jdev - 2022-05-17

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  143. qy

    Is there an XEP for file sharing that isn't http-based, that is actually well supported among clients, yet?

  144. Zash

    The answer is something like "of these three properties you want, pick any two"

    👍 1
  145. qy


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  147. Zash

    There's Jingle FT, which is supported, not sure how widely exactly. It was plagued by interop problems before, tho might have settled by now. Doesn't work with multiple devices or MUC tho. Transfer methods have reliability issues.

  148. qy


  149. Kev

    Why would you not want it to be HTTP-based?

  150. Zash

    There are others like https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0385.html and https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0447.html but I don't think support is there yet.

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  152. Zash

    Obligatory confusion between negotiation and transfer!

  153. qy

    I'm mostly just curious. I know theres a tonne of XEPs around, at least two of which i really want to go somewhere fast

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  156. pep.

    Goffi has a jingle component fwiw

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  172. pep.

    Most of the benefits of http upload isn't that it's http anyway, it's that it's a component

  173. pep.

    And it can do offline / multiparty stuff

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  176. Zash

    Store and forward not dependent on origin availbility.

  177. Zash


  178. pep.


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  181. pulkomandy

    I am disappointed to not see http://samy.pl/pwnat/ used more often for p2p things (and in this case it could be a simplified version of it if the xmpp connection can be used to agree on tcp or udp port numbers)

  182. pulkomandy

    The basic idea is "send packets pretending that a connection is already open, and since the NAT/firewall on either side usually assumes all outgoing connections are allowed, it will actually work"

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  184. Zash

    Write a XEP? But then, p2p and multi-party distribution is still an issue

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  186. Zash

    Bittorrent is another thing. If you rope in the server as a peer you might get similar benefits as http upload

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  188. pep.

    hot take: http upload is only good as a negociated transport method behind jingle anyway :-°

  189. pep.

    hot take: http upload is only good as a negociated transport behind jingle anyway :-°

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  191. qy

    Im slightly keen to have ipfs as the backing proto for file transfer, but that'd need servers as ipfs nodes

  192. qy

    Or maybe not, clients could be

  193. qy

    Actually realistically it'd need neither, but that'd help for better resolution

  194. Zash

    p2p and mobile is also problematic wrt battery usage

  195. qy

    So yeah, serverside

  196. qy

    Possible to use go-ipfs externally as the server, and hook in by a mod_ipfs, and expose that to clients as some ipfs-native representation, and also http upload

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  202. qy

    I know people like bittorrent, but i really want ipfs to work, and to do that it just needs more projects with it baked in

  203. qy

    But in this case that'd need an xep probably and i don't wanna get bogged down in beaurocracy if nobody else likes the idea

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  249. msavoritias

    But whats the benefit since the server is gonna be involved either way 🤔

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  253. flow

    it's often *not* people not liking the idea, but people do not have the resources to explore and implement it

  254. moparisthebest

    msavoritias, what do you mean? this is XMPP, the server is always involved

  255. flow

    it's often *not* people not liking the idea, but people not having the resources to explore and implement it

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  265. msavoritias

    moparisthebest: i was talking about what qy said with ipfs

  266. moparisthebest

    right but how does it change anything I mean

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  274. qy

    msavoritias: the server hosts the original and seeds to ipfs, but clients dont need to fetch it from the server, they fetch it from any ipfs gateway or ipfs native, and if the server goes down, it's all still there because ipfs caching

  275. moparisthebest

    well, it *may* still be there

  276. moparisthebest

    qy, but I like the concept, sounds like you can base much of the XEP off http upload, give it a shot ?

  277. moparisthebest

    it's not so much bureaucracy

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  281. msavoritias

    Not to be a downer but this seems incompatible with gdpr. Unless specific case

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  283. moparisthebest

    not sure why it would be, you upload your file knowing all this in advance

  284. moparisthebest

    if it is, then so is XMPP, because you sent that message not knowing how long I'll keep it (might be forever)

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  287. msavoritias

    The difference is that in XMPP its not known how long true. With ipfs though its by design to be kept forever.

  288. msavoritias

    Or at least they try to

  289. moparisthebest

    not *really*, it's just as long as each node caches it, which in practice isn't so long

  290. moparisthebest

    at least last time I played with it a couple years ago...

  291. msavoritias

    That is what they advertise thougb

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  293. moparisthebest

    try it, run an ipfs node with your website on it, when you turn your node off your website will be gone

  294. msavoritias

    > moparisthebest wrote: > not sure why it would be, you upload your file knowing all this in advance You expect it to be on the server and the recipient/s With ipfs its in the server, the recipients and an unknown number of computers which have nothing to do with your server or the people you talk to

  295. msavoritias

    moparisthebest: as stated. It could be. But they advertise it for resiliency.

  296. msavoritias

    Just like most xmpp operators are not honey pots

  297. moparisthebest

    as far as I know ipfs doesn't really have a pre-fetching thing by default, you can only fetch things you know the unique hash of

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  333. qy


  334. qy

    nothing is fetched until advertised by a seeking node

  335. qy

    so hence, nothing is cached unless wanted

  336. Zash

    What would that do for latency?

