jdev - 2022-06-15


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  165. Millesimus Conversations displays nested quotes down to the arbitrary depth of seven: https://github.com/iNPUTmice/Conversations/blob/467e34e2feb6a13c33ea24d9a1e9345689931a8c/src/main/java/eu/siacs/conversations/Config.java#L206
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  191. flow aren't limits like those mostly arbitrary? I mean, it's unlikely that someone did a survery and a histogram of messages to find a good cut of point
  192. flow otoh, if I think of mailing list discussions, a max quoting depth of seven appears a little bit to low
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  198. Schimon [IPFS] Is there a plan to share files over IPFS?
  199. Schimon https://jabber.de:5281/upload/4VjKUA1XG4Fqe39B/20220216_113257854_310d.jpg
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  201. Schimon For instance, this image file is hosted at jabber.de. It can be shared from user(s) over IPFS instead of an HTTP server.
  202. Schimon For instance, this image file is hosted at jabber.de. Instead, it can be shared from user(s) over IPFS instead of an HTTP server.
  203. Schimon I think it __will__ be a definite feature that will qualify XMPP more than any of the centralized networks, even those that claim to provide "unlimited" storage, so called.
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  207. MattJ Schimon, I think it then makes it impossible to expire/delete stuff? And in practice there is not much difference to today because people will still access the files through a small number of HTTP gateways
  208. Schimon Difference in what sense?
  209. MattJ To the centralization/decentralization aspect
  210. MattJ In reality it's still going to be served by jabber.de or an external IPFS host
  211. MattJ So what is it meant to achieve?
  212. Schimon > MattJ: > 2022-06-15 06:32 (GMT+03:00) > In reality it's still going to be served by jabber.de or an external IPFS host Or both
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  214. Schimon > MattJ: > 2022-06-15 06:33 (GMT+03:00) > So what is it meant to achieve? Sharing large files.
  215. MattJ IPFS storage is unlimited?
  216. Schimon I didn't check. As far as I __see__ it, I thinl so, IPFS storage is unlimited, just like BitTorrent
  217. Schimon > MattJ: > 2022-06-15 06:30 (GMT+03:00) > Schimon, I think it then makes it impossible to expire/delete stuff? Yes, it will be impossible to delete, unless everyone have deleted the file or disconnected all IPFS clients from the file itself.
  218. Schimon Essentially, IPFS is static BitTorrent. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
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  220. MattJ It's similar, but your data is still hosted somewhere. In reality if you upload a large file, you're going to have to store it yourself. IPFS doesn't magically provide unlimited storage.
  221. Schimon Of course
  222. MattJ So it offers no advantage for large files
  223. Schimon Of course. It's stored on users' machines. Each sharer is a host, just like BitTorrent (except webseeds which is http)
  224. MattJ It offers an advantage if you want to publish something online and distribute it widely, publicly and ensure that content cannot be modified ever
  225. Schimon This too
  226. MattJ That's not usually the case for XMPP file transfers
  227. MattJ I'm not saying it wouldn't be nice to have a XEP that says how to identify an IPFS file (e.g. as an alternate URL)
  228. Schimon > MattJ: > 2022-06-15 06:38 (GMT+03:00) > So it offers no advantage for large files Say, server limits upliad to 100MB. Over 100MB, file is shared over IPFS
  229. Schimon > Me: > 2022-06-15 06:41 (GMT+03:00) > Say, server limits upliad to 100MB. > Over 100MB, file is shared over IPFS
  230. Schimon This person attempted to retract a previous message, but it's unsupported by your client.
  231. Schimon This person attempted to retract a previous message, but it's unsupported by your client.
  232. MattJ But that 100MB file will still be uploaded to the same server, and downloaded from the same server
  233. MattJ 99.9% of the time
  234. Schimon Oops. Sorry for the mess. Shall I repost my last message?
  235. MattJ I see all your messages, don't worry :)
  236. Schimon > MattJ: > 2022-06-15 06:41 (GMT+03:00) > But that 100MB file will still be uploaded to the same server, and downloaded from the same server If user wants to share the 100MB file, it won't be possible to upload to server, so user's XMPP client will default to IPFS, no?
  237. Schimon > MattJ: > 2022-06-15 06:41 (GMT+03:00) > But that 100MB file will still be uploaded to the same server, and downloaded from the same server If user wants to share the 100MB file, it won't be possible to upload to server (because server will reject it), so user's XMPP client will default to IPFS, no?
  238. MattJ Using what IPFS server?
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  241. Schimon > MattJ: > 2022-06-15 06:40 (GMT+03:00) > That's not usually the case for XMPP file transfers We might have new use cases. An entire community, exclusively using an XMPP groupchat, and IPFS to share contects. I can see this japoen in Movim, or groupchat where there are a few participants that allow to post messages.
  242. Schimon > MattJ: > 2022-06-15 06:44 (GMT+03:00) > Using what IPFS server? As far as I understand, every sharer is a server, no?
  243. Schimon > MattJ: > 2022-06-15 06:44 (GMT+03:00) > Using what IPFS server? As far as I understand, every sharer is a server, no? Sorry, I didn't look into the technicalities.
