jdev - 2022-06-11


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  101. qy I use libstrophe, cause it fits fine, i dont foresee ever needing "more"
  102. qy But then, my client isn't exactly "popular"
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  117. shinji Hi ! I'm trying to grasp the concept of xmpp authentication and specifically SCRAM-SHA-1. On the wiki there's "The client prepends the GS2 header ("n,,") to the initialMessage and base64-encodes the result." with initialMessage being ""n=" .. username .. ",r=" .. clientNonce". When you decode the base64 generated (biwsbj1yb21lbyxyPTZkNDQyYjVkOWU1MWE3NDBmMzY5ZTNkY2VjZjMxNzhl) it gives you "n,,n=romeo,rm442b5d9e51a740f369e3dcecf3178e". Isnt the equal sign missing after the r letter here ?
  118. shinji Hi ! I'm trying to grasp the concept of xmpp authentication and specifically SCRAM-SHA-1. On the wiki there's "The client prepends the GS2 header ("n,,") to the initialMessage and base64-encodes the result." with initialMessage being ""n=" .. username .. ",r=" .. clientNonce". When you decode the base64 generated (biwsbj1yb21lbyxyPTZkNDQyYjVkOWU1MWE3NDBmMzY5ZTNkY2VjZjMxNzhl) it gives you "n,,n=romeo,rm442b5d9e51a740f369e3dcecf3178e". Isnt the equal sign missing after the r letter here ? Here is the link https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/SASL_Authentication_and_SCRAM#SCRAM-SHA-1(-PLUS)
  119. shinji Nevermind
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  121. pep. > moparisthebest> virtually no popular XMPP client uses a common XMPP library, they all wrote their own, take from that what you will Ok it's not popular (:p) but sleekxmpp was a thing before poezio (right?)
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  161. moparisthebest pep.: Note I also consider "forking a library and rewriting+maintaining it yourself" as "writing your own" lol
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  165. pulkomandy It doesn't matter how the lib came to be and how it's maintained, the question is, is it used by two or more clients?
  166. moparisthebest And is that ever true?
  167. Zash No true popular client uses a library used by more than one client
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  172. pep. moparisthebest: except that sleekxmpp isn't actually maintained anymore and slix is now the one that's being used instead :x
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  174. Zash Gotta ensure the goalposts sits just beside Conversations
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  176. pep. I'd be curious to have usage stats on sleekxmpp/slix
  177. pep. Compared to other libs. Python also being a popular language
  178. Zash Smack is used by tons of things I think, but they don't count!
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  180. moparisthebest Not just conversations, also gajim, Dino, siskin, the other tigase clients
  181. moparisthebest Poezio and slix ? :)
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  185. Zash Actually, libpurple might count, depending on whether othre clients using it must be considered popular
  186. jonas’ is spectrum a client? :-)
  187. moparisthebest Right pidgin and libpurple
  188. moparisthebest Perhaps the rule is more like "only libraries developed in tandem with a client are usable in clients" ?
  189. moparisthebest I didn't make the rule I'm just pointing out there seems to be a pattern
  190. Zash Extend that reasoning to the protocol and you have Matrix
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  192. Zash Except that's disproved by the undeath of XMPP!
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  194. moparisthebest I don't think you can extend it to the protocol, XMPP libraries are very useful for bots and servers and such, just seemingly not clients
  195. moparisthebest I blame GUI work
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  200. Zash Isn't it fairly well-known that having components developed by separate teams introduces overhead?
  201. pulkomandy I am perfectly happy with how Gloox is designed and it fits well into my client so far
  202. pulkomandy and that's from a client which was already written with its own custom jabber thing when I started
  203. pulkomandy so it doesn't have to be this way?
  204. Zash Also, that effect that components separation tend to mirror organizational structure.
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  206. Zash Small team doing the whole client → single codebase - i.e. no library
  207. Sam I don't know that I buy all this. I don't know why no one reuses libraries, but some (not all) of them are perfectly suited to GUI work. aioxmpp, for example, is pretty well designed and could be used in clients much easier than building your own and with less overhead. I like to think Mellium could be too (but no one but me has done it, so I can't speak to that). I suspect it's a mix of NIH, lack of discover ability of the libraries, and bad documentation.
