jdev - 2022-07-17

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  372. Sam I decided to take another stab at implementing multi-item results on XEP-0004: Data Forms, but as usual I'm still confused. The spec makes it look like items and repoted can exist alongside field, title, etc. but what does it even mean to have a normal form that also contains reported/items? Is this correct that a form can have both normal fields and the multi-item stuff?
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  374. Zash The spec does not forbid it, so it is allowed. Glob help us all.
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  376. Sam The schema seems to suggest it's allowed (though as usual, I don't know XML schema and may be mis-reading something), but the meaning of the actual text seems very unclear to me
  377. Sam I guess a better question is "is anyone else doing or allowing this?"
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  381. Sam aioxmpp seems to disallow fields being mixed in with items, but it looks like it would allow title/instructions as far as I can see
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  383. Zash Someone asked about this recently, either here or xsf@, trying to find it.
  384. Sam Might have been me; I think I tried to do this a couple of months ago but I can't remember what was said
  385. Sam nbxmpp (Gajim) appears to allow title and instructions but disallow fields too; I guess I'll just do this since that's what others are doing (though if anyone has an example of doing something else, I'd love to know)
  386. Sam Although this seems entirely unsupported by the text or schema.
  387. Zash Aha, found https://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/2022-06-07?p=h#2022-06-07-50bc9a07d99ec16a
  388. Sam oh nice, thanks
  389. Sam drat; singpolyma makes a good argument for why both make sense, now I'm not sure what to do.
  390. Zash https://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/2022-06-08?p=h#2022-06-08-7b362a17b6eba8a8 hints at prior art of allowing both (or not disallowing)
  391. Zash I note that Prosody's util.dataforms doesn't do <reported> at all
  392. Zash There's a user search module doing it, but it's constructing the XML itself IIRC
  393. lovetox Sam, i never came across a use case where this is needed
  394. lovetox and i dont implement stuff that "maybe, in theory someone at someday could need"
  395. lovetox especially if it is not described as a clear use case for the xep
  396. lovetox and only is possible because nothing forbids it
  397. Sam singpolymas example is a pretty concrete one though (in jmp.chat they want to show the account balance followed by a table of recent transactions)
  398. Sam Sounds like there are already some incompatibilities due to the ambiguity in the spec, so maybe I should just not implement it at all.
  399. lovetox you know you cannot have only one dataform in a stanza
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  401. Sam That normally means "this form or this other fallback form" in most specs though, not "display both these forms"
  402. Sam (to be clear, it sounded like you were saying "you must have multiple forms", but obviously that's not right, so I'm assuming you meant "it's possible to have multiple forms"?)
  403. lovetox yes its possible, depends on where you use that
  404. Sam Sure, so now if I include a normal form and a multi-item form we have an ambiguity about what that means that may depend on context, so I dunno if that approach is better
  405. lovetox are we talking about adhoc results?
  406. Sam Could be anything, this is just a generic library for building forms to be embedded in other things (ad-hoc is one of the things that already uses it)
  407. lovetox funny, the adhoc spec misses the FORM_TYPE in all its dataforms
  408. lovetox and i never heard of "fallback" forms
  409. lovetox either you support dataforms or not
  410. lovetox the adhoc spec does not say anything about multiple forms
  411. Sam I'd have to go look, but I'm pretty sure several specs define having multiple forms in one payload as "if you don't support something in the first form, use the second"
  412. Sam or "show the title and let the user choose between these two forms" or something along thos elines
  413. lovetox i think you misremember, you probably mean IBR
  414. lovetox which has a Dataform, and if you dont support a dataform, here are custom xep defined fileds as fallback
  415. Sam Could be, but either way it sounds like the meaning of multiple forms is also not well defined or is very context dependent, which still makes it hard to implement data forms cleanly
  416. lovetox there is no fallback for "i implemented only half of the dataform xep"
  417. lovetox but this would not have anything to do with your lib or?
  418. lovetox you just parse a dataform
  419. lovetox if its 2, then you parse 2
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  421. Zash You don't strictly need FORM_TYPE to render a random form, no?
