moparisthebest well and which do you think 100% of web clients pick? :/
  486. moparisthebest I think I'll also propose getting rid of the XML method and see how that goes :P
  487. moparisthebest in the short term you might want to disable DNS websocket discovery to avoid mitm :/
  488. moparisthebest wonder what pidgin does and how to get ahold of them...
  489. Zash xmpp:devel@conference.pidgin.im?join
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  491. moparisthebest didn't expect that
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  493. lovetox i also checked another python websocket lib, they also dont support this
  494. lovetox tls is always verified against the uri
  495. Link Mauve lovetox, note that the JSON method is optional, and the RDF one is mandatory.
  496. moparisthebest my rust websocket lib lets me pass in an already open+validated TLS connection, so I *can* validate against the proper domain
  497. Link Mauve So some servers (such as JabberFR’s) only provide a RDF file.
  498. moparisthebest but no web servers support this
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  501. moparisthebest which is a bigger problem
  502. moparisthebest ugh it's true https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7395#section-4
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  504. lovetox yeah then i will use xml
  505. lovetox i will not do 2 https requests
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  507. Zash (pipeline?)
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  511. lovetox hm i abstracted that pretty good away, i can easily exchange the dns discovery for a https disovery
  512. lovetox and push this as a security update
  513. moparisthebest nice!
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  516. moparisthebest oh no, tigase probably supports it, any tigase devs about? https://github.com/tigase/tigase-http-api/blob/2346fb8d4f7adf09707554dc16976f8e87f77548/src/main/groovy/tigase/http/modules/dnswebservice/DnsResolver.java#L168
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  518. moparisthebest adium...
  519. moparisthebest https://github.com/search?p=3&q=_xmppconnect&type=Code if anyone wants to help :)
  520. Zash Wojtek, or try xmpp:tigase@muc.tigase.org?join maybe
  521. moparisthebest oh no https://github.com/xmppjs/xmpp.js/blob/63aecc49157980f6d68cc58605cf8a3fef664a2a/packages/resolve/lib/dns.js
  522. Zash DoH?
  523. moparisthebest 14 years ago, maybe it's not being used? :crosses-fingers: https://github.com/HSSANN/jabber-net/blob/1b4e73417523426e854dd97b1b73ebc7e2876f0f/jabber/connection/HttpStanzaStream.cs
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  525. moparisthebest 99% of the github search results are libpurple
  526. Zash purple clones?
  527. moparisthebest active on the play store https://github.com/BombusMod/BombusMod/blob/6672861668979fb3612ea5933d437f68c1df4931/src/main/java/io/DnsSrvResolver.java
  528. moparisthebest it's mostly libpurple forks or copy/pasted into various clients and/or adium forks etc
  529. lovetox can one have a cert which is valid for 2 domains, as in a.org and b.org?
  530. Zash yes
  531. flow yes
  532. Zash subjectAlternativeNames can contain any number of identities
  533. lovetox ok, i knew wildcard, and subdomains, but was unsure about completely different ones
  534. lovetox :)
  535. Zash you can put a video of you playing with your cat in there
  536. moparisthebest what in the world https://github.com/poVoq/converse_wp/blob/5df09d931fb5b70a0fd854a006c5623240677aeb/conversejs.php#L140
  537. moparisthebest lovetox, but SNI only lets you request a cert valid for 1 domain, which is fun
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  539. moparisthebest active project https://github.com/JustOxlamon/TwoRatChat/blob/8f75fa37f84367d7bc0fe9b61e0ff3554eda8c58/JabberNet-
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  561. moparisthebest no one has confirmed in pidgin muc yet, but looks to me like it supports BOSH only and is indeed vulnerable to mitm https://keep.imfreedom.org/pidgin/pidgin/file/tip/libpurple/protocols/jabber/bosh.c#l97
  562. moparisthebest unfortunately that looks like the biggest attack surface :'(
  563. moparisthebest (making at least pidgin, adium, chatty, thunderbird, and what else vulnerable ?)
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