jdev - 2022-07-25


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  341. lovetox regarding 0045
  342. lovetox > A MUC service MUST include the MUC extensions even if the client did not send an empty <x/> element qualified by the 'http://jabber.org/protocol/muc' namespace on entering the room; naturally, a client MUST ignore such information if it does not understand it (in accordance with RFC 6120).
  343. lovetox this is from 17.3, rule 10.
  344. lovetox what are MUC extensions in that context?
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  351. Ge0rG lovetox: that reads like GC1.0 join, which we luckily killed with fire a few years ago
  352. lovetox i wanted to know what the words MUC Extensions mean in the context of a presence
  353. lovetox it MUST include it
  354. lovetox what is a MUC Extension
  355. Ge0rG The extension is probably the <x xmlns='http://jabber.org/protocol/muc#user'> payload
  356. lovetox so do i read this correctly, a service MUST add a x element with a MUC related namespace, in EVERY Presence it sends
  357. Ge0rG I think this is only related to the immediate response to a join presence
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  359. lovetox ok so also in an error presence as a response to a join?
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  364. Ge0rG The previous wording was: > A MUC service MUST send extended presence to a client even if the client did not send an empty <x/> ele
  365. Ge0rG Changed in 2011
  366. Ge0rG 0045 is not the best worded of XEPs, so maybe it makes sense to remove this point
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  385. lovetox how would that help ..
  386. lovetox im trying to figure out if a MUC service must include <x xmlns='somemucnamespace#> in presences
  387. Ge0rG lovetox: I don't see how it could make any sense, so removing it would make the XEP clearer?
  388. Ge0rG lovetox: in which presences?
  389. lovetox in all
  390. Ge0rG well, occupant presences are supposed to have the <x> user element, which other presences are there?
  391. lovetox error presence in response to a join, for example, banned, or password needed etc etc
  392. Ge0rG how would an error presence with that <x> element look?
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  395. Ge0rG is it legitimate for a <presence> to contain both the <x> and an error? The examples imply such a thing
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  400. lovetox it is legitimate to send the content of the presence back as error
  401. lovetox obviously if i join, i send <x> with it
  402. lovetox but some impl dont do this
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  404. lovetox so the question is, if the xep intends that they should, if not mirror the initial presence, at least include the <x>
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  406. lovetox its weird to me from a spec point, that all presences include <x>, but not error presences
  407. Ge0rG lovetox: original 0045 allowed joining a room with a presence that doesn't have <x>
  408. Ge0rG groupchat 1.0, but we've removed that because you can't see if it's a presence update or a join from a desync client
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  410. lovetox from a development view, its really painful how often in xmpp we have to guess, or cache somewhere some data, to even determine what a stanza is about
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  417. qy Do you think that could have been avoided with foreknowledge, or is it a direct consequence of flexibility?
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  419. Ge0rG it's a consequence of bad protocol design, and by bad design I mean twenty years of moving forward the state of the art ;)
  420. Ge0rG Carbons and MAM are pretty bad designs that only result from avoiding breaking changes
  421. qy So yeah, could have been avoided with some precognition
  422. qy Shame
  423. Ge0rG qy: computers and IM were very different twenty years ago
  424. qy Ofc
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  426. qy Im not lamenting it, i dont mind much, was just wondering why
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  428. Ge0rG XEP-0045 was an attempt to make IRC channels better
  429. lovetox its just not consitently a first class citizen
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  432. lovetox there is type=groupchat, which is good, its clear what we deal with here
  433. lovetox but yeah then there are messages which are not type=groupchat, but can still be from a groupchat
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  435. lovetox presences with <x mucnamespace>
  436. lovetox but yeah also presences without it
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  438. Ge0rG lovetox: error presence is always a response to a presence you sent
  439. lovetox if i would design a protocol, single chat and groupchat would be separated pretty hard in ALL aspects
  440. lovetox Ge0rG, yes its stuff like this "yeah its a repsonse so the client probably can figure out itself whats this about"
  441. Maranda > <lovetox> presences with <x mucnamespace> or private messages with are of type chat
  442. Maranda or private messages which are of type chat
  443. lovetox thats for me in practice, it generates much development overhead
  444. lovetox yeah thats my favorite, private dm type=chat
  445. Maranda In theory that should be fixed with ... MIX where everything is type "groupchat" ... maybe ... sorta, If I did glance at 0369 correctly.
