jdev - 2022-09-01

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  173. lovetox is there ever a reason a groupchat sends me a type "chat" message from its bare jid?
  174. pep. It wants to talk to you!
  175. pep. captcha or stuff like that? :/
  176. lovetox but this would not be type "chat"
  177. pep. Why not
  178. pep. Does it have to happen in the room (even if not broadcasted to the others)
  179. lovetox a message not sent in a room is not automatically type chat
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  182. lovetox there is also type "normal" which is commonly used for everything by a groupchat which is not a broadcasted message
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  188. lovetox the rfc intends type=chat for human one to one chat sessions
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  191. pep. Does the RFC define human? (/s)
  192. lovetox so i go ahead and assume sending a type=chat message which didnt originate from a human interaction is a violation or at least very bad style
  193. pep. Normal will render differently on some apps though no?
  194. pep. Wasn't gajim actually that had a different UI for them?
  195. pep. Wasn't it gajim actually that had a different UI for them?
  196. lovetox in ancient times
  197. lovetox currently it does not differentiate between them
  198. pep. Ok
  199. lovetox one of the biggest problems in XMPP i try to deal with since years is the question when i receive something: What is this JID?
  200. lovetox is it a groupchat, a account, a pm, a gateway
  201. pep. "disco it"?
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  204. Ge0rG yeah, keep a FIFO queue of disco-unknown stanzas per JID that will be processed once the disco has been responded to. Also good luck with timeouts.
  205. pep. I get that it's not exactly optimal to have to wait a network round-trip to choose the UI
  206. pep. But it'll be the most accurate answer you'll be able to get I guess
  207. pep. If you can't already deduce from the URI (if it's not just a JID)
  208. Ge0rG With MUCs, the naive hope is that you won't receive traffic from a JID you didn't ask before.
  209. Ge0rG Except with the super-weird corner case of MUC-PMs
  210. pep. "corner case" :P
  211. Ge0rG Which is why, a few years ago, I insistet on everbody adding <x muc/> elements into each passed PM
  212. Ge0rG pep.: you'll only get unsolicited MUC-PMs as carbons from your own server, which should know better
  213. Ge0rG > - A private <message/> from a local user to a MUC participant (sent to a full JID) SHOULD be carbon-copied This is a bummer, of course
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  218. MattJ lovetox, did you receive such a stanza, or you just want assurance it would never happen?
  219. MattJ I'd agree that it seems like something that shouldn't happen
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  221. Ge0rG type=chat from a MUC bare JID? I'm pretty sure there are captcha solutions doing that, maybe also room mode changes on irc bridges
  222. Ge0rG oh no, mode changes from biboumi are type=groupchat from=bare
  223. MattJ type=groupchat from=bare is something clients should support
  224. MattJ ("because I said so")
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  226. MattJ It used to be commonly supported in clients, before XEP-0045. We have better ways to convey the information it was previously used for, but it's still handy for announcements and things.
  227. lovetox no i did not receive something like that
  228. lovetox i just want to determine as early as possible that im not dealing with a groupchat
  229. lovetox but seems this is doomed to fail
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  232. lovetox Ge0rG, your proposal seems not thought trough
  233. lovetox seems to invite high complexity not worth it
  234. lovetox i would be suprised if anyone implemented such a thing in reality
  235. Ge0rG lovetox: surprise!
  236. pep. Actually many do
  237. lovetox yeah please name the project
  238. lovetox i want to look into it
  239. pep. It's kinda the only way to distinguish certain payloads
  240. pep. poezio for one
  241. lovetox just to be sure pep. before i go look
  242. Ge0rG lovetox: https://lab.louiz.org/poezio/poezio/-/blob/main/poezio/core/handlers.py#L162-174
  243. lovetox im not talking about "disco a jid"
  244. lovetox im talking about not processing stanzas, until a disco result is received
  245. Ge0rG lovetox: yes, poezio
  246. pep. ah
  247. Ge0rG it's waiting for the disco to resolve before processing
  248. pep. Ah yes
  249. Ge0rG I think it will even queue all messages from that JID on the has_identity semaphore.
  250. pep. (Ge0rG knows better..)
  251. Ge0rG well, that was what one of the developers claimed
  252. Ge0rG lovetox: also regardless of what other implementations do, it's the only way to correctly handle the situation.
  253. lovetox hm for this particular case, no
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  255. lovetox the correct way to handle this is, if its not marked as muc pm, drop the message
  256. Ge0rG the particular use case is: you receive a message from a JID you don't know
  257. Ge0rG lovetox: "drop the message" is almost never the correct solution
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  262. lovetox seems poezio does this only for carbons
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  264. lovetox sooo ... what does it do when it receives a muc pm over mam?
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  267. pep. https://lab.louiz.org/poezio/poezio/-/blob/main/poezio/core/handlers.py#L264-275
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  269. pep. I'd assume it takes this path
  270. pep. MAM messages should be replayed as normal messages I think, with some tweaks
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  272. lovetox in your link i dont see a disco
  273. pep. I don't know this codepath much. I guess there should be one, maybe it's just that we encounter this issue less often and we haven't added it yet?
  274. pep. If you want you can try to craft a payload and send to my jid I'll tell you what we do :P
  275. lovetox i think we can conclude that there is no general architecture in poezio that says we handle stanzas only after a disco.
  276. lovetox i think in xmpp it was never needed to disco a contact
  277. lovetox you receive something from a jid, look at the type, and open a chat
  278. lovetox you dont care if its a groupchat or normal chat, or a gateway
  279. pep. fwiw my comment above was because you asked how to know what the jid refers to
  280. pep. Sure there are cases you don't really care and you display a generic tab
  281. lovetox yes, and that seem to be my fault, i thought, hey lets write code under the assumption we always know what a JID is
  282. lovetox seems the smarter way is, write code that does not care what a JID is
  283. lovetox you probably should always write at least 2 xmpp clients
  284. lovetox one where you learn everything that does not work, and one where you do it right :D
  285. flow they say the same things about building a house
  286. lovetox maybe we should write such a "Falsehoods XMPP developers believe" article
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  298. emus lovetox: If that's meant serious I would support it :-)
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  303. flow we should also try to improve the situation when developing new protocols
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  390. lovetox did any one ever think about just droping private message altogether
  391. lovetox is it such an essential feature?
  392. lovetox like could we live without it
  393. lovetox does any of the other big messengers has this? whatsapp, telegram, signal, matrix?
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  397. pep. I'm not sure Gajim could live without it. But something like Snikket definitely could
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  413. MattJ The problem is that XMPP 1) has public channels and 2) tries to keep participant identitifiers hidden in such channels
  414. MattJ Pretty much all other platforms either don't do public channels, or don't hide identifiers
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  417. MattJ But in this context only are MUC PMs useful. But it's not impossible to find a better alternative at the protocol level.
  418. lovetox i guess its half ok now with everyone adding the identifier that its a muc pm
  419. lovetox it was total insanity before
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  421. lovetox the problem is also that i nowhere care about resources anymore
  422. lovetox like for a normal chat message, i cast it to bare, i dont save the resource or do anything with it
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  425. lovetox aynway other topic
  426. lovetox corrections, if i correct a message, then it replaces the other one
  427. lovetox how does this work with stuff like receipts and chat markers
  428. lovetox say i send a message, and then i correct it
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  430. lovetox do i expect to get a receipt/chatmarker with the message id for the correction?
  431. lovetox or with the message id from the original message?
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  474. adx is there some mechanism that allows MAM queries to be handled from some other entity? so far i only found xep-0442, but it doesn't seem to be implemented anywhere
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