  337. qy

    and caching is stronger with things more wanted

  338. qy

    it would be shit latency for anything not heavily cached, hence shit latency for anything not heavily wanted

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  340. qy

    but, the latency is almost always just a one-time thing, that's why for my ipfscat script, i prefetch from public gateways, so once it's on one it's pretty much on them all, and once it's there it's not going away for at least a day, usually longer

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  342. qy

    with a bunch of xmpp nodes on it, i'd wager it'd get a lot better anyway

  343. qy

    the ipfs network provenly gets better with more nodes

  344. pulkomandy

    what would that be used for in xmpp world? sharing a picture with a MUC? that's maybe ~1000 users max? or do you have some more interesting applications in mind? or is this just offtopic discussion now? (not that I mind offtopic things, just trying to follow the ideas)

  345. qy

    i'm mainly thinking just any random file sharing. i don't like HTTP and i'd rather support IPFS over that

  346. Zash

    the access pattern with http upload from what I can tell is that most hits is just after the referencing message was sent, then maybe the odd hit a bit later. something that improves with time doesn't sound great for that

  347. qy

    i already kinda use ipfs for file sharing anyway

  348. qy

    Zash, that's the thing, if servers are nodes, it wouldn't matter

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  353. qy

    if servers are nodes, they'll end up well connected to cdn gateways, because so much file sharing is occuring, so latency would be next to none in real terms

  354. qy

    it WOULD "improve with time", but in realistic terms, "time" would be pretty short because the links between servers and e.g. cloudflare-ipfs.com, would pretty much never be dropped due to constant access

  355. pulkomandy

    I don't really understand, for file sharing over XMPP usually I just want to send one file from one sender to one receiver, and I think I wouldn't want the files to be stored on random ipfs nodes along the way?

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  357. qy

    it would be terrible if servers weren't nodes, yes

  358. qy

    pulkomandy, imagine bittorrent, but ephemeral. that's all this is

  359. pulkomandy

    yes but that's what ipfs is already, so I don't see the link with xmpp

  360. qy

    the link is just that more nodes makes ipfs better, and more ipfs makes xmpp more file-resilient

  361. qy

    e.g. if a server goes down, currently, that makes all files "Gone"

  362. qy

    ipfs: that's not the case

  363. pulkomandy

    I consider that being able to delete a file easily and being sure it is not still there on some server is a feature. I guess we have very different uses for file sharing

  364. qy

    deleting anything on the internet is always a misfeature

  365. pulkomandy

    so we should preserve everything and drown in a sea of outdated and irrelevant information?

  366. Zash

    Servers probably don't go down in the few second window when the wast majority of downloads occur.

  367. qy

    nothing is preserved indefinitely, but ipfs allows elastic caching that means one server going down is next-to irrelevant

  368. moparisthebest

    you can't delete anything you share on the internet, that's a rule of the internet

  369. moparisthebest

    despite GDPR whining

  370. qy


  371. moparisthebest


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  374. pulkomandy

    as long as someone is interested in it

  375. pulkomandy

    my quest to recover and archive lost BeOS software says as much. Most of it was not on the internet anymore. People trying to track down software for PalmOS would say as much too

  376. qy

    i'm keen to get ipfs more public and embedded in more software. as long as servers are interested in adding it, and the xep process wouldn't be too beaurocratic and people are happy for it to be a thing, i don't mind writing one, but i won't bother if it won't be used

  377. pulkomandy

    also, my private conversations in XMPP are not exactly "the internet"

  378. qy

    i'm happy to write an xep and a mod_ipfs for prosody in lua, at best

  379. qy

    maybe an erlang module at a stretch

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  382. Zash

    I wonder if this couldn't be done with HTTP Upload and OOB?

  383. qy

    i mean, it could, with custom p2p, but then you'd be forsaking the existing ipfs p2p network

  384. qy

    it would be a no brainer to use the existing p2p network for extra dataresilience

  385. Zash

    As in, server provides a HTTP upload interface that gets stored into ipfs

  386. qy


  387. Zash

    Return ipfs:// URL

  388. qy

    probably. i've been eyeing that for some time, the http external upload interface is woefully incompatible, and http upload trivially so without modification

  389. Zash

    Or return some https://well-known-ipfs-gateway.example/ URL

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  391. qy

    but i'd also like to be able to modify one of those to suit, if happy

  392. qy

    up to you, as the server dev

  393. qy

    if prosody supports it, i'm sure more could happen

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  396. Zash

    Prosody supports it if you write a XEP-0114 external component 😉

  397. Zash

    or a module 🙂

  398. qy

    wait, wouldn't require an xep?

  399. qy

    i'm in

  400. qy

    would you be happy to advertise it as much as generic http upload?

  401. qy

    (i'm thinking just some comment in the default config, at best)

  402. Zash

    If it's done as a thing that exposes a http upload service but stores the file in ipfs, I'm not sure if any protocol changes are needed

  403. moparisthebest

    a module that accepts https uploads and returns https URLs to ipfs gateways would work without any protocol work easily

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  405. moparisthebest

    but is that what you want ?

  406. qy

    fab, i'll try it

  407. qy

    at a start, it's better than nothing

  408. Zash

    PoC or more thinking over a whiteboard might help, but now I'm going to be busy with pancake coma

  409. qy

    i can then rework that to include something more embedded with ipfs later

  410. Zash

    If the client has ipfs, it could just put stuff there directly and send, no server needed. Servers could provide (via XEP-0215 maybe or some other discovery method) ipfs gateways locally.

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  415. qy

    I'll see what i can draft

  416. moparisthebest

    yea that seems more like what you want, and 0 server work required

  417. moparisthebest

    send a regular "I uploaded this https file for you" @ an ipfs gateway for backward compat, with an added "or fetch with ipfs here" element, done

  418. Zash

    Here's where SIMS or similar would be nice, as it allows alternative transfer methods to be listed

  419. qy

    would it be more forward-thinking to implement it over SIMS?

  420. Zash

    SIMS is what the sending client would say, so if you're implementing both client and server bits then it might be sensible to look into

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  422. Zash

    That is, https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0385.html or maybe https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0447.html

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