jdev - 2022-04-05

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  248. Nils Hey there, I have some questions for anybody who can help. I'm having a really hard time figuring out how to have E2EE voice and video calls in XMPP. (If this is not the place to discuss such things, let me know, as I have just joined the group.) Anytime you have a call, is it just transport layer encryption or is end to end encryption baked into the base XEP that allows for calls? Or is the "XEP-0320: Use of DTLS-SRTP in Jingle Sessions" needed? Or is this XEP being implemented? "Verify encrypted A/V calls with OMEMO" https://gist.github.com/iNPUTmice/aa4fc0aeea6ce5fb0e0fe04baca842cd Also how does ZRTP factor into this? I have only found one client (ATalk on F-Droid) that explicitly states supporting ZRTP and only one (Conversations) that supports SRTP. My understanding is that these two protocols provide E2EE, not just transport layer. Is this correct? What is the advantage of ZRTP over SRTP? And is there any XMPP iOS client that supports any kind of end to end encryption for calls? I have not seen one, at least with clear documentation of that. I also do not see much clear documentation of which XEP's are implemented on servers that relate to a/v calls. Any information would be helpful, especially from those with links to documentation, sources of information, or server admins.
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  253. MattJ Have you see https://gist.github.com/iNPUTmice/a28c438d9bbf3f4a3d4c663ffaa224d9#notes-for-developers too?
  254. MattJ Have you seen https://gist.github.com/iNPUTmice/a28c438d9bbf3f4a3d4c663ffaa224d9#notes-for-developers too?
  255. MattJ Not the standard, but it explains how they all fit together in an implementation
  256. MattJ Servers do nothing more than XEP-0215
  257. MattJ As for iOS, yes: Siskin supports encrypted calls
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  353. lovetox when a server offers scram1, 256, 512
  354. lovetox is it his job to have the password hash for all of them?
  355. lovetox meaning if the server had previously only 1 and 256, he can just add 512
  356. lovetox because he does not have the hash for 512
  357. Sam You wouldn't be able to just add 512 if you don't have the hash; there is no good upgrade mechanism for scram
  358. lovetox Sam believe me people definitly wood
  359. lovetox because they have no clue what it is
  360. lovetox but thats my point, its not my problem as a client dev
  361. lovetox because someone bugged me about adding 512
  362. Sam oh, I'm sorry, I thought you were asking, maybe I'm missing context.
  363. lovetox and that means gajim now chooses 512 if available
  364. Sam 512 isn't even a standardized thing yet, hopefully nothing changes before/if it ever becomes a standard
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  367. lovetox yes i know, but the one guy we all know about bugged all projects about it
  368. lovetox so they started adding it
  369. qy Neustradamus bugged everyone with a client, i think safe to ignore
  370. Sam Yes, I blocked him and didn't add it for that reason :)
  371. lovetox then users installed servers, without knowing what they did and activated it everywhere
  372. Sam Anyways, it's not likely to change, I'd just be worried that the working group would decide to add an upgrade mechanism or something then it would be incompatible with all the already deployed made up versions
  373. Sam But it will probably be okay.
  374. lovetox server manuals should put a big red sign on that setting
  375. lovetox describing in detail what it does to users
  376. lovetox like default is SCRAM-1
  377. lovetox and then a big red warning, dont activate anything else except you know what you are doing
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  379. Sam Yah, probably so
  380. Zash did we even document that?
  381. lovetox hm
  382. lovetox but there is a upgrade mechanism that comes to mind
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  384. lovetox switch the server to PLAIN, receive the pass, simulate the client hasing it and find the hash, afterwards rehash?
