jdev - 2022-06-11

  1. lovetox has joined

  2. Vaulor has left

  3. debacle has left

  4. Sam has left

  5. Sam has joined

  6. Kev has joined

  7. Kev has left

  8. mirux has joined

  9. mirux has left

  10. spiral has left

  11. spiral has joined

  12. Kev has joined

  13. antranigv has joined

  14. antranigv has left

  15. antranigv has joined

  16. antranigv has left

  17. Kev has left

  18. antranigv has joined

  19. raghavgururajan has joined

  20. xnamed has left

  21. Millesimus has left

  22. Millesimus has joined

  23. Kev has joined

  24. kfv has joined

  25. nik has joined

  26. Kev has left

  27. serge90 has left

  28. serge90 has joined

  29. mirux has joined

  30. Mx2 has joined

  31. dezant has left

  32. Yagizа has joined

  33. TheRealkarano has joined

  34. Mx2 has left

  35. dezant has joined

  36. Kev has joined

  37. Stefan has left

  38. Mx2 has joined

  39. Kev has left

  40. jgart has joined

  41. marc0s has left

  42. marc0s has joined

  43. Maranda has left

  44. Mjolnir Archon has left

  45. Mjolnir Archon has joined

  46. Maranda has joined

  47. Vaulor has joined

  48. Mx2 has left

  49. eu has left

  50. eu has joined

  51. Mx2 has joined

  52. Kev has joined

  53. Kev has left

  54. mirux has left

  55. mirux has joined

  56. atomicwatch has joined

  57. Kev has joined

  58. Kev has left

  59. Mx2 has left

  60. amee2k has joined

  61. Alex has joined

  62. Mx2 has joined

  63. Kev has joined

  64. Apollo has left

  65. jgart has left

  66. Kev has left

  67. al has joined

  68. amee2k has left

  69. Millesimus has left

  70. emus has joined

  71. Millesimus has joined

  72. wurstsalat has joined

  73. eu has left

  74. eu has joined

  75. Millesimus has left

  76. Kev has joined

  77. nik has left

  78. andrew has left

  79. andrew has joined

  80. nik has joined

  81. eu has left

  82. eu has joined

  83. Stefan has joined

  84. Kev has left

  85. al has left

  86. inky has left

  87. amee2k has joined

  88. pasdesushi has left

  89. Millesimus has joined

  90. pasdesushi has joined

  91. eu has left

  92. adx has joined

  93. debacle has joined

  94. Kev has joined

  95. Kev has left

  96. Millesimus has left

  97. Kev has joined

  98. eu has joined

  99. Alex has left

  100. Alex has joined

  101. qy

    I use libstrophe, cause it fits fine, i dont foresee ever needing "more"

  102. qy

    But then, my client isn't exactly "popular"

  103. jubalh has left

  104. amee2k has left

  105. Kev has left

  106. Apollo has joined

  107. Martin has left

  108. Martin has joined

  109. Mx2 has left

  110. Millesimus has joined

  111. Millesimus has left

  112. Kev has joined

  113. shinji has joined

  114. Mx2 has joined

  115. Millesimus has joined

  116. msavoritias has joined

  117. shinji

    Hi ! I'm trying to grasp the concept of xmpp authentication and specifically SCRAM-SHA-1. On the wiki there's "The client prepends the GS2 header ("n,,") to the initialMessage and base64-encodes the result." with initialMessage being ""n=" .. username .. ",r=" .. clientNonce". When you decode the base64 generated (biwsbj1yb21lbyxyPTZkNDQyYjVkOWU1MWE3NDBmMzY5ZTNkY2VjZjMxNzhl) it gives you "n,,n=romeo,rm442b5d9e51a740f369e3dcecf3178e". Isnt the equal sign missing after the r letter here ?

  118. shinji

    Hi ! I'm trying to grasp the concept of xmpp authentication and specifically SCRAM-SHA-1. On the wiki there's "The client prepends the GS2 header ("n,,") to the initialMessage and base64-encodes the result." with initialMessage being ""n=" .. username .. ",r=" .. clientNonce". When you decode the base64 generated (biwsbj1yb21lbyxyPTZkNDQyYjVkOWU1MWE3NDBmMzY5ZTNkY2VjZjMxNzhl) it gives you "n,,n=romeo,rm442b5d9e51a740f369e3dcecf3178e". Isnt the equal sign missing after the r letter here ? Here is the link https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/SASL_Authentication_and_SCRAM#SCRAM-SHA-1(-PLUS)

  119. shinji


  120. shinji has left

  121. pep.