  446. Maranda at least the message payloads
  447. qy I get the impression MIX is in the realm of vaporware atm
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  449. Maranda More than vaporware, bloatware
  450. Maranda it was supposed to simplify stuff but then someone decided it was good to add PubSub to it which extremely complicated stuff instead.
  451. Maranda As usual in the best of XMPP traditions.
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  486. emus MattJ: can we place the new images in the wiki?
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  492. Zash > but then someone decided it was good to add PubSub to it which extremely complicated stuff instead. Nah, PubSub was there from the beginning. MIX is "what if we used PubSub" taken as far as it goes, from the very first whiteboard drawings.
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  494. Zash Source: I was there, 3000 years ago, when the courage of... I mean when the early design was drawn up at a Summit
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  503. Sam What do people do if they unmarshal a bit-of-binary data element and the CID doesn't match the actual hash of the data? I guess when receiving it I can just return an error, but sending it is weird (I either let the user specify the CID in which case it might not match, or I don't but then the XML marshaler doesn't know what hash to use and I don't have a good way to tell it what hash to use
  504. Sam )
  505. Sam Sorry, very vague question. I suppose it should have been two different things: if the data doesn't match when receiving do you still use it (and cache it under and opaque string tied to that specific user instead of globally by hash) or do you discard it?
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  507. Sam And "if I have struct{ Data []byte, MaxAge int }" or similar that marshals to a data element, how do you ensure that the output SID is correct?
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  509. Link Mauve Sam, you take its SHA-1.
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  516. Sam Link Mauve: I don't understand how that relates to the question
  517. Sam I'd rephrase, but I can't tell what the ambiguity or confusion is
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  519. Link Mauve Sam, that was an answer to your last message only, if you have a Data []byte, you take its SHA-1, prepend cid: and append @bob.xmpp.org and you got the SID.
  520. Zash We have a few things where you know some kind of hash before you fetch the full thing. Caps, avatars, BOB e.g. Do any of those XEPs say anything about what to do in this case?
  521. Link Mauve Err, I confused SID and CID, sorry.
  522. Zash Probably consider it a failure
  523. Link Mauve When receiving invalid stuff I tend to reject it and propagate the error to the user so they can tell their contact to fix their thing.
  524. Link Mauve For sending, you should aim at not sending anything invalid ever.
  525. Sam Link Mauve: you're saying "only support sha1?"
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  527. Sam In that second question my confusion is that I have no good way to decide what hash to use if multiple are supported
  528. Link Mauve Sam, yes, bob only supports SHA-1 IIRC.
  529. Link Mauve It doesn’t do XEP-0300’s hash agility.
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  534. Link Mauve Same as avatars, same as 0115.
  535. Sam I don't think that's true
  536. Sam It mentions algo+hash, and I don't see anything that says "algo always == sha1"
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  538. Link Mauve Wanna bet how many clients will support anything but SHA-1, given it’s the only algo used in the examples? ^^'
  539. Sam Maybe I just shouldn't support BoB at all then and work on some new way to do this sort of thing; not having any sort of ability to upgrade seems like a pretty serious flaw
  540. Sam We do have a problem in general where nothing that uses hashes tells you where to get the canonical name of them and half these specs don't make it clear if you can actually use multiple hashes or not, I don't think it's just this one
  541. Maranda > <Zash> Source: I was there, 3000 years ago, when the courage of... I mean when the early design was drawn up at a Summit 🧙‍♂️ that explains the beard
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  544. Link Mauve Sam, some specs have been updated for that ability, like 0115 → 0390.