  385. Sam That will be seen as a downgrade attack by some clients
  386. Sam (Conversations in particular pins the mechanism and won't allow downgrade to an insecure one)
  387. lovetox but thats easily solved
  388. lovetox user deletes acc from C and readds it
  389. lovetox but yeah thats bothersome
  390. Sam That seems like extremely bad UX for the user
  391. lovetox then the user can just change the pass :D
  392. Sam Yah, forcing a passsword reset is annoying but is one way
  393. Sam (assuming they have a client that can do that)
  394. lovetox hm
  395. lovetox but i can still get around C
  396. lovetox ah no
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  401. lovetox it just will not send the pass damn
  402. Zash SASL2? SASL2!
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  405. Sam Honestly, while I do encourage the support for SCRAM which has applications where it's extremely useful, for general chat servers I'd just only allow PLAIN. It's probably safer against the kinds of real attacks that matter just because it's got hash agility, which is an *extremely* important property to have.
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  407. Sam [citation needed]
  408. Zash feels bad man
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  425. Link Mauve Sam, storing passwords in plain text is a really bad idea in my book.
  426. Link Mauve And if you store them hashed and do the PLAIN → SCRAM dance on the server it’ll take a huge lot of CPU power.
  427. lovetox yeah and there is no benefit or?
  428. lovetox you can just store them hashed
  429. Link Mauve But then you can only upgrade them on connection, which might not happen in a decade (or ever) for some users.
  430. lovetox ok, after a decade, i return an error text that says: you didnt loggin for a decade, call me if you want your acc back
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  443. Sam Link Mauve: Obviously you should not store passwords in plain text, you should hash them. PLAIN says nothing about how it's stored.
  444. Sam It's not perfect, it's better than SCRAM. Most of the time hashes aren't broken completely right away, instead you get things like SHA-1 showing weaknesses for a while. At that point you can start the upgrade process for users as they log in. Eventually if it is broken entirely, then you issue a password reset email or whatever to any remaining users and disable the old hashes.
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  447. Link Mauve (Not a reply to you, but) SHA-1 being broken means nothing to SCRAM-SHA-1, which is still perfectly fine.
  448. Link Mauve It’s a common misconception though, which might have prompted Neustradamus to go on his crusade.
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  450. Sam Oh yah, definitely, sorry, bad example
  451. Link Mauve Sam, we don’t have any mechanism for prompting a password reset atm, if we don’t know the email of a specific user they just get locked out. :(
  452. Sam Yah, that's also a huge problem
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  463. MattJ It's something I'll be working on this year
  464. Sam Extensible IBR was originally going to cover this sort of thing, but I never saw much interest in adoption so maybe something else is needed that's simpler
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  469. Kev Didn't Dave's SASL2 stuff cover this? Or was that only in principle?
  470. MattJ It does, I'm planning to implement it
  471. Zash Someone with motivation and free time really ought to look at {IBR,SASL,BIND}2 :tm:
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  473. Kev You have no idea how much I want to have the time (and/or one of the team's time) to properly look at stream startup things.
  474. Nils MattJ: Thank you, just read that Github page. So if I understand you right, servers implement XEP-0215 and SRTP encryption is handled on the client side? Is there a way to know if a specific call I'm having is encrypted with SRTP? I know ATalk does this but I would love to see it in Conversations or Blabber.im. And where did you find out that Siskin supports encrypted calls? Do you have a link? Thanks so much for the info.
  475. MattJ Conversations only supports encrypted calls, so anything that can successfully call with Conversations is using encryption
  476. Zash I think Dino might have a thing showing some encryption details?
  477. MattJ I guess that's also why Conversations doesn't show encryption status - there is only one possibility :)
  478. Zash Can't you do calls without OMEMO then?
  479. MattJ Yes, the call encryption is unrelated to OMEMO, it uses temporary keys
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  482. MattJ So I mean, "no, you can do calls without OMEMO"
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  485. Link Mauve Conversations also created a mechanism for reusing an OMEMO session to validate the DTLS-SRTP key exchange IIRC.
  486. MattJ If you have an OMEMO session with the contact, it also signs them via that so they can be verified
  487. Link Mauve Right, that.
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  491. Zash Where things (ZRTP things?) might show some fingerprints for manual verification otherwise
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  539. Nils Okay that's really good to know. Do you know if Blabber.im as it is a fork of Conversations, does the same forcing encryption thing? And just to be sure, you are talking about E2EE calls right?
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