    > moparisthebest> virtually no popular XMPP client uses a common XMPP library, they all wrote their own, take from that what you will Ok it's not popular (:p) but sleekxmpp was a thing before poezio (right?)

  122. Kev has left

  123. eu has left

  124. eu has joined

  125. TheRealkarano has left

  126. dezant has left

  127. Johnson has joined

  128. xnamed has joined

  129. rom1dep has left

  130. dezant has joined

  131. Yagizа has left

  132. Johnson has left

  133. nik has left

  134. Apollo has left

  135. rom1dep has joined

  136. Kev has joined

  137. nik has joined

  138. Apollo has joined

  139. marc0s has left

  140. marc0s has joined

  141. Kev has left

  142. marc0s has left

  143. marc0s has joined

  144. Beherit has joined

  145. paul has left

  146. Sam has left

  147. Sam has joined

  148. Millesimus has left

  149. Kev has joined

  150. Johnson has joined

  151. Millesimus has joined

  152. amee2k has joined

  153. Johnson has left

  154. Johnson has joined

  155. Apollo has left

  156. Kev has left

  157. jubalh has joined

  158. Johnson has left

  159. marc0s has left

  160. marc0s has joined

  161. moparisthebest

    pep.: Note I also consider "forking a library and rewriting+maintaining it yourself" as "writing your own" lol

  162. dezant has left

  163. jubalh has left

  164. jubalh has joined

  165. pulkomandy

    It doesn't matter how the lib came to be and how it's maintained, the question is, is it used by two or more clients?

  166. moparisthebest

    And is that ever true?

  167. Zash

    No true popular client uses a library used by more than one client

  168. marc0s has left

  169. marc0s has joined

  170. jubalh has left

  171. Laura has left

  172. pep.

    moparisthebest: except that sleekxmpp isn't actually maintained anymore and slix is now the one that's being used instead :x

  173. antranigv has left

  174. Zash

    Gotta ensure the goalposts sits just beside Conversations

  175. Stefan has left

  176. pep.

    I'd be curious to have usage stats on sleekxmpp/slix

  177. pep.

    Compared to other libs. Python also being a popular language

  178. Zash

    Smack is used by tons of things I think, but they don't count!

  179. amee2k has left

  180. moparisthebest

    Not just conversations, also gajim, Dino, siskin, the other tigase clients

  181. moparisthebest

    Poezio and slix ? :)

  182. mirux has left

  183. mirux has joined

  184. dezant has joined

  185. Zash

    Actually, libpurple might count, depending on whether othre clients using it must be considered popular

  186. jonas’

    is spectrum a client? :-)

  187. moparisthebest

    Right pidgin and libpurple

  188. moparisthebest

    Perhaps the rule is more like "only libraries developed in tandem with a client are usable in clients" ?

  189. moparisthebest

    I didn't make the rule I'm just pointing out there seems to be a pattern

  190. Zash

    Extend that reasoning to the protocol and you have Matrix

  191. Kev has joined

  192. Zash

    Except that's disproved by the undeath of XMPP!

  193. Mx2 has left

  194. moparisthebest

    I don't think you can extend it to the protocol, XMPP libraries are very useful for bots and servers and such, just seemingly not clients

  195. moparisthebest

    I blame GUI work

  196. Matrix Traveler (bot) has left

  197. homebeach has left

  198. homebeach has joined

  199. Matrix Traveler (bot) has joined

  200. Zash

    Isn't it fairly well-known that having components developed by separate teams introduces overhead?

  201. pulkomandy

    I am perfectly happy with how Gloox is designed and it fits well into my client so far

  202. pulkomandy

    and that's from a client which was already written with its own custom jabber thing when I started

  203. pulkomandy

    so it doesn't have to be this way?

  204. Zash

    Also, that effect that components separation tend to mirror organizational structure.

  205. Beherit has left

  206. Zash

    Small team doing the whole client → single codebase - i.e. no library

  207. Sam

    I don't know that I buy all this. I don't know why no one reuses libraries, but some (not all) of them are perfectly suited to GUI work. aioxmpp, for example, is pretty well designed and could be used in clients much easier than building your own and with less overhead. I like to think Mellium could be too (but no one but me has done it, so I can't speak to that). I suspect it's a mix of NIH, lack of discover ability of the libraries, and bad documentation.

  208. Zash

    Don't forget 'historical reasons' 🙂

  209. Sam


  210. Zash

    I mean, I imagine Gajim predates aioxmpp by a number of years

  211. Zash

    What other Python clients are there?

