jdev - 2022-06-15

Conversations displays nested quotes down to the arbitrary depth of seven: https://github.com/iNPUTmice/Conversations/blob/467e34e2feb6a13c33ea24d9a1e9345689931a8c/src/main/java/eu/siacs/conversations/Config.java#L206

aren't limits like those mostly arbitrary? I mean, it's unlikely that someone did a survery and a histogram of messages to find a good cut of point

otoh, if I think of mailing list discussions, a max quoting depth of seven appears a little bit to low

[IPFS] Is there a plan to share files over IPFS?

https://jabber.de:5281/upload/4VjKUA1XG4Fqe39B/20220216_113257854_310d.jpg

For instance, this image file is hosted at jabber.de. Instead, it can be shared from user(s) over IPFS instead of an HTTP server. ✏

I think it __will__ be a definite feature that will qualify XMPP more than any of the centralized networks, even those that claim to provide "unlimited" storage, so called.

Schimon, I think it then makes it impossible to expire/delete stuff? And in practice there is not much difference to today because people will still access the files through a small number of HTTP gateways

Difference in what sense?

To the centralization/decentralization aspect

In reality it's still going to be served by jabber.de or an external IPFS host

So what is it meant to achieve?

> MattJ: > 2022-06-15 06:32 (GMT+03:00) > In reality it's still going to be served by jabber.de or an external IPFS host Or both

> MattJ: > 2022-06-15 06:33 (GMT+03:00) > So what is it meant to achieve? Sharing large files.

IPFS storage is unlimited?

I didn't check. As far as I __see__ it, I thinl so, IPFS storage is unlimited, just like BitTorrent

> MattJ: > 2022-06-15 06:30 (GMT+03:00) > Schimon, I think it then makes it impossible to expire/delete stuff? Yes, it will be impossible to delete, unless everyone have deleted the file or disconnected all IPFS clients from the file itself.

Essentially, IPFS is static BitTorrent. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

It's similar, but your data is still hosted somewhere. In reality if you upload a large file, you're going to have to store it yourself. IPFS doesn't magically provide unlimited storage.

So it offers no advantage for large files

Of course. It's stored on users' machines. Each sharer is a host, just like BitTorrent (except webseeds which is http) ✏

It offers an advantage if you want to publish something online and distribute it widely, publicly and ensure that content cannot be modified ever

This too

That's not usually the case for XMPP file transfers

I'm not saying it wouldn't be nice to have a XEP that says how to identify an IPFS file (e.g. as an alternate URL)

> MattJ: > 2022-06-15 06:38 (GMT+03:00) > So it offers no advantage for large files Say, server limits upliad to 100MB. Over 100MB, file is shared over IPFS

> Me: > 2022-06-15 06:41 (GMT+03:00) > Say, server limits upliad to 100MB. > Over 100MB, file is shared over IPFS

This person attempted to retract a previous message, but it's unsupported by your client.

This person attempted to retract a previous message, but it's unsupported by your client.

But that 100MB file will still be uploaded to the same server, and downloaded from the same server

99.9% of the time

Oops. Sorry for the mess. Shall I repost my last message?

I see all your messages, don't worry :)

> MattJ: > 2022-06-15 06:41 (GMT+03:00) > But that 100MB file will still be uploaded to the same server, and downloaded from the same server If user wants to share the 100MB file, it won't be possible to upload to server (because server will reject it), so user's XMPP client will default to IPFS, no? ✏

Using what IPFS server?

> MattJ: > 2022-06-15 06:40 (GMT+03:00) > That's not usually the case for XMPP file transfers We might have new use cases. An entire community, exclusively using an XMPP groupchat, and IPFS to share contects. I can see this japoen in Movim, or groupchat where there are a few participants that allow to post messages.

> MattJ: > 2022-06-15 06:44 (GMT+03:00) > Using what IPFS server? As far as I understand, every sharer is a server, no? Sorry, I didn't look into the technicalities. ✏

Okay, so you plan for e.g. mobile devices to participate in the IPFS network directly. That means if you share a 100MB file in a group with 100 people, you could end up sending 1GB data from your mobile device

Yes. I see how problematic it can get

It's possible it could be less, but very likely it won't be if every client requests it from your node

Sure

But it's much, when bandwidth is limited, and I/O rate of SD card is higher...

