jdev - 2022-05-16

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  270. lovetox

    hm is it allowed to store full jids in the roster?

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  275. lovetox

    makes not alot of sense for me, but do i need to expect that?

  276. Ge0rG

    lovetox: it's not allowed

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  279. lovetox

    hm i dont find it in the rfc

  280. lovetox

    its not mentioned in the description of the JID attribute

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  282. Ge0rG

    Yeah, I was surprised as well. Not sure if there is something about that in the presence management section

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  286. flow

    not explicitly forbidden IIRC

  287. Zash

    Yeah, iirc it says that presence management is done with bare JIDs

  288. lovetox

    Zash would prosody allow if i push a jid with a resource?

  289. lovetox

    or throw an error

  290. Zash


  291. flow

    that said, full (domain) JIDs in roster is probably something to consider forbidding in XMPP 2.0

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  293. flow

    and in general, everytime a spec says "put JID here" it should explicitly mention which jid types are allowed

  294. MattJ

    lovetox, it's likely to either error or silently strip the resource, but I haven't tested

  295. Zash

    Looking at the code, looks like it'll return modify, bad-request

  296. flow

    +1 for the return-error behavior

  297. lovetox

    ok so, if i silently skip full jids in a roster and just log a warning, i dont break some stuff

  298. lovetox

    then i will add that

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  303. flow

    lovetox, why not show the roster entries but forbid adding full jid roster entries?

  304. lovetox

    of course Gajim does not add full roster jids, its about what other servers and clients do, and what Gajim receives and how to deal with it

  305. lovetox

    i dont know what you mean with "show the roster entry"

  306. lovetox

    what exactly should i show in case of a full jid?

  307. lovetox

    treat it as a bare jid?

  308. flow

    lovetox, no simply show the full jid

  309. flow

    where you would normall show the bare jid

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  311. flow

    where you would normally show the bare jid

  312. flow

    why "skip full jids" in roster if you have allready received them? couldn't you just show the full-jid roster item as any other item?

  313. lovetox

    the jid is not just metadata text, its a roster item object in my application, the jid is important, its a object a lot of code operates with, it cant just be sometimes a full jid and sometimes a bare jid, otherwise i need to change all my code to expect both

  314. flow


  315. pep.

    Is there a use-case for a fulljid in the roster?

  316. pep.

    (explicitely not asking if it's allowed)

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  327. flow

    not the I am aware of, the best I could came up with ad-hoc is a contrived case where something puts a full jid in the roster and uses pubsub roster access model

  328. flow

    but such an approach appears insecure in the first place

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  333. pep.

    Well for example when using biboumi we're encouraged to add users in our roster. It's still a barejid (user%network@gateway) but I could see gateways doing this as well with a lesser format? (such as discussed here a few days ago) :/

  334. pep.

    Even though gateway-interaction stuff is probably better

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  338. flow

    lesser format?

  339. pep.

    Something like skype@component/user was mentioned

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  356. lovetox

    does anyone know, is it possible to PM contacts on irc via biboumi?

  357. pep.

    Yeah it is

  358. pep.

    Or it was at least

  359. moparisthebest

    lovetox, yea their bare JID is username%irc.whatever.com@yourbiboumi

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  365. lovetox

    yeah its super weird

  366. lovetox

    so actually you cannot pm someone

  367. lovetox

    not in the xmpp pm way

  368. Zash


  369. lovetox

    its just like a non-anon chat

  370. lovetox

    where every user has a real id

  371. Zash

    Pretty sure Biboumi handles #chan%irc.example/nickname too

  372. lovetox

    where every user has a real jid

  373. Zash

    and/or exposes "real" JIDs of the user%irc.net@biboumi shape

  374. lovetox

    ah but gajim prefers the real one

  375. Zash

    MUC PMs are weird anyway, doesn't everyone agree on that?

  376. moparisthebest

    yea looks like they are non-anonymous MUCs so if you "PM" someone you just get the real JID

  377. lovetox

    it gets weirder

  378. lovetox

    if i write to the resource

  379. Zash

    "and then it got weirder"

  380. Zash

    story of XMPP? 🙂

  381. lovetox

    biboumi seems to translate that and sends it from the user acc

  382. lovetox

    so actually if send to the resource, you never get an answer

  383. pep.

