jdev - 2022-06-11

  1. lovetox has joined
  2. Vaulor has left
  3. debacle has left
  4. Sam has left
  5. Sam has joined
  6. Kev has joined
  7. Kev has left
  8. mirux has joined
  9. mirux has left
  10. spiral has left
  11. spiral has joined
  12. Kev has joined
  13. antranigv has joined
  14. antranigv has left
  15. antranigv has joined
  16. antranigv has left
  17. Kev has left
  18. antranigv has joined
  19. raghavgururajan has joined
  20. xnamed has left
  21. Millesimus has left
  22. Millesimus has joined
  23. Kev has joined
  24. kfv has joined
  25. nik has joined
  26. Kev has left
  27. serge90 has left
  28. serge90 has joined
  29. mirux has joined
  30. Mx2 has joined
  31. dezant has left
  32. Yagizа has joined
  33. TheRealkarano has joined
  34. Mx2 has left
  35. dezant has joined
  36. Kev has joined
  37. Stefan has left
  38. Mx2 has joined
  39. Kev has left
  40. jgart has joined
  41. marc0s has left
  42. marc0s has joined
  43. Maranda has left
  44. Mjolnir Archon has left
  45. Mjolnir Archon has joined
  46. Maranda has joined
  47. Vaulor has joined
  48. Mx2 has left
  49. eu has left
  50. eu has joined
  51. Mx2 has joined
  52. Kev has joined
  53. Kev has left
  54. mirux has left
  55. mirux has joined
  56. atomicwatch has joined
  57. Kev has joined
  58. Kev has left
  59. Mx2 has left
  60. amee2k has joined
  61. Alex has joined
  62. Mx2 has joined
  63. Kev has joined
  64. Apollo has left
  65. jgart has left
  66. Kev has left
  67. al has joined
  68. amee2k has left
  69. Millesimus has left
  70. emus has joined
  71. Millesimus has joined
  72. wurstsalat has joined
  73. eu has left
  74. eu has joined
  75. Millesimus has left
  76. Kev has joined
  77. nik has left
  78. andrew has left
  79. andrew has joined
  80. nik has joined
  81. eu has left
  82. eu has joined
  83. Stefan has joined
  84. Kev has left
  85. al has left
  86. inky has left
  87. amee2k has joined
  88. pasdesushi has left
  89. Millesimus has joined
  90. pasdesushi has joined
  91. eu has left
  92. adx has joined
  93. debacle has joined
  94. Kev has joined
  95. Kev has left
  96. Millesimus has left
  97. Kev has joined
  98. eu has joined
  99. Alex has left
  100. Alex has joined
  101. qy I use libstrophe, cause it fits fine, i dont foresee ever needing "more"
  102. qy But then, my client isn't exactly "popular"
  103. jubalh has left
  104. amee2k has left
  105. Kev has left
  106. Apollo has joined
  107. Martin has left
  108. Martin has joined
  109. Mx2 has left
  110. Millesimus has joined
  111. Millesimus has left
  112. Kev has joined
  113. shinji has joined
  114. Mx2 has joined
  115. Millesimus has joined
  116. msavoritias has joined
  117. shinji Hi ! I'm trying to grasp the concept of xmpp authentication and specifically SCRAM-SHA-1. On the wiki there's "The client prepends the GS2 header ("n,,") to the initialMessage and base64-encodes the result." with initialMessage being ""n=" .. username .. ",r=" .. clientNonce". When you decode the base64 generated (biwsbj1yb21lbyxyPTZkNDQyYjVkOWU1MWE3NDBmMzY5ZTNkY2VjZjMxNzhl) it gives you "n,,n=romeo,rm442b5d9e51a740f369e3dcecf3178e". Isnt the equal sign missing after the r letter here ?
  118. shinji Hi ! I'm trying to grasp the concept of xmpp authentication and specifically SCRAM-SHA-1. On the wiki there's "The client prepends the GS2 header ("n,,") to the initialMessage and base64-encodes the result." with initialMessage being ""n=" .. username .. ",r=" .. clientNonce". When you decode the base64 generated (biwsbj1yb21lbyxyPTZkNDQyYjVkOWU1MWE3NDBmMzY5ZTNkY2VjZjMxNzhl) it gives you "n,,n=romeo,rm442b5d9e51a740f369e3dcecf3178e". Isnt the equal sign missing after the r letter here ? Here is the link https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/SASL_Authentication_and_SCRAM#SCRAM-SHA-1(-PLUS)
  119. shinji Nevermind
  120. shinji has left
  121. pep. > moparisthebest> virtually no popular XMPP client uses a common XMPP library, they all wrote their own, take from that what you will Ok it's not popular (:p) but sleekxmpp was a thing before poezio (right?)