  244. MattJ Okay, so you plan for e.g. mobile devices to participate in the IPFS network directly. That means if you share a 100MB file in a group with 100 people, you could end up sending 1GB data from your mobile device
  245. Schimon Yes. I see how problematic it can get
  246. MattJ It's possible it could be less, but very likely it won't be if every client requests it from your node
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  248. Schimon Sure
  249. Schimon But it's much, when bandwidth is limited, and I/O rate of SD card is higher...
  250. Schimon So, mobile clients will have to have a client-side mechanism for bandwidth-control
  251. Schimon > MattJ: > 2022-06-15 06:40 (GMT+03:00) > I'm not saying it wouldn't be nice to have a XEP that says how to identify an IPFS file (e.g. as an alternate URL) It can be IPFS + HTTP. Similarly to BitTorrent + WebSeeds (HTTP)
  252. MattJ Then you still have to find a HTTP server to host it in the first place :)
  253. Schimon Yes, if we choose so. The goal is to reduce load from HTTP servers.
  254. Schimon Yes, if we choose so. The main goal is to reduce load from HTTP servers.
  255. pep. If you really want IPFS I can see XMPP servers proxying for clients maybe
  256. pep. But I'm not sure I see the point anyway
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  258. MattJ I feel like this is finding a solution before a problem. I don't think anyone is struggling with load on their HTTP servers right now. And I don't think many people are saying "I wish I couldn't delete my file uploads", and so on
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  261. Schimon > pep.: > 2022-06-15 06:53 (GMT+03:00) > But I'm not sure I see the point anyway Reduce load is the purpose of this
  262. MattJ The main thing that would be nice is to get some privacy, so that the upload server doesn't have to see every downloader's IP address
  263. pep. Schimon, Reduce load of what?
  264. MattJ But IPFS doesn't get that
  265. pep. MattJ, that can be done to a point with c2s server proxying right?
  266. Schimon Of HTTP upload bandwidth
  267. MattJ pep., yes, a simple authenticated HTTP proxy on the server (caching, potentially) would solve it
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  269. Schimon > MattJ: > 2022-06-15 06:54 (GMT+03:00) > The main thing that would be nice is to get some privacy, so that the upload server doesn't have to see every downloader's IP address This can be hapoen with IPFS, though peers can see IP, I guess
  270. MattJ Yes, peer-to-peer networks by their nature expose your network address to your peers
  271. Schimon > MattJ: > 2022-06-15 06:53 (GMT+03:00) > I feel like this is finding a solution before a problem. I don't think anyone is struggling with load on their HTTP servers right now. And I don't think many people are saying "I wish I couldn't delete my file uploads", and so on Matt, I want to open an XMPP groupchat that only admins can post and share contents of 2GB and above. I think IPFS uploads are a great solution for that
  272. MattJ First you need to find a host (IPFS or not) which allows 2GB uploads
  273. Schimon I'm the initial host
  274. MattJ or if you're running IPFS on your own device, a good internet connection
  275. MattJ There's no reason you can't do this already today, there are HTTP<->IPFS gateways, and you can just share a URL
  276. MattJ and then serve from IPFS on your local machine
  277. Schimon Or, I can re-share IPFS link (then again, in that case I can just send the link)
  278. Schimon Ok, I'm beginning to sound silly. I'lm take a break and think this through
  279. Schimon Ok, I'm beginning to sound silly. I'll take a break and think this through
  280. MattJ I think being able to specify multiple URLs for the same content in XMPP would be a nice feature
  281. Schimon Ditto
  282. MattJ That way you could share HTTP and IPFS, and clients that understand IPFS could use that
  283. Schimon Of course. That too. I still do sense that incorporating IPFS will cause higher interest in forming new communities inside XMPP.
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  285. Kev Doesn't SIMS allow multiple references?
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  287. Kev Maybe I misremember.
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  291. Schimon SIMS is an XEP?
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  293. MattJ This about summarizes my feelings about the distributed web hype:
  294. MattJ 4 years ago, someone posted their blog to HN, about how their blog was hosted on IPFS: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18027958
  295. MattJ It's no longer loading, tested via multiple IPFS gateways
  296. MattJ But guess what? The wayback machine has it covered: https://web.archive.org/web/20180919220141/https://ipfs.io/ipns/Qme48wyZ7LaF9gC5693DZyJBtehgaFhaKycESroemD5fNX/post/putting_this_blog_on_ipfs/
  297. Schimon Haha, wayback usinh an http<->ipfs proxy
  298. Schimon > MattJ: > 2022-06-15 07:22 (GMT+03:00) > It's no longer loading, tested via multiple IPFS gateways Perhaps if he was just as motivated you are (xmpp community members), it would still hold.
  299. MattJ So from this small random sample, if you want some data to be persisted for years: it's better to submit it to wayback than host it on IPFS
  300. Schimon MattJ: you Kev pep. Link etc. It looks like you're inside XMPP for life ;)
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  302. MattJ I'm not sure what this has to do with XMPP :)
  303. Schimon Just kidding a little to raise up the fact that you are consistent, in presence
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  305. Schimon > MattJ: > 2022-06-15 07:25 (GMT+03:00) > So from this small random sample, if you want some data to be persisted for years: it's better to submit it to wayback than host it on IPFS I still think IPFS a worthy addition
  306. Schimon I've over 600 incomplete torrents. Some last, some not.
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  308. pep. Something something degrowth :x
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