  212. Sam

    There aren't many XMPP clients, and they're mostly legacy, so few new things yo reuse newer libraries.

  213. Zash

    Yaxim uses Smack

  214. Zash

    And I'm pretty sure Smack is used in tons of things, IIRC from poking around in the android store or something

  215. pulkomandy

    lack of discoverability? is https://xmpp.org/software/libraries/ not enough?

  216. Sam

    Yah, while the newer Babbler is rarely used.

  217. Sam

    pulkomandy: not really. I default to search and that page never shows up. Not our fault, and it's good that it exists, but one list doesn't make things better.

  218. Sam

    I tried to find the name of babbler the other day and it took me ages, various combinations of "java XMPP lib" didn't turn up much.

  219. Sam

    Well, they turned up Smack.

  220. pulkomandy

    I don't know I typed xmpp library in my search engine and this was one of the first hits

  221. Zash

    search engines work in mysterious ways

  222. Sam

    Lucky you. Probably some algorithm nonsense. Or a more specific search wuery

  223. pulkomandy

    the second result being https://github.com/topics/xmpp-library

  224. Sam

    Query, even

  225. pulkomandy

    so that's two lists :)

  226. Kev has left

  227. Zash

    Oh right, Converse.js uses strophe.js? Which is used in other things, tho certainly lots of more obscure things

  228. mirux has left

  229. mirux has joined

  230. paul has joined

  231. nik has left

  232. adx

    > https://xmpp.org/software/libraries/ it's kinda ironic that the .net xmpp libs are called matrix

  233. debacle has left

  234. nik has joined

  235. Zash

    predates matrix.org I think

  236. Sam

    That list appears to be extremely incomplete too, so even if you did find that at the top of your search I'm not sure how helpful it would be.

  237. Sam

    I mean, again, better than nothing, just not likely something I'd click through to while looking for something specific (and if I did, it doesn't give many options)

  238. Zash

    observation, there are 88 entries in the data, only 36 are renewed at any point

  239. Zash

    [the data]: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/blob/master/data/libraries.json

  240. Apollo has joined

  241. Kev has joined

  242. dezant has left

  243. dezant has joined

  244. adx has left

  245. Kev has left

  246. rubi has left

  247. rubi has joined

  248. Apollo has left

  249. adx has joined

  250. Apollo has joined

  251. TheRealkarano has joined

  252. jubalh has joined

  253. Mx2 has joined

  254. dezant has left

  255. dezant has joined

  256. Johnson has joined

  257. Kev has joined

  258. Apollo has left

  259. Johnson has left

  260. Zash

    Grouped by renewal year: 52 null 16 2022 9 2021 5 2020 2 2019 2 2018 2 2017

  261. amee2k has joined

  262. Apollo has joined

  263. wurstsalat

    provide more DOAP

  264. Zash

    anyone up for giving the same treatment to the libraries page as the clients got?

  265. wurstsalat

    I can do that

  266. wurstsalat

    (same for server software)

  267. Zash


  268. jubalh has left

  269. qy

    (w.r.t library discussion) see, my logic is, libstrophe is minimalist enough, that it allows building upon it to provide whatever functionality you need

  270. qy

    by that logic, if more people were like me and wanted to dev in C, C++, vala, zig, rust[c], whatver, libstrophe would be really popular

  271. qy

    because it doesn't inherently have any reusability issues

  272. qy

    in that sense, i kinda have built my own library on top of it, i just don't export it as a library

  273. qy

    firstly because it's half baked, but secondly because i don't want to maintain a library

  274. qy

    i imagine that's the solution though, having transport-level libraries like libstrophe, that things can then build on and provide language-native ergonomic bindings to

  275. qy

    just as an exercise, assuming python-c FFI was no issue whatsoever, imagine conversations rewritten to be built over libstrophe

  276. qy

    that would not be a problem, coding-wise

  277. qy

    InputMice: right?

  278. qy

    er, sorry, java-c

  279. qy

    wurstsalat; ditto python/gajim, i guess

  280. Kev has left

  281. qy

    http://strophe.im/libstrophe/doc/0.12.0/ for reference

  282. inky has joined

  283. Laura has joined

  284. pulkomandy

    gloox has interface higher level than this, but has "extension points" where you can easily add your own stuff. I think the API is quite well designed. I wouldn't want to write a client on top of something very lowlevel like libstrophe and have to re-figure out all XEPs myself

  285. Apollo has left

  286. adx has left

  287. jubalh has joined

  288. qy

    _shrug_ worked for me

  289. pulkomandy

    I'm not implying everyone should agree with me, that's how I feel about it, that's all