  122. Kev has left
  123. eu has left
  124. eu has joined
  125. TheRealkarano has left
  126. dezant has left
  127. Johnson has joined
  128. xnamed has joined
  129. rom1dep has left
  130. dezant has joined
  131. Yagizа has left
  132. Johnson has left
  133. nik has left
  134. Apollo has left
  135. rom1dep has joined
  136. Kev has joined
  137. nik has joined
  138. Apollo has joined
  139. marc0s has left
  140. marc0s has joined
  141. Kev has left
  142. marc0s has left
  143. marc0s has joined
  144. Beherit has joined
  145. paul has left
  146. Sam has left
  147. Sam has joined
  148. Millesimus has left
  149. Kev has joined
  150. Johnson has joined
  151. Millesimus has joined
  152. amee2k has joined
  153. Johnson has left
  154. Johnson has joined
  155. Apollo has left
  156. Kev has left
  157. jubalh has joined
  158. Johnson has left
  159. marc0s has left
  160. marc0s has joined
  161. moparisthebest pep.: Note I also consider "forking a library and rewriting+maintaining it yourself" as "writing your own" lol
  162. dezant has left
  163. jubalh has left
  164. jubalh has joined
  165. pulkomandy It doesn't matter how the lib came to be and how it's maintained, the question is, is it used by two or more clients?
  166. moparisthebest And is that ever true?
  167. Zash No true popular client uses a library used by more than one client
  168. marc0s has left
  169. marc0s has joined
  170. jubalh has left
  171. Laura has left
  172. pep. moparisthebest: except that sleekxmpp isn't actually maintained anymore and slix is now the one that's being used instead :x
  173. antranigv has left
  174. Zash Gotta ensure the goalposts sits just beside Conversations
  175. Stefan has left
  176. pep. I'd be curious to have usage stats on sleekxmpp/slix
  177. pep. Compared to other libs. Python also being a popular language
  178. Zash Smack is used by tons of things I think, but they don't count!
  179. amee2k has left
  180. moparisthebest Not just conversations, also gajim, Dino, siskin, the other tigase clients
  181. moparisthebest Poezio and slix ? :)
  182. mirux has left
  183. mirux has joined
  184. dezant has joined
  185. Zash Actually, libpurple might count, depending on whether othre clients using it must be considered popular
  186. jonas’ is spectrum a client? :-)
  187. moparisthebest Right pidgin and libpurple
  188. moparisthebest Perhaps the rule is more like "only libraries developed in tandem with a client are usable in clients" ?
  189. moparisthebest I didn't make the rule I'm just pointing out there seems to be a pattern
  190. Zash Extend that reasoning to the protocol and you have Matrix
  191. Kev has joined
  192. Zash Except that's disproved by the undeath of XMPP!
  193. Mx2 has left
  194. moparisthebest I don't think you can extend it to the protocol, XMPP libraries are very useful for bots and servers and such, just seemingly not clients
  195. moparisthebest I blame GUI work
  196. Matrix Traveler (bot) has left
  197. homebeach has left
  198. homebeach has joined
  199. Matrix Traveler (bot) has joined
  200. Zash Isn't it fairly well-known that having components developed by separate teams introduces overhead?
  201. pulkomandy I am perfectly happy with how Gloox is designed and it fits well into my client so far
  202. pulkomandy and that's from a client which was already written with its own custom jabber thing when I started
  203. pulkomandy so it doesn't have to be this way?
  204. Zash Also, that effect that components separation tend to mirror organizational structure.
  205. Beherit has left
  206. Zash Small team doing the whole client → single codebase - i.e. no library
  207. Sam I don't know that I buy all this. I don't know why no one reuses libraries, but some (not all) of them are perfectly suited to GUI work. aioxmpp, for example, is pretty well designed and could be used in clients much easier than building your own and with less overhead. I like to think Mellium could be too (but no one but me has done it, so I can't speak to that). I suspect it's a mix of NIH, lack of discover ability of the libraries, and bad documentation.
