jdev - 2023-01-23

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  12. rom1dep

    I'm willing to die on this hill, though, that a client that "shows you something but sends something else to the rest of the world, and gives no indication of it" isn't one that most people would want to trust with their messages

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  66. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    Completely agree

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  104. MattJ

    Well, welcome to XMPP. It sounds like a network with a diverse ecosystem of software isn't what you're looking for 🙂

  105. MattJ

    I only ever see links in my (terminal-based) client

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  109. jonas’

    MattJ, "shows you something and sends something else" is different from "sends something which other clients may intrepret less fancily"

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  111. MSavoritias (fae,ve)


  112. jonas’

    (the first sounds like a violation of intent, while the second is, indeed, what you'd expect in a federated network)

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  115. rom1dep

    > (the first sounds like a violation of intent, while the second is, indeed, what you'd expect in a federated network) 👆

  116. Menel

    With message retraction, the retracting client shows, "it has been deleted", but my client will show the original and a message about the attempt ¯\_ (ツ) _/¯

  117. MSavoritias (fae,ve)


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  121. MattJ

    jonas’ [08:48]: > MattJ, "shows you something and sends something else" is different from "sends something which other clients may intrepret less fancily" Sorry, I don't see a distinction in practice. Either way you can't guarantee what someone is going to see on the other side.

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  123. jonas’

    MattJ, the first one at least tries

  124. jonas’

    the first case sounds like the order of magnitude of a client adding a "not" before every verb.

  125. jonas’

    (but only on the wire)

  126. MattJ

    That's not what is happening in the issue that sparked this discussion though

  127. MattJ

    What Dino sends on the wire matches what it displays to the user

  128. jonas’

    scrollback, how does it work

  129. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    But it is seen as a "bug" which is what was discussed here

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  131. MattJ

    Yeah, and I think it's a stretch to call it a bug

  132. jonas’

    it's a bug if it violates user expectations, isn't it?

  133. MattJ

    To be clear the two cases are mod_pastebin changing long text to a link, and mod_restrict_media stripping oob tags

  134. lovetox

    i never understood the word bug as violating user expactations

  135. lovetox

    a bug is when the software does not what the *developer* intended

  136. MattJ

    Every user has different expectations

  137. lovetox

    not what the user wished it would do

  138. jonas’

    so we're talking about the <oob/> removal?

  139. jonas’


  140. MattJ

    They're both the same category I believe

  141. jonas’

    I would wish for dino to show what the server did, because that also helps with servers which *have* to change even the text (looking at you, biboumi)

  142. jonas’

    are there words in modernxmpp on this topic?

  143. jonas’

    seems like there should be, i.e. "what to do if the MUC reflection differs from what we sent"

  144. MattJ

    It's not covered there, no

  145. jonas’ puts it on his now actually existing todo list

  146. MattJ

    I doubt it would sway larma if it was 🙂

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  148. jonas’

    may or may not, but "we" should form a consensus on what clients should do nontheless, IMO

  149. lovetox

    but the biboumi stuff is weird

  150. lovetox

    so it splits my message in 3

  151. lovetox

    does one of the 3 messages actually have the message id i added?

  152. Kev

    What the server sends is the definitive form. I think it's fine for clients to show the sent form until the definitive form is received, as long as they mark it as transient and replace it when received.

  153. lovetox

    biboumi is kind of special case, its not mere rewriting a body or message

  154. lovetox

    it adds a inifinite amount of new messages instead

  155. jonas’

    lovetox, yes, all have message IDs, and the first one will be clearly associated to your original message

  156. MattJ

    Kev, except that's not written anywhere

  157. Kev

    Sure. It was a response to Jonas asking for what we should do.

  158. jonas’

    (via origin-id passing or @id passing)

  159. lovetox

    that would actually be a good use of origin id?

  160. lovetox

    if all 3 new message have the origin-id set to the original message-id?

  161. MattJ

    Hah, making origin-id not unique? That would be great :P

  162. jonas’

    dear lord

  163. lovetox


  164. jonas’

    but eh

  165. jonas’

    I'm on board with that

  166. jonas’

    but how would you know the splitting of your message had completed....

  167. lovetox

    but yeah .. this is problematic i think gajim also expects only one message in the database with a unique origin id

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  172. flow

    why not add an element to the reflected parts: <split-from origin-id="foo" part="1"/>?

  173. jonas’

    would wfm

  174. Menel

    Only for bimboumi? Does it change anything for anyone?

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  178. flow

    maybe some can put this information to good use, maybe not. but it appears trivial to add, so it seems worth a try, err experiment

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