    Yeah I uess the weird thing is that there's no way to go from one to the other in clients

  384. lovetox

    or you do but form another jid

  385. Zash


  386. Zash

    I guess Biboumi would have to remember which channel you PM'd via since that info doesn't exist in IRC

  387. Zash

    And that's where I said "haha nope" and never touched IRC ever again

  388. pep.

    Does biboumi give us the realjid when talking to the PM-jid?

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  390. pep.

    Is there a way to know a make the change in the client ourselves

  391. pep.

    Presence isn't a thing also so..

  392. pep.

    Or is it

  393. pep.

    Not even talking about biboumi, is that doable in MUC. If one wanted to automatically switch to realjids when possible

  394. pep.

    Even though in MUC you'd be joined so you would have the info if it's there.

  395. moparisthebest

    that info doesn't need to exist because "bob" is the same person in all channels

  396. moparisthebest

    just in general in non-anonymous mucs why would you ever message anything *but* the real JID ?

  397. pep.

    Well biboumi could tell us somehow

  398. pep.

    moparisthebest, because your client allows you to

  399. pep.

    Because we're not all XMPP protocol nerds

  400. Zash

    Tell us what?

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  402. pep.

    Zash, the associated realjid

  403. Zash

    That #chan%irc.net@irc.gw/user == user%irc.net@irc.gw ?

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  405. Zash

    Didn't we establish that it does that already?

  406. pep.

    No, that it's exactly the same thing

  407. Zash

    Oh, you want aliases. We don't do aliases here.

  408. pep.

    aliases no. That'd be a hint for the client that it can do the switch if it wants to

  409. moparisthebest

    pep., I'm saying clients should never allow that, it's silly

  410. moparisthebest

    what possible reason would a client have for doing it?

  411. pep.

    That is, it can start talking to the realjid instead

  412. Zash

    It already can

  413. moparisthebest

    ignore biboumi for a second

  414. pep.

    It wouldn't know in a generic way

  415. moparisthebest

    in non-anonymous mucs, the client knows the real JID, and should only ever send messages to that

  416. moparisthebest

    it has this info

  417. lovetox

    meh moparisthebest

  418. pep.

    Sure, in the meantime, it's a thing

  419. moparisthebest

    I don't think so, all my clients already behave like this...

  420. lovetox

    i heard people say, they like that conversations are separated that way

  421. pep.

    When you get contacted via PM, you generally answer via PM

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  423. lovetox

    also if you are admin in an anon room

  424. lovetox

    you have the real jid of everyone

  425. pep.

    lovetox, yeah but you know it's an anon room

  426. lovetox

    but you propbably dont want to message them to the real jid

  427. lovetox

    in gajim you can choose if gajim prefers the real jid or not

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  429. pep.

    So I guess we "just" need to implement this automatic switch in clients?

  430. pep.

    Biboumi already gives us realjid info in MUCs right?

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  433. pep.

    It's just weird if one directly contacts a PM-jid

  434. pep.

    Because biboumi makes this possible without being joined, I think?

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  460. lovetox

    next question about roster, i guess no client should add a muc to the roster or?

  461. pep.

    lovetox, some want to add MIX rooms to the roster

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  463. lovetox

    would it be evident that it is a mix room?

  464. lovetox

    like from receiving the roster

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  466. pep.

    You'd need to disco certainly

  467. lovetox

    thats absolutely horrible

  468. pep.

    https://doc.biboumi.louiz.org/user.html#roster biboumi also encourages that

  469. lovetox

    not really

  470. lovetox

    these are JIDs, that support presence

  471. lovetox

    and you dont need to interact with them like a groupchat

  472. lovetox

    so fine by me

  473. lovetox

    the problem for me is, if someone sends me a contact in the roster, and then i need to interact with it as a muc

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  475. pep.

    I think it was the only way to do something because the other way was removed, but I don't remember what exactly.. (not useful, I know)

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