  208. Zash Don't forget 'historical reasons' 🙂
  209. Sam True.
  210. Zash I mean, I imagine Gajim predates aioxmpp by a number of years
  211. Zash What other Python clients are there?
  212. Sam There aren't many XMPP clients, and they're mostly legacy, so few new things yo reuse newer libraries.
  213. Zash Yaxim uses Smack
  214. Zash And I'm pretty sure Smack is used in tons of things, IIRC from poking around in the android store or something
  215. pulkomandy lack of discoverability? is https://xmpp.org/software/libraries/ not enough?
  216. Sam Yah, while the newer Babbler is rarely used.
  217. Sam pulkomandy: not really. I default to search and that page never shows up. Not our fault, and it's good that it exists, but one list doesn't make things better.
  218. Sam I tried to find the name of babbler the other day and it took me ages, various combinations of "java XMPP lib" didn't turn up much.
  219. Sam Well, they turned up Smack.
  220. pulkomandy I don't know I typed xmpp library in my search engine and this was one of the first hits
  221. Zash search engines work in mysterious ways
  222. Sam Lucky you. Probably some algorithm nonsense. Or a more specific search wuery
  223. pulkomandy the second result being https://github.com/topics/xmpp-library
  224. Sam Query, even
  225. pulkomandy so that's two lists :)
  226. Kev has left
  227. Zash Oh right, Converse.js uses strophe.js? Which is used in other things, tho certainly lots of more obscure things
  228. mirux has left
  229. mirux has joined
  230. paul has joined
  231. nik has left
  232. adx > https://xmpp.org/software/libraries/ it's kinda ironic that the .net xmpp libs are called matrix
  233. debacle has left
  234. nik has joined
  235. Zash predates matrix.org I think
  236. Sam That list appears to be extremely incomplete too, so even if you did find that at the top of your search I'm not sure how helpful it would be.
  237. Sam I mean, again, better than nothing, just not likely something I'd click through to while looking for something specific (and if I did, it doesn't give many options)
  238. Zash observation, there are 88 entries in the data, only 36 are renewed at any point
  239. Zash [the data]: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/blob/master/data/libraries.json
  240. Apollo has joined
  241. Kev has joined
  242. dezant has left
  243. dezant has joined
  244. adx has left
  245. Kev has left
  246. rubi has left
  247. rubi has joined
  248. Apollo has left
  249. adx has joined
  250. Apollo has joined
  251. TheRealkarano has joined
  252. jubalh has joined
  253. Mx2 has joined
  254. dezant has left
  255. dezant has joined
  256. Johnson has joined
  257. Kev has joined
  258. Apollo has left
  259. Johnson has left
  260. Zash Grouped by renewal year: 52 null 16 2022 9 2021 5 2020 2 2019 2 2018 2 2017
  261. amee2k has joined
  262. Apollo has joined
  263. wurstsalat provide more DOAP
  264. Zash anyone up for giving the same treatment to the libraries page as the clients got?
  265. wurstsalat I can do that
  266. wurstsalat (same for server software)
  267. Zash ❤️
  268. jubalh has left
  269. qy (w.r.t library discussion) see, my logic is, libstrophe is minimalist enough, that it allows building upon it to provide whatever functionality you need
  270. qy by that logic, if more people were like me and wanted to dev in C, C++, vala, zig, rust[c], whatver, libstrophe would be really popular
  271. qy because it doesn't inherently have any reusability issues
  272. qy in that sense, i kinda have built my own library on top of it, i just don't export it as a library
  273. qy firstly because it's half baked, but secondly because i don't want to maintain a library
  274. qy i imagine that's the solution though, having transport-level libraries like libstrophe, that things can then build on and provide language-native ergonomic bindings to
  275. qy just as an exercise, assuming python-c FFI was no issue whatsoever, imagine conversations rewritten to be built over libstrophe
  276. qy that would not be a problem, coding-wise
  277. qy InputMice: right?