  208. Zash Don't forget 'historical reasons' 🙂
  209. Sam True.
  210. Zash I mean, I imagine Gajim predates aioxmpp by a number of years
  211. Zash What other Python clients are there?
  212. Sam There aren't many XMPP clients, and they're mostly legacy, so few new things yo reuse newer libraries.
  213. Zash Yaxim uses Smack
  214. Zash And I'm pretty sure Smack is used in tons of things, IIRC from poking around in the android store or something
  215. pulkomandy lack of discoverability? is https://xmpp.org/software/libraries/ not enough?
  216. Sam Yah, while the newer Babbler is rarely used.
  217. Sam pulkomandy: not really. I default to search and that page never shows up. Not our fault, and it's good that it exists, but one list doesn't make things better.
  218. Sam I tried to find the name of babbler the other day and it took me ages, various combinations of "java XMPP lib" didn't turn up much.
  219. Sam Well, they turned up Smack.
  220. pulkomandy I don't know I typed xmpp library in my search engine and this was one of the first hits
  221. Zash search engines work in mysterious ways
  222. Sam Lucky you. Probably some algorithm nonsense. Or a more specific search wuery
  223. pulkomandy the second result being https://github.com/topics/xmpp-library
  224. Sam Query, even
  225. pulkomandy so that's two lists :)
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  227. Zash Oh right, Converse.js uses strophe.js? Which is used in other things, tho certainly lots of more obscure things
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  232. adx > https://xmpp.org/software/libraries/ it's kinda ironic that the .net xmpp libs are called matrix
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  235. Zash predates matrix.org I think
  236. Sam That list appears to be extremely incomplete too, so even if you did find that at the top of your search I'm not sure how helpful it would be.
  237. Sam I mean, again, better than nothing, just not likely something I'd click through to while looking for something specific (and if I did, it doesn't give many options)
  238. Zash observation, there are 88 entries in the data, only 36 are renewed at any point
  239. Zash [the data]: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/blob/master/data/libraries.json
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  260. Zash Grouped by renewal year: 52 null 16 2022 9 2021 5 2020 2 2019 2 2018 2 2017
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  263. wurstsalat provide more DOAP
  264. Zash anyone up for giving the same treatment to the libraries page as the clients got?
  265. wurstsalat I can do that
  266. wurstsalat (same for server software)
  267. Zash ❤️
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  269. qy (w.r.t library discussion) see, my logic is, libstrophe is minimalist enough, that it allows building upon it to provide whatever functionality you need
  270. qy by that logic, if more people were like me and wanted to dev in C, C++, vala, zig, rust[c], whatver, libstrophe would be really popular
  271. qy because it doesn't inherently have any reusability issues
  272. qy in that sense, i kinda have built my own library on top of it, i just don't export it as a library
  273. qy firstly because it's half baked, but secondly because i don't want to maintain a library
  274. qy i imagine that's the solution though, having transport-level libraries like libstrophe, that things can then build on and provide language-native ergonomic bindings to
  275. qy just as an exercise, assuming python-c FFI was no issue whatsoever, imagine conversations rewritten to be built over libstrophe
  276. qy that would not be a problem, coding-wise
  277. qy InputMice: right?
  278. qy er, sorry, java-c
  279. qy wurstsalat; ditto python/gajim, i guess
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  281. qy http://strophe.im/libstrophe/doc/0.12.0/ for reference
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  284. pulkomandy gloox has interface higher level than this, but has "extension points" where you can easily add your own stuff. I think the API is quite well designed. I wouldn't want to write a client on top of something very lowlevel like libstrophe and have to re-figure out all XEPs myself
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  288. qy _shrug_ worked for me
  289. pulkomandy I'm not implying everyone should agree with me, that's how I feel about it, that's all
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  360. Stefan I have started to build a layer on top of libstrophe for XEPs implementations. Unfortunately, it's too much work for me. 🤷
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  393. Sam This is (more or less) the direction we took with Mellium, except that we also provide the higher level features. But if you don't like our implementation you can only use the low level stuff and write your own extras
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