jdev - 2023-08-21

MattJ do you know of any server that does something with RAA data? I'd be interested in seeing if things interop nicely.

Guus: I have some prototype implementations somewhere, I can put something up for testing

Possibly later today, or more likely tomorrow

No rush. I'm on holiday, with limited time away from kids, pools and other attention drains. This message is coming to you from aside a pool. 😎

envy

A pool of messages?

https://igniterealtime.org/httpfileupload/N1Qn6FdnZyfA2kHnZR9wComU6VE/P5NU7IhlQ_adqtWdorL_-A.jpg

Nope.

Nice!

larma, we’re going to xHain, will you be there tonight?

Link Mauve, I didn't plan to, but I can make it happen!

Why dont we use RDF databases instead of SQL for messaging apps? because with corrections and everything it seems that it is basically a graph full of interconnected things is it not?

I mean, there's no rules. Prosody uses by default a text file

If you have a good RDF db in your stack, why not?

so it could be done. hmm. because i am thinking it could help a lot with relations.

especially regarding replies, reactions, edits and everything

and the other day a dev in here was saying about problems with ordering the messages. In the sense of getting a reaction or a deletion after you got the message and put in the row already. and then the ordering didnt make sense anymore

and there is a library for guile. nice

corrections is the only thing that is a bit graph like

nothing else comes to mind, its just always a message with some metadata

isnt it basically anything that attaches or modifies an existing message?

and even with corrections, even if you do 20 corrections, they point all to the same message, so dont know what you call that, a graph with depth 1

i dont know what the theoretical definition of a graph is

if its one thing points to another thing, and thats already a graph, then yeah i guess many things are a graph

but i doubt thats the point where you want to use things optimized for graphs ✏

with reactions its not one. you attach each participant that reacted to a message.

no, you attach N reactions to one message

its a classic 1:N relation

yeah but dont you say who reacted?

yes but this is metadata of the reaction, so you have a 1:1 releation to a JID table

or even no relation and simply store the jid

but anyway, i have no clue about graphs or databases for that, so maybe ignore me :D

heh. im doing all this reading because you said the other day that storage is important. So you already helped ^^

at least until now i didnt have the feeling im limited by the relational database

fair

but now you go me interested, seems one benefit of a graph database is, that you can add properties to the nodes without costly schema changes and migrations

yeah i read that too

and thats what at least happens from time to time with a new XEP, the message gets new metadata, so i need to add a new foreign key to a new table that holds this new information

and also there is no ordering problem to my understanding. like the problem you said the other day when you get a correction to message after having the message already in the db

also > Also they handle internationalised content better than typical SQL databases - e.g. you can have multiple values in different languages.

and the more advanced searching and connection finding could have some interesting usages

> also >> Also they handle internationalised content better than typical SQL databases - e.g. you can have multiple values in different languages. Or you could just design your SQL schema to do this ↺

Sounds like it's just a higher level tool, which comes with trade-offs, I'll be interested if you find it to be a better fit or not

but it seems graph databases focus on anlayzing relations, its particular for use cases, like fraud detection, where you can find patterns in the relations and analyze them

i dont see where we need something like that, in messaging its just always, when i load the data, give me everything related to this message

agreed for messaging it may be overkill

An SQL database often has a "graph of relations" too

i plan to make something else personally

Relational databases are relational???? :)

Well not prosody's schema 🤣

I worked on some relational DB at my job that were not that relationals

But that's another topic

i was vaccuming a lot and cleaning fake tables

did anyone implement the feature, that a user can send messages even when offline, and the client sends it later delayed?

Conversations has that

Does it? Sometimes it just errors for me and wants me to try again after disconnect

im a bit scared of it, seems like a thing where you walk in with a naive implementation and then you fix a year long bugs

It does have waiting though. So maybe just a bug somehow

> im a bit scared of it, seems like a thing where you walk in with a naive implementation and then you fix a year long bugs Why would it have year long bugs? ↺

dont know, its a feeling

seems like there are many things that can happen, you learn after implementing it

i guess single chat is easier, there is not really anything that can reject your messages, everything is just one way

but for MUC i think its not that easy, you send stuff out, and later learn if it really happend that way you want it

but maybe i should limit this to messages

stuff like reactions, message moderation, banning people etc, stuff that needs IQ flow, its tricky to display this later if it worked, or not

Hmm. I wonder how true it is. Because i planning to make an offline first client prepared for low and intermittent connectivity.

oh yeah, don't do it for iq flow stuff at least not in general case

singpolyma, and how does this work, you send out the xml but store it in the database at the same time?

or do you serialize some other object to the database?

or only store it in memory? and when the application crashes its gone?

With Conversations (and forks) outgoing message is stored in database before being sent over xmpp

do you use sm acks to notice that somethin successful was sent? ✏

I'm not completely sure, but that makes sense

like how would you otherwise know that a message in single chat was successfully sent?

in MUC its easier, as you will see a reflection

Right. I haven't been in that part of the code but I expect it's sm related

https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/elon-musk-says-blocking-feature-to-be-removed-from-twitter-how-it-can-impact-the-platform-4310829

> According to Google PlayStore, apps that contain or feature user-generated content (UGC), which include platforms like Twitter, Facebook, and Threads, must implement robust, effective, and ongoing UGC moderation. Google describes UGC as the content which is contributed to an app by users and which is accessible by “at least a subset of the app's users”.

So... All XMPP and email apps on Google play are in violation of this and Google just hasn't noticed yet?

I think UGC means public-ish and/or promoted by the app. So yes Conversations got hit by this for their public MUC search

web browsers get a pass probably because you have to know the url? so if you have to know the muc jid it's probably ok also

I'm not so sure they see it that way

Conversations directs you to create an account on conversations.im etc

Yes, but when a reviewer looks at your app how will they find the unmoderated content?

They won't, but a user can report it

I guess we'll find out if it comes to that

I am planing to maybe make a moderated / curated version of sjn partly because of this