  278. qy er, sorry, java-c
  279. qy wurstsalat; ditto python/gajim, i guess
  280. Kev has left
  281. qy http://strophe.im/libstrophe/doc/0.12.0/ for reference
  282. inky has joined
  283. Laura has joined
  284. pulkomandy gloox has interface higher level than this, but has "extension points" where you can easily add your own stuff. I think the API is quite well designed. I wouldn't want to write a client on top of something very lowlevel like libstrophe and have to re-figure out all XEPs myself
  285. Apollo has left
  286. adx has left
  287. jubalh has joined
  288. qy _shrug_ worked for me
  289. pulkomandy I'm not implying everyone should agree with me, that's how I feel about it, that's all
  290. nik has left
  291. Mx2 has left
  292. amee2k has left
  293. Mx2 has joined
  294. inky has left
  295. marc0s has left
  296. marc0s has joined
  297. marc0s has left
  298. marc0s has joined
  299. selurvedu has left
  300. Kev has joined
  301. inky has joined
  302. marc0s has left
  303. marc0s has joined
  304. Mx2 has left
  305. Laura has left
  306. Laura has joined
  307. Laura has left
  308. Kev has left
  309. Stefan has joined
  310. Stefan has left
  311. Mx2 has joined
  312. nik has joined
  313. Matrix Traveler (bot) has left
  314. homebeach has left
  315. homebeach has joined
  316. Matrix Traveler (bot) has joined
  317. dezant has left
  318. amee2k has joined
  319. rom1dep has left
  320. Sam has left
  321. rom1dep has joined
  322. marc0s has left
  323. marc0s has joined
  324. Sam has joined
  325. dezant has joined
  326. Sam has left
  327. Kev has joined
  328. inky has left
  329. Sam has joined
  330. nik has left
  331. amee2k has left
  332. mirux has left
  333. mirux has joined
  334. inky has joined
  335. Kev has left
  336. Laura has joined
  337. spiral has left
  338. serge90 has left
  339. Laura has left
  340. Alastair Hogge has left
  341. Alastair Hogge has joined
  342. Laura has joined
  343. spiral has joined
  344. dezant has left
  345. serge90 has joined
  346. Sam has left
  347. debacle has joined
  348. Sam has joined
  349. Johnson has joined
  350. dezant has joined
  351. inky has left
  352. Johnson has left
  353. Johnson has joined
  354. Johnson has left
  355. Kev has joined
  356. nik has joined
  357. debacle has left
  358. debacle has joined
  359. Stefan has joined
  360. Stefan I have started to build a layer on top of libstrophe for XEPs implementations. Unfortunately, it's too much work for me. 🤷
  361. xnamed has left
  362. coleman has left
  363. Kev has left
  364. amee2k has joined
  365. inky has joined
  366. Mx2 has left
  367. Mx2 has joined
  368. adx has joined
  369. Kev has joined
  370. pasdesushi has left
  371. Kev has left
  372. coleman has joined
  373. pasdesushi has joined
  374. Sam has left
  375. Sam has joined
  376. Mx2 has left
  377. dezant has left
  378. dezant has joined
  379. nik has left
  380. Mx2 has joined
  381. PapaTutuWawa has joined
  382. eu has left
  383. eu has joined
  384. Kev has joined
  385. debacle has left
  386. debacle has joined
  387. Schimon has joined
  388. Kev has left
  389. dezant has left
  390. raghavgururajan has left
  391. xnamed has joined
  392. TheRealkarano has left
  393. Sam This is (more or less) the direction we took with Mellium, except that we also provide the higher level features. But if you don't like our implementation you can only use the low level stuff and write your own extras
  394. dezant has joined
  395. Alex has left
  396. lovetox has left
  397. Alex has joined
  398. atomicwatch has left
  399. Kev has joined
  400. atomicwatch has joined
  401. Alex has left
  402. Alex has joined
  403. lovetox has joined
  404. amee2k has left
  405. debacle has left
  406. amee2k has joined
  407. jgart has joined
  408. Kev has left
  409. mirux has left
  410. mirux has joined
  411. moparisthebest has left
  412. lovetox has left
  413. jgart has left
  414. emus has left
  415. lovetox has joined
  416. atomicwatch has left
  417. Kev has joined
  418. atomicwatch has joined
  419. Kev has left
  420. mirux has left
  421. Kev has joined
  422. Sam has left
  423. Sam has joined
  424. moparisthebest has joined
  425. Sam has left
  426. Kev has left
  427. Sam has joined
  428. Millesimus has left
  429. PapaTutuWawa has left
  430. Laura has left
  431. Laura has joined
  432. adx has left
  433. kikuchiyo has left
  434. kikuchiyo has joined
  435. xnamed has left
  436. debacle has joined
  437. Kev has joined
  438. Mx2 has left
  439. atomicwatch has left
  440. Kev has left
  441. adx has joined
  442. atomicwatch has joined
  443. msavoritias has left
  444. Mx2 has joined
  445. Kev has joined
  446. Sam has left
  447. Sam has joined
  448. selurvedu has joined
  449. Kev has left
  450. adx has left
  451. marc0s has left
  452. marc0s has joined
  453. Zash has left
  454. Mx2 has left