jdev - 2022-09-06

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  463. lovetox does anyone implement that sasl method pinning
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  465. lovetox sounds to me very risky in an enviroment where inexpierienced people set up home servers
  466. lovetox it probably will make the client non-functional for many users because of server misconfigurations
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  468. lovetox not sure what the treatmodel is .. to do any shenanigans with sasl someone would need to mitm your tls connection, and then he wants to break scram? why ...
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  476. Sam Channel binding with the -PLUS variant has anti-downgrade preventions built in, IIRC, so mechanism pinning is less useful there. However, if you're not using the -PLUS variants for whatever reason you need some mechanism to ensure that you can't be downgraded to PLAIN, for example. This is where pinning comes in. It probably has other applications that I haven't thought of, but this was the main one IIRC.
  477. Sam Generally speaking I feel like it's generally a bad idea to randomly accept that the server is providing lower security mechanisms. The very few inexperienced people who will host their own servers are probably a tiny number of people and aren't worth weakening security for a very unlikely UX problem.
  478. Sam Especially when it's an easy thing to provide a helpful error message for, so it's not even really a bad UX.
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  480. Zash Although you probably need to account for PLUS with tls-unique going away when going from TLS 1.2 to 1.3 until tls-exporter gets widely deployed...
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  488. lovetox The question was why someone that already has the capabilities of breaking my tls connection, and can read all my traffic, needs to know my password
  489. pulkomandy Then it can use your password to connect to the real server and impersonate you?
  490. Sam MITM is hard. Getting a password and connecting yourself from anywhere in the world you want makes it easier to repeatedly do whatever it was you were doing later.
  491. lovetox downgrade attacke would mean he can inject stanzas into the connection
  492. lovetox so he can already impersonate me
  493. lovetox so the whole treatmodel is for that is: "It does not really save you from anything bad, but maybe it makes it harder for the attacker to do it more than once" ?
  494. Sam Sure, but they can start a new connection whenever if they gave your password. Or log into your email when you reuse passwords.
  495. lovetox does not really convince me to annoy users and write hundreds of lines of code that can be buggy and fail
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  497. lovetox how can PLUS variant have downgrade prevention?
  498. lovetox sounds impossible
  499. Zash SCRAM has a flag where the client says whether it thinks the server offers PLUS, if it doesn't match expectations on the server it fails
  500. MattJ In SCRAM the client reports whether it supports channel binding, so the server can fail authentication if it offered PLUS but the client didn't use it (e.g. because the attacker removed it from the mechanism list)
  501. MattJ That
  502. lovetox but this does not prevent the case with PLAIN described above by Sam
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  504. MattJ Correct
  505. lovetox so is this just about PLAIN? i should not downgrade to PLAIN, but everything else doesnt matter
  506. moparisthebest Thousands of XMPP developer hours spent on protecting the user password from the server, still no real world use. SCRAM has played us for fools.
  507. MattJ I think SCRAM is cool. I think channel binding crosses the line into cryptographic overengineering.
  508. moparisthebest It's awesome and absolutely critical in a world where TLS isn't used
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  510. moparisthebest But for the last decade or so...
  511. Zash Detecting TLS MITM is kinda cool tho
  512. MattJ Zash: it is, but......
  513. MattJ When does TLS MITM happen in reality?
  514. moparisthebest If the TLS mitm has a valid cert it's good
  515. Zash In the evil reverse proxies!!!11
  516. MattJ TLS MITM basically only happens when it's intentional, e.g. corporate networks and such
  517. MattJ And people still want their chat apps to work
  518. Zash Evil corporate DPI boxes!
  519. MattJ But we'll prevent them from connecting and people will blame^Wcheer XMPP from the rooftops
  520. MattJ But sure, 0.5% of people would prefer it not to work
  521. MattJ So I'm glad channel binding exists for them 🙂
  522. Martin > TLS MITM basically only happens when it's intentional, e.g. corporate networks and such > And people still want their chat apps to work I don't think you should install your chat app on the company device.
  523. moparisthebest 100% what Martin said
  524. MattJ Martin: even if it's for work purposes?
  525. moparisthebest And presumably if you do, you want it to function
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  527. Martin Then the company IT department should assure it's working.
  528. moparisthebest And it's a work account so your company already knows the password
  529. MattJ This whole discussion is about making sure they can't make it work
  530. Zash Weren't XMPP only used for private chat anyway? 🙂
  531. MattJ That's what MITM detection does
  532. Zash The IT department already deployed Matri^W Slack.
  533. Martin Probably worse. Teams.
  534. Zash or BOTH
  535. Zash all while the IT department uses IRC internally
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  539. pep. "MattJ> TLS MITM basically only happens when it's intentional, e.g. corporate networks and such" or states using valid gmail.com certs. (/me looking at France)
  540. moparisthebest pep.: What do you mean
  541. pep. That was some time ago, and they got spotted quickly I assume, I'm looking for the link. This kind of stuff happens anyway, it's not just corporate networks. CA mafia and all.
  542. Zash https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc1925.html#section-2 > It Has To Work.
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  544. moparisthebest DNSSEC is the fix for that
  545. moparisthebest Well, and other lesser things, cert transparency log, CAA etc
  546. Zash DNSSEC transparency log when?
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  548. pep. "Zash> all while the IT department uses IRC internally" redundancy :P
  549. pep. If Slack fails they still have something that works
  550. Zash We humans sure do love stating the obvious, don't we 🙂
  551. pep. I was doing the same with s/IRC/XMPP/
  552. pep. ssshhh
  553. moparisthebest IRC is for sure the second best group chat after XMPP, everything else is far worse
  554. pep. Zash: We humans use weird methods to communicate that don't guarantee the same interpretation :)
  555. Zash Sacrebleu!
  556. pep. Anybody doing https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0225.html btw
  557. pep. (I guess not)
  558. Zash '114 works Good Enough, so not much demand I guess
  559. pep. Not storing credentials on the server for bridges, that's the use-case
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  561. MattJ How does 225 help?
  562. pep. You'd be able to store that client-side
  563. pep. A client-side component
  564. Zash What?
  565. MattJ How?
  566. Zash Who?
  567. pep. Well the thing is that the server still has to have DNS etc. setup :/
  568. pep. So yeah it's not perfect
  569. pep. Suggestions welcome
  570. MattJ Just run over a client connection
  571. MattJ If it's about a single user
  572. pep. Multiprotocol client?
  573. moparisthebest You'd need a way to request a dedicated domain from the server, you could do that pretty easily with wildcards (DNS and cert) but the abuse potential is massive
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  575. pep. MattJ, "run over a client connection", what does that mean
  576. pep. reuse it?
  577. pep. Technically the server could spoof the domain, it doesn't need to be declared right
  578. pep. If it's just over c2s
  579. MattJ Correct
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  582. moparisthebest So that's just my echo component thing
  583. pep. Except having a client-side component could echo itself (to all clients). A client-only-thing needs the echo thing
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  596. moparisthebest Right, but server just needs the echo thing, and any clients can use it for whatever protocol they want
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