jdev - 2022-05-16

  1. lovetox

    hm is it allowed to store full jids in the roster?

  2. lovetox

    makes not alot of sense for me, but do i need to expect that?

  3. Ge0rG

    lovetox: it's not allowed

  4. lovetox

    hm i dont find it in the rfc

  5. lovetox

    its not mentioned in the description of the JID attribute

  6. Ge0rG

    Yeah, I was surprised as well. Not sure if there is something about that in the presence management section

  7. flow

    not explicitly forbidden IIRC

  8. Zash

    Yeah, iirc it says that presence management is done with bare JIDs

  9. lovetox

    Zash would prosody allow if i push a jid with a resource?

  10. lovetox

    or throw an error

  11. Zash


  12. flow

    that said, full (domain) JIDs in roster is probably something to consider forbidding in XMPP 2.0

  13. flow

    and in general, everytime a spec says "put JID here" it should explicitly mention which jid types are allowed

  14. MattJ

    lovetox, it's likely to either error or silently strip the resource, but I haven't tested

  15. Zash

    Looking at the code, looks like it'll return modify, bad-request

  16. flow

    +1 for the return-error behavior

  17. lovetox

    ok so, if i silently skip full jids in a roster and just log a warning, i dont break some stuff

  18. lovetox

    then i will add that

  19. flow

    lovetox, why not show the roster entries but forbid adding full jid roster entries?

  20. lovetox

    of course Gajim does not add full roster jids, its about what other servers and clients do, and what Gajim receives and how to deal with it

  21. lovetox

    i dont know what you mean with "show the roster entry"

  22. lovetox

    what exactly should i show in case of a full jid?

  23. lovetox

    treat it as a bare jid?

  24. flow

    lovetox, no simply show the full jid

  25. flow

    where you would normall show the bare jid

  26. flow

    where you would normally show the bare jid

  27. flow

    why "skip full jids" in roster if you have allready received them? couldn't you just show the full-jid roster item as any other item?

  28. lovetox

    the jid is not just metadata text, its a roster item object in my application, the jid is important, its a object a lot of code operates with, it cant just be sometimes a full jid and sometimes a bare jid, otherwise i need to change all my code to expect both

  29. flow


  30. pep.

    Is there a use-case for a fulljid in the roster?

  31. pep.

    (explicitely not asking if it's allowed)

  32. flow

    not the I am aware of, the best I could came up with ad-hoc is a contrived case where something puts a full jid in the roster and uses pubsub roster access model

  33. flow

    but such an approach appears insecure in the first place

  34. pep.

    Well for example when using biboumi we're encouraged to add users in our roster. It's still a barejid (user%network@gateway) but I could see gateways doing this as well with a lesser format? (such as discussed here a few days ago) :/

  35. pep.

    Even though gateway-interaction stuff is probably better

  36. flow

    lesser format?

  37. pep.

    Something like skype@component/user was mentioned

  38. lovetox

    does anyone know, is it possible to PM contacts on irc via biboumi?

  39. pep.

    Yeah it is

  40. pep.

    Or it was at least

  41. moparisthebest

    lovetox, yea their bare JID is username%irc.whatever.com@yourbiboumi

  42. lovetox

    yeah its super weird

  43. lovetox

    so actually you cannot pm someone

  44. lovetox

    not in the xmpp pm way

  45. Zash


  46. lovetox

    its just like a non-anon chat

  47. lovetox

    where every user has a real id

  48. Zash

    Pretty sure Biboumi handles #chan%irc.example/nickname too

  49. lovetox

    where every user has a real jid

  50. Zash

    and/or exposes "real" JIDs of the user%irc.net@biboumi shape

  51. lovetox

    ah but gajim prefers the real one

  52. Zash

    MUC PMs are weird anyway, doesn't everyone agree on that?

  53. moparisthebest

    yea looks like they are non-anonymous MUCs so if you "PM" someone you just get the real JID

  54. lovetox

    it gets weirder

  55. lovetox

    if i write to the resource

  56. Zash

    "and then it got weirder"

  57. Zash

    story of XMPP? 🙂

  58. lovetox

    biboumi seems to translate that and sends it from the user acc

  59. lovetox

    so actually if send to the resource, you never get an answer

  60. pep.

