jdev - 2022-09-09


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  985. lovetox in the MAM Xep there is a stable flag the MAM Service can set
  986. lovetox is there any client out there that does anything with that info
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  990. lovetox i mean the text basically says the results are useless
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  992. lovetox they can change in sequence and in *content*
  993. lovetox i mean how bad can it get lol
  994. lovetox basically as a client i would drop all messages from that query, what am i expected to do here?
  995. lovetox display the user some content, but tell him, hey this can be all gone and totally changed in a minunte
  996. lovetox display the user some content, but tell him, hey this can be all gone and totally changed in a minute
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  1002. lovetox also weird, it only tells me in the <fin> element
  1003. lovetox means i have to process all messages, only to find out they maybe in the wrong order or content is not correct
  1004. lovetox or messages are missing etc
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  1007. lovetox ok wait the <fin> element is on each page
  1008. lovetox so thats fine
  1009. lovetox so my approach would be, get a page which is unstable, abort the query drop everything, show the user the archive has some problem and gajim will try to fetch messages in a minute again?
  1010. Zash show the results in the chat view, but don't save them in the local database? like a "thin client"
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  1013. lovetox why would i show the user possible incomplete content, with possibly wrong order and missing messages inbetween
  1014. lovetox i consider that worse than "hey there is a problem, wait a minute"
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  1017. lovetox hey i fetched some content, but its incomplete, but here is a little teaser of what awaits you :D
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  1019. MattJ lovetox: I understand your pain, but there are situations where this is needed. Throwing the results away if you don't think your client architecture is capable of handling this is certainly an option.
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  1021. lovetox MattJ, there is no pain, im just in a whining mood :D
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  1023. lovetox anyway, im really interested if *any* client implements tha
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  1028. MattJ It came up recently in the context of the Matrix bridge
  1029. lovetox anyway, im really interested if *any* client implements that
  1030. lovetox or does something special with it
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  1033. MattJ On Matrix, rooms are distributed. Messages can happen simultaneously on two disconnected servers. When they finally federate successfully, the history is merged.
  1034. MattJ That's the extreme example, but the less extreme example happens every day: sometimes it is not disconnected, but just a little slow
  1035. MattJ It can lead to "interesting" results via the bridge
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  1041. Zash And it couldn't have used the local received order, with like delay stamps to indicate the time discrepancy?
  1042. Zash Then it would have been just like when messages get delayed by stream management or stuff
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  1045. lovetox no Zash, with have no order attribute with MAM
  1046. lovetox timestamp != order
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  1048. lovetox the messages have to be in the correct sequence delivered from MAM
  1049. lovetox i dont see a use case other than "drop this request and wait"
  1050. lovetox except if you are a thin client, without database, i guess it doesnt matter
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  1052. lovetox you display all messages, and a minute later clear the whole view and do the request again
  1053. TheRealkarano has joined
  1054. lovetox but then again, why would i show an incomplete chat
  1055. lovetox i see no benefit
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  1143. flow wouldn't it be better to show an incomplete chat instead of showing no chat?
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  1211. lovetox not in my opinion
  1212. lovetox i see everyday how serious people treat chat
  1213. lovetox like its an absolute katastrophe if a message is missed
  1214. pep. I'd rather have an incomplete chat than not being able to talk at all fwiw
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  1219. lovetox im not sure how "talking" factors into that
  1220. lovetox im not saying i quit the application and let people not talk anymore
  1221. lovetox what i would do is showing a message, that the archive request failed and we try in a minute again
  1222. lovetox you free to talk of course :)
  1223. lovetox but thats maybe a bit of baggage from my work life
  1224. Maranda lovetox: FWIW I don't think the approach has to be changed, I'd take it as: I see the flag I check more often, I don't see it I just stuff it in the db with less to no invalidation. Deduplication eventually should sort all the rest.
  1225. Maranda (Because SIDs still have to remain stable)
  1226. Maranda (Because SIDs still have to remain a stable reference to start from)
  1227. lovetox no deduplication does not fix it, because MAM archive convey order with the order the messages arrive at the client
  1228. lovetox the only way would be, to mark the messages in the db, then delete all of them on the query that works later
  1229. lovetox or not write it to the db at all and keep it in cache or something
  1230. Maranda Tbh I always found this stream order arrival strictness *very stupid* in XMPP
  1231. lovetox its not a design decision
  1232. lovetox as i remember it, there is one use case where you can build a cluster of xmpp servers
  1233. lovetox and have a distributed archive or something
  1234. Maranda Indeed
  1235. lovetox and then they didnt want to make the server have some global order mechanism
  1236. lovetox and now we have that :)
  1237. lovetox although probably 0,01% uses a xmpp cluster
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  1239. lovetox although i dont really understand how such a cluster can restore the order, if he doesnt know it somehow
  1240. lovetox and if he knows the order he could also put it into the stanza id
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  1242. lovetox ah i think i remember the cluster doesnt know the order
  1243. lovetox ejabberd has microseconds as stanza id or something
  1244. lovetox and they just hope that works good enough
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  1246. Maranda well Matrix has 2 timestamp references, origin_server_ts which equals to the timestamp when the original server sent the event, age which is the time that lapsed in ms from when that event was actually processed (locally)
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  1249. Maranda and that looks to be a rather *convenient* approach to deal with timeline ordering
  1250. lovetox yeah, timestamp sorting should be enough
  1251. lovetox if the timestamp has a good resolution
  1252. lovetox now im not sure if seconds is good enough
  1253. lovetox and there is nothing that says a server needs to provide a ms timestamp with mam messages
  1254. lovetox if we got ms resolution, then i guess its a 1 in a million that 2 messages have the same timestamp
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  1259. lovetox and we could further say, those two messages are not a response to each other
  1260. lovetox so does it really matter in which order they are
  1261. lovetox this would really simplify the whole thing
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  1263. lovetox i do currently request the messages from my db with timestamp sorted, but with the additional benefit that if timestamps are the same, then insert order in the db counts
  1264. lovetox and insert order depends on message received order
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  1274. Maranda anyways even if that's controversial because re-ordering the archive indeedly breaks the RFC, I think the case that I hypothesized concerto/fugata possibly experienced is *really* cornerish and missing messages mostly depends on other factors e.g. spam filter or stringprep (which I now fixed) for example more than that
  1275. Maranda (I never had Gajim jinx me with it for example, and I do almost all testing with it)
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  1277. Maranda (I never had Gajim jinx me with it, and I do almost all testing with it)
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