  422. lovetox its client business if he displays 2 or 1
  423. lovetox Zash, the problem xmpp should be extensible
  424. lovetox if the form does not define that its indeed the form from the xep
  425. lovetox i cannot filter the forms for the correct formtype
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  427. lovetox means, if someone attaches a second form, i dont know which one to choose
  428. lovetox its like if you add a new custom node, without namespace
  429. lovetox yes its possible , but not really good design
  430. lovetox to the use case with the account balance, if someone adds a issue in Gajim requesting that i display multiple forms below each other on adhoc results
  431. lovetox i would implement that
  432. lovetox thats like 5 minutes of work
  433. Sam Even if we assume this is all a thing we could do that would work for every spec, it's still unclear to me whether multi-item forms should include title/instructions. It makes sense that they would, I just think we need some clarity here
  434. lovetox im didnt read the spec for that, but it seems like a nobrainer
  435. lovetox like here have a form, but i dont tell you what it is about
  436. lovetox does not seems like a good solution
  437. lovetox you could argue, its probably in the context of how you requested this clear
  438. Sam I don't disagree, but if we say "no fields, but can have instructions" we're just inventing stuff that the spec definitely doesn't say, so that seems like it will cause incompatibilities and problems.
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  440. lovetox yes this should be clarified
  441. lovetox reading the XEP now though nothing idicates that this is not to be expected
  442. lovetox title and instructions are described
  443. lovetox and later there is one paragraph, about how a table can be displayed in a form
  444. Sam Right, but if title and instructions are allowed then why wouldn't fields be?
  445. lovetox yes, i agree, its not forbidden
  446. Sam But multiple libraries seem to forbid it, so I'm not sure what to do to avoid bad incompatibilities.
  447. lovetox it would though then really messy in my opinion
  448. lovetox like then the order really matters
  449. lovetox like what if reported comes in the middle of the fields etc
  450. lovetox like its clear that nobody had this use case in mind
  451. Sam Yah
  452. lovetox any sane dev would wrap this in some parent nodes
  453. lovetox and separate the forms
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  456. Sam I'm not sure that's true
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  458. Sam I suppose I need to know what clients are doing in real life. Eg. if most clients would just ignore the second form, now half the data you returned isn't being displayed. Doesn't seem like a good idea in that case.
  459. lovetox there is no way clients support this one way or another
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  461. lovetox its just not a use case until now maybe
  462. lovetox and now we can decide which way to go
  463. Sam yah, maybe it's impossible to ensure good compatibility so we should just pick something, fix the XEP (or write a new XEP that clarifies it) and move on
  464. lovetox or do nothing, having one use case in decades of usage
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  466. lovetox its just not supported in xmpp ..
  467. Sam Maybe, but that still leaves me with "I have to implement this, different clients implement it in different ways and I'm not sure which one I should do"
  468. lovetox i doubt this, you have one example where a lib parses both, reported and normal fields into one object?
  469. Sam Apparently Smack allows mixing them, but nbxmpp does not. Which is right? The current state of the world is fine only until some dev sends a mixed form from smack to nbxmpp and now they can't figure out why their thing is broken.
  470. lovetox smacks allows to parse it mixed?
  471. lovetox or smacks allows to create mixed forms?
  472. Sam Apparently; that's what someone said earlier
  473. Sam Both, I think? Let me try to figure it out, one moment
  474. lovetox because thats two very different things
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  476. Sam Actually, I don't see multi-item forms in Smack at all, so maybe they were wrong
  477. Sam oh wait, there it is, looking again
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  479. Sam Yah, looks like it allows both. It parses using the same dataform builder that you'd use to create your own, and it allows adding fields and items
  480. lovetox and then how does it make it accessable by the client?
  481. Sam You can call a method to get fields, you can call another method to get items
  482. lovetox .......
  483. lovetox damn it
  484. lovetox :D
  485. Sam Looks like it loses ordering info between the two; they're kept ordered, but separate
  486. lovetox yeah i guess then you have to decide :)
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  489. lovetox of course its not easily doable, you would need to put extra thought into that
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  491. lovetox but i guess its always, fields first
  492. lovetox items later
  493. lovetox atleast i cant think of a reason why i would display a Table first in GUI, and afterwards some info
  494. lovetox either way its probably not critical here
  495. Sam If I were to support both I think from my APIs perspective I would treat items as if they were just another field that takes multiple values (and the value is other fields).
  496. Sam Items are displayed like columns. If there's a field then more items, then they're just two separate tables with the same header.
  497. lovetox if i would implement that, i would make something like dataform.add_table()
  498. lovetox table.add_row()
  499. Sam yah, something like that
  500. Sam I'll write up all the possibilities from this discussion and send it to standards@. Maybe then we can come to a consensus and I can write an XEP clarifying this, however it comes out.
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  502. lovetox i mean if i think about it, and we say, ok that was intended, dataforms support putting both in, its not terrible hard to update the dataform implementations
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  510. Sam Email describing some of this sent to standards@, please mention anything I've left out or if you think I've mischaracterized anything.
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