    Yeah I uess the weird thing is that there's no way to go from one to the other in clients

  61. lovetox

    or you do but form another jid

  62. Zash


  63. Zash

    I guess Biboumi would have to remember which channel you PM'd via since that info doesn't exist in IRC

  64. Zash

    And that's where I said "haha nope" and never touched IRC ever again

  65. pep.

    Does biboumi give us the realjid when talking to the PM-jid?

  66. pep.

    Is there a way to know a make the change in the client ourselves

  67. pep.

    Presence isn't a thing also so..

  68. pep.

    Or is it

  69. pep.

    Not even talking about biboumi, is that doable in MUC. If one wanted to automatically switch to realjids when possible

  70. pep.

    Even though in MUC you'd be joined so you would have the info if it's there.

  71. moparisthebest

    that info doesn't need to exist because "bob" is the same person in all channels

  72. moparisthebest

    just in general in non-anonymous mucs why would you ever message anything *but* the real JID ?

  73. pep.

    Well biboumi could tell us somehow

  74. pep.

    moparisthebest, because your client allows you to

  75. pep.

    Because we're not all XMPP protocol nerds

  76. Zash

    Tell us what?

  77. pep.

    Zash, the associated realjid

  78. Zash

    That #chan%irc.net@irc.gw/user == user%irc.net@irc.gw ?

  79. Zash

    Didn't we establish that it does that already?

  80. pep.

    No, that it's exactly the same thing

  81. Zash

    Oh, you want aliases. We don't do aliases here.

  82. pep.

    aliases no. That'd be a hint for the client that it can do the switch if it wants to

  83. moparisthebest

    pep., I'm saying clients should never allow that, it's silly

  84. moparisthebest

    what possible reason would a client have for doing it?

  85. pep.

    That is, it can start talking to the realjid instead

  86. Zash

    It already can

  87. moparisthebest

    ignore biboumi for a second

  88. pep.

    It wouldn't know in a generic way

  89. moparisthebest

    in non-anonymous mucs, the client knows the real JID, and should only ever send messages to that

  90. moparisthebest

    it has this info

  91. lovetox

    meh moparisthebest

  92. pep.

    Sure, in the meantime, it's a thing

  93. moparisthebest

    I don't think so, all my clients already behave like this...

  94. lovetox

    i heard people say, they like that conversations are separated that way

  95. pep.

    When you get contacted via PM, you generally answer via PM

  96. lovetox

    also if you are admin in an anon room

  97. lovetox

    you have the real jid of everyone

  98. pep.

    lovetox, yeah but you know it's an anon room

  99. lovetox

    but you propbably dont want to message them to the real jid

  100. lovetox

    in gajim you can choose if gajim prefers the real jid or not

  101. pep.

    So I guess we "just" need to implement this automatic switch in clients?

  102. pep.

    Biboumi already gives us realjid info in MUCs right?

  103. pep.

    It's just weird if one directly contacts a PM-jid

  104. pep.

    Because biboumi makes this possible without being joined, I think?

  105. lovetox

    next question about roster, i guess no client should add a muc to the roster or?

  106. pep.

    lovetox, some want to add MIX rooms to the roster

  107. lovetox

    would it be evident that it is a mix room?

  108. lovetox

    like from receiving the roster

  109. pep.

    You'd need to disco certainly

  110. lovetox

    thats absolutely horrible

  111. pep.

    https://doc.biboumi.louiz.org/user.html#roster biboumi also encourages that

  112. lovetox

    not really

  113. lovetox

    these are JIDs, that support presence

  114. lovetox

    and you dont need to interact with them like a groupchat

  115. lovetox

    so fine by me

  116. lovetox

    the problem for me is, if someone sends me a contact in the roster, and then i need to interact with it as a muc

  117. pep.

    I think it was the only way to do something because the other way was removed, but I don't remember what exactly.. (not useful, I know)