  290. nik has left

  291. Mx2 has left

  292. amee2k has left

  293. Mx2 has joined

  294. inky has left

  295. marc0s has left

  296. marc0s has joined

  297. marc0s has left

  298. marc0s has joined

  299. selurvedu has left

  300. Kev has joined

  301. inky has joined

  302. marc0s has left

  303. marc0s has joined

  304. Mx2 has left

  305. Laura has left

  306. Laura has joined

  307. Laura has left

  308. Kev has left

  309. Stefan has joined

  310. Stefan has left

  311. Mx2 has joined

  312. nik has joined

  313. Matrix Traveler (bot) has left

  314. homebeach has left

  315. homebeach has joined

  316. Matrix Traveler (bot) has joined

  317. dezant has left

  318. amee2k has joined

  319. rom1dep has left

  320. Sam has left

  321. rom1dep has joined

  322. marc0s has left

  323. marc0s has joined

  324. Sam has joined

  325. dezant has joined

  326. Sam has left

  327. Kev has joined

  328. inky has left

  329. Sam has joined

  330. nik has left

  331. amee2k has left

  332. mirux has left

  333. mirux has joined

  334. inky has joined

  335. Kev has left

  336. Laura has joined

  337. spiral has left

  338. serge90 has left

  339. Laura has left

  340. Alastair Hogge has left

  341. Alastair Hogge has joined

  342. Laura has joined

  343. spiral has joined

  344. dezant has left

  345. serge90 has joined

  346. Sam has left

  347. debacle has joined

  348. Sam has joined

  349. Johnson has joined

  350. dezant has joined

  351. inky has left

  352. Johnson has left

  353. Johnson has joined

  354. Johnson has left

  355. Kev has joined

  356. nik has joined

  357. debacle has left

  358. debacle has joined

  359. Stefan has joined

  360. Stefan

    I have started to build a layer on top of libstrophe for XEPs implementations. Unfortunately, it's too much work for me. 🤷

  361. xnamed has left

  362. coleman has left

  363. Kev has left

  364. amee2k has joined

  365. inky has joined

  366. Mx2 has left

  367. Mx2 has joined

  368. adx has joined

  369. Kev has joined

  370. pasdesushi has left

  371. Kev has left

  372. coleman has joined

  373. pasdesushi has joined

  374. Sam has left

  375. Sam has joined

  376. Mx2 has left

  377. dezant has left

  378. dezant has joined

  379. nik has left

  380. Mx2 has joined

  381. PapaTutuWawa has joined

  382. eu has left

  383. eu has joined

  384. Kev has joined

  385. debacle has left

  386. debacle has joined

  387. Schimon has joined

  388. Kev has left

  389. dezant has left

  390. raghavgururajan has left

  391. xnamed has joined

  392. TheRealkarano has left

  393. Sam

    This is (more or less) the direction we took with Mellium, except that we also provide the higher level features. But if you don't like our implementation you can only use the low level stuff and write your own extras

  394. dezant has joined

  395. Alex has left

  396. lovetox has left

  397. Alex has joined

  398. atomicwatch has left

  399. Kev has joined

  400. atomicwatch has joined

  401. Alex has left

  402. Alex has joined

  403. lovetox has joined

  404. amee2k has left

  405. debacle has left

  406. amee2k has joined

  407. jgart has joined

  408. Kev has left

  409. mirux has left

  410. mirux has joined

  411. moparisthebest has left

  412. lovetox has left

  413. jgart has left

  414. emus has left

  415. lovetox has joined

  416. atomicwatch has left

  417. Kev has joined

  418. atomicwatch has joined

  419. Kev has left

  420. mirux has left

  421. Kev has joined

  422. Sam has left

  423. Sam has joined

  424. moparisthebest has joined

  425. Sam has left

  426. Kev has left

  427. Sam has joined

  428. Millesimus has left

  429. PapaTutuWawa has left

  430. Laura has left

  431. Laura has joined

  432. adx has left

  433. kikuchiyo has left

  434. kikuchiyo has joined

  435. xnamed has left

  436. debacle has joined

  437. Kev has joined

  438. Mx2 has left

  439. atomicwatch has left

  440. Kev has left

  441. adx has joined

  442. atomicwatch has joined

  443. msavoritias has left

  444. Mx2 has joined

  445. Kev has joined

  446. Sam has left

  447. Sam has joined

  448. selurvedu has joined

  449. Kev has left

  450. adx has left

  451. marc0s has left

  452. marc0s has joined

  453. Zash has left

  454. Mx2 has left