  545. Link Mauve Actually you seem to be right about hash agility in 0231, it seems to be properly supported, aside from the text form of the algorithm not being spelled out.
  546. Sam Oh great, this uses "sha1" and that uses "sha-1", I just realized that my general hash/names stuff is probably wrong for some specs
  547. Link Mauve It uses "sha1" as the only example, I could guess sha256 and sha512, but beyond that would it be sha3-256? blake2b-512? With underscores? Undefined here.
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  549. Sam IIRC the IANA hash database hasn't been updated since sha1 came out too (or something, I don't remember exactly when, just that it's only old hashes)
  550. Sam oh, no, it's got sha2 stuff at least. Still, not a lot here: https://www.iana.org/assignments/hash-function-text-names/hash-function-text-names.xhtml
  551. Zash and like https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0300.html it's different from the 'sha1' used in BoB
  552. Sam Anyways, without re-inventing the world I'm now even more stumped about how to implement this properly and my original two questions.
  553. Sam Maybe the answer to the first question is to ignore it; caching will be up to the user anyways so I can just hand them the CID and provide a function to verify it against some data to save them a few steps.
  554. Zash Time to snort up some Second Syndrome and write BoB 2!
  555. Sam Honestly, I can't tell if BoB is actually useful or not but if it is we should probably make it at least sort of consistent and less ambiguous
  556. Zash https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc6920.html mapped to XMPP mayhaps?
  557. Sam huh, TIL they have multiple specs for URLs containing hashes.
  558. Zash Just like us!
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  560. Sam That registry seems more complete at least
  561. Zash A-B all the specs
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  563. moparisthebest maybe we should start doing something like https://quicwg.org/quic-v2/draft-ietf-quic-v2.html to combat people supporting only what's in the examples
  564. Sam huh, that's an interesting idea, although I kind of can't imagine it would accomplish anything
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  575. Sam oh wait, this named information registry doesn't have sha1 in it… so really both these iana registries are pretty useless.
  576. Sam I guess sha3 isn't really necessary yet, we could go with the one that has sha2 and sha1 names and try to get it updated later if necessary
  577. Sam I wonder if I should even parse this format. CID URls can be anything, and it is a "SHOULD" that they follow this particular format. Maybe I should just treat this as an opaque string.
  578. Zash That's one approach
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  605. Sam Suggested fix: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/1193
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  618. Link Mauve I’d recommend against adding sha-1 as supported though.
  619. Link Mauve Current version says sha1, let’s keep it at it and not add newer unsupported names for the same thing.
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  621. Sam That's for forward compatibility, but yah, I could go either way.
  622. Sam Note that it's only supported when reading, not writing so in theory it never gets used.
  623. Sam Also went ahead and submitted a suggestion in response to the form discussion the other day. https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/1194\
  624. Sam I don't think there was any consensus in the discussion, but it sounded like this was the original intent and it's easy for users who want to mix and match to create a new field type later.
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  626. Link Mauve Sam, don’t assume someone won’t mess it up, and then every implementation would be forced to add compatibility just for it.
  627. Link Mauve If it’s downright forbidden, then nothing has to change.
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  629. moparisthebest if algo.toLower().startsWith("sha") && algo.endsWith("1") { SHA1 } what could possibly go wrong? :P
  630. Sam I'm not sure what you mean by that; that's part of the point, if they mess it up we can still read either
  631. Sam The obvious mistake people will make is read "textual names registry" and then just do that and not notice that "sha1" isn't right, so this lets you read both.
  632. moparisthebest the legends say this is why microsoft had to skip windows 9
  633. Sam But I really don't care either way, I just don't see it causing problems
  634. qy moparisthebest: ShaOne
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  638. Sam Anyways, fixed
  639. thomaslewis has left
  640. Link Mauve LGTM!
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