So, mobile clients will have to have a client-side mechanism for bandwidth-control

> MattJ: > 2022-06-15 06:40 (GMT+03:00) > I'm not saying it wouldn't be nice to have a XEP that says how to identify an IPFS file (e.g. as an alternate URL) It can be IPFS + HTTP. Similarly to BitTorrent + WebSeeds (HTTP)

Then you still have to find a HTTP server to host it in the first place :)

Yes, if we choose so. The main goal is to reduce load from HTTP servers. ✏

If you really want IPFS I can see XMPP servers proxying for clients maybe

But I'm not sure I see the point anyway

I feel like this is finding a solution before a problem. I don't think anyone is struggling with load on their HTTP servers right now. And I don't think many people are saying "I wish I couldn't delete my file uploads", and so on

> pep.: > 2022-06-15 06:53 (GMT+03:00) > But I'm not sure I see the point anyway Reduce load is the purpose of this

The main thing that would be nice is to get some privacy, so that the upload server doesn't have to see every downloader's IP address

Schimon, Reduce load of what?

But IPFS doesn't get that

MattJ, that can be done to a point with c2s server proxying right?

Of HTTP upload bandwidth

pep., yes, a simple authenticated HTTP proxy on the server (caching, potentially) would solve it

> MattJ: > 2022-06-15 06:54 (GMT+03:00) > The main thing that would be nice is to get some privacy, so that the upload server doesn't have to see every downloader's IP address This can be hapoen with IPFS, though peers can see IP, I guess

Yes, peer-to-peer networks by their nature expose your network address to your peers

> MattJ: > 2022-06-15 06:53 (GMT+03:00) > I feel like this is finding a solution before a problem. I don't think anyone is struggling with load on their HTTP servers right now. And I don't think many people are saying "I wish I couldn't delete my file uploads", and so on Matt, I want to open an XMPP groupchat that only admins can post and share contents of 2GB and above. I think IPFS uploads are a great solution for that

First you need to find a host (IPFS or not) which allows 2GB uploads

I'm the initial host

or if you're running IPFS on your own device, a good internet connection

There's no reason you can't do this already today, there are HTTP<->IPFS gateways, and you can just share a URL

and then serve from IPFS on your local machine

Or, I can re-share IPFS link (then again, in that case I can just send the link)

Ok, I'm beginning to sound silly. I'll take a break and think this through ✏

I think being able to specify multiple URLs for the same content in XMPP would be a nice feature

Ditto

That way you could share HTTP and IPFS, and clients that understand IPFS could use that

Of course. That too. I still do sense that incorporating IPFS will cause higher interest in forming new communities inside XMPP.

Doesn't SIMS allow multiple references?

Maybe I misremember.

SIMS is an XEP?

This about summarizes my feelings about the distributed web hype:

4 years ago, someone posted their blog to HN, about how their blog was hosted on IPFS: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18027958

It's no longer loading, tested via multiple IPFS gateways

But guess what? The wayback machine has it covered: https://web.archive.org/web/20180919220141/https://ipfs.io/ipns/Qme48wyZ7LaF9gC5693DZyJBtehgaFhaKycESroemD5fNX/post/putting_this_blog_on_ipfs/

Haha, wayback usinh an http<->ipfs proxy

> MattJ: > 2022-06-15 07:22 (GMT+03:00) > It's no longer loading, tested via multiple IPFS gateways Perhaps if he was just as motivated you are (xmpp community members), it would still hold.

So from this small random sample, if you want some data to be persisted for years: it's better to submit it to wayback than host it on IPFS

MattJ: you Kev pep. Link etc. It looks like you're inside XMPP for life ;)

I'm not sure what this has to do with XMPP :)

Just kidding a little to raise up the fact that you are consistent, in presence

> MattJ: > 2022-06-15 07:25 (GMT+03:00) > So from this small random sample, if you want some data to be persisted for years: it's better to submit it to wayback than host it on IPFS I still think IPFS a worthy addition

I've over 600 incomplete torrents. Some last, some not